help! should I withdraw my app?

[elementals]

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So here's the story.

I'm a PhD student at Stanford. I graduated from UC Berkeley in 2003 with a 3.5GPA (sucks, I know), got a 37R MCAT in 2002 and a 41T this Sept. Stanford GPA is around 3.67, I think... still not great :\ Advisor's a bit of a hardass, likes giving out A-'s, and I got a few B's in coursework. I don't have a single C or below on my transcript, just A's and B's. I don't have a lot of extracurriculars, just a few months of volunteering, but I do have plenty of research experience dating back to 2000. Unfortunately, I am not yet published (just two posters at a major neuroscience conference, plus a smattering of posters at minor conferences). But I do have a paper on the verge of submission and hopefully another not long behind it.

Soooo, a few weeks ago I figured with my scores and research experience, and with grad school hopefully wrapping up in a year, I might as well give it a go this admission cycle. I also ran a tentative graduate-in-a-year plan past my advisor, who was very enthusiastic about it, so I figured there wouldn't be much of a problem getting him to back my play, so to speak.

I turned in my app very late, 10/10/2008, and I'm only applying to 8 "dream schools". I figure if I don't get into them I'll give it my all next year, but if I do get in, then great! I didn't apply to any safety schools b/c I didn't want to end up going to one and always wonder if I could've done better for myself.

Basically my message in the app is "I'm a good researcher, but I don't want to stay in basic science because I think medical research is far more significant and important. I want to really bring research into the clinic, really use my abilities as a researcher to treat patients, which is why I want to go to medical school." Due to lack of publications though, I feel like I really need my recommendations (esp my advisor's) to say "so and so is an awesome scientist!!"

I got secondaries back from the insta-turnaround schools. AMCAS is still processing my app for the schools that actually look at it, though.

BUT, I just talked to my advisor last week and suddenly he's singing a different tune. He thinks 8-10 months is too short a span to be graduating, though I think it's feasible. However, because he's reluctant, he's basically saying if he writes me a rec' now, it won't be very enthusiastic. Or well, to put it in his words -- he won't be able to say "so and so is an accomplished scientist ready to tackle the problems of medicine!" He'll only be able to say "so and so is still in training."

Which, combined with my current lack of publications, I think reflects badly. Also I feel like I'm applying so late this year that I'm already at a disadvantage... throw in the fact that if I waited I could do some volunteering in the meantime, finish my papers, etc....

So I'm really starting to think maybe withdrawing the app this round is in my best interests, particularly since secondary deadlines are looming up so close. But my worries are:

1) Will withdrawing hurt my chances next year? Is there any way to explain that it's not indecision, it's feeling like I'm not ready?

2) Will NOT withdrawing and getting rejected hurt my chances next year?

3) I'm also worried that just giving up this year will make my advisor feel like he can walk all over me. What can I do to avoid that?

4) Is there any reason I SHOULDN'T withdraw, and should just see this through?

5) With my scores and grades, lack of EC's, a lukewarm rec from the advisor and hopefully better rec's from other professors, do I even stand a chance this year? I'm applying to like... pipedream schools *LOL* UCSF and the like.

Arrrgh, please help... I'm so stressed out that any advice is welcome. I'm really leaning toward W/Ding apps, but I'm also kinda loathe to do so when I've already put this much work and money and time into it.

 

[QofQuimica]

Sucky situation; I'm sorry. 🙁 But if your advisor is going to write you an unenthusiastic LOR, and especially if he says in his LOR that you won't graduate by May, you're probably SOL. There's no point in throwing away even more time and money on a bad investment, so I vote for cutting your losses and not completing the secondaries. Next year, you can tell the schools that you realized you weren't going to finish your PhD in time, and that's why you deferred applying for a year. It's a perfectly reasonable explanation, and you can spin it as part of your commitment to finishing the PhD.

The issue with your advisor walking all over you is a completely different one, and not one that is going to be solved by fighting with him on this battlefield. You need this person's help and support, and he doesn't need yours. Unfortunately, that doesn't put you in such a great bargaining position when it comes to forcing him to let you graduate early. If you're worried that he may do this again next year, you need to take some steps to make it more difficult for him to keep raising the bar. Have you met with your committee yet to plan out a graduation timeline? If not, do this ASAP. You need to have a plan, in writing, with the specific criteria (ex. projects finished, papers submitted) that they expect to see before they will graduate you. Then your job is to make sure that you meet every goal and deadline, no excuses and no exceptions. It will be a lot harder for him to renege later if you and your committee have already hammered out a plan and you hold up your end.

I wrote a sticky collecting threads for PhDs-to-MDs (check info sticky at top of this forum for link) that you might find useful. There is also a physician scientist forum (scroll down the list of forums); most of the people who post there are MD/PhD students, but there are a handful of folks like us. (I'm a PhD now in my third year of med school.) Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk about making the transition. Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[student1799]

If you're going to withdraw, do it NOW--before AMCAS even verifies your application. (Just log into your app, and on the main menu click the button that says "Withdraw Application.") Then I don't think it will count as applying, and you can start fresh next year. If you let them verify you and then don't do any secondaries, you'll still count as a reapplicant, and you'll have to write an essay explaining why, and how you've improved since last year.

 

[elementals]

Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated. I still agonizing over the decision but I'm probably going to withdraw... but ugh, I called the schools that auto-sent me their secondaries and they already count me as having applied. They say it won't count against me, but I'm still annoyed. F'ing hell!!

Just to find a devil's advocate... does anyone have reasons I *shouldn't* withdraw this year and instead apply with deferral in mind? My one thought is that if I'm gonna defer ANYWAY, I might as well give myself the extra year (or 8 months, at this point) to beef up my resume.

 

[skiqueen]

Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated. I still agonizing over the decision but I'm probably going to withdraw... but ugh, I called the schools that auto-sent me their secondaries and they already count me as having applied. They say it won't count against me, but I'm still annoyed. F'ing hell!!

Just to find a devil's advocate... does anyone have reasons I *shouldn't* withdraw this year and instead apply with deferral in mind? My one thought is that if I'm gonna defer ANYWAY, I might as well give myself the extra year (or 8 months, at this point) to beef up my resume.

Hi! Just read your post. I'm a stanford phd student right now too applying to med schools. Its possible we know each other 🙂 although I wasn't aware of any other phd students applying. Anyway, if you ever want to get together and chat about the whole app. process let me know. I do know that at most of my interviews so far they have asked me specifically when I am going to graduate, and seem glad when I tell them this coming may or june. I'm not sure if it would hurt your chances if you had to tell them during an interview that you were thinking of deferring. I would also say that even though we may soon have phds, at most interviews they care a lot about my involvment with community service projects and shadowing, so if you don't have some of these experiences on your resume, I would definitely recommend waiting a year. Best of luck during this process. Your MCAT is awesome and I'm sure you'll have a lot of succes this year or next.

 

[elementals]

wow, CRAZY, another stanford phd going for med!! LOL! now i'm all shifty-eyed, wondering which of my cohorts is secretly in my boat. mind if i ask what dept you're in? i'm in biological sciences.

 

[njbmd]

So I'm really starting to think maybe withdrawing the app this round is in my best interests, particularly since secondary deadlines are looming up so close. But my worries are:

1) Will withdrawing hurt my chances next year? Is there any way to explain that it's not indecision, it's feeling like I'm not ready?

2) Will NOT withdrawing and getting rejected hurt my chances next year?

3) I'm also worried that just giving up this year will make my advisor feel like he can walk all over me. What can I do to avoid that?

4) Is there any reason I SHOULDN'T withdraw, and should just see this through?

5) With my scores and grades, lack of EC's, a lukewarm rec from the advisor and hopefully better rec's from other professors, do I even stand a chance this year? I'm applying to like... pipedream schools *LOL* UCSF and the like.

Arrrgh, please help... I'm so stressed out that any advice is welcome. I'm really leaning toward W/Ding apps, but I'm also kinda loathe to do so when I've already put this much work and money and time into it.

"Safety schools" in medicine in this country do not exist. You likely need to change your thinking on this matter. When it comes to application to medical school, nothing is a "sure thing". There is a kind of perversity to the process that defies understanding.

You have already spent the money and put in the effort. Why don't you see where it goes? Withdrawing or reapplying does not affect your chances one way or the other. I have applicants who have been accepted that are in their third year of applying and made it in this year. Your worst case scenario is that you don't get in. Your best case scenario is that you do get in. Your chances depend on how you compare within the pool of applicants to the schools that you have applied to. You may stand out or you may not get anywhere. The crystal ball isn't giving out any answers right now because I didn't pay the electric bill. 😉

You DO come across as being a bit "flaky" with the "I'm not ready" kind of statements. If you were not ready, why did you apply? If you withdraw, then think about first having a solid reason for wanting to attend medical school (you can do medical research with a Ph.D) as I have several Ph.D post docs in my research lab currently who have NO interest in attending medical school. What will medical school do for you that you can't do with your current Ph.D?

The next thing that you want to do is shore up any other deficiencies that you may have in your application in terms of LORs, ECs, and shadowing. It's going to be important for you to carefully articulate your interest in medicine beyond research. Since you have attended graduate school, most folks on the admissions committee will "get" your interest in research. It's the other aspects of medicine that you need to nail down (the ones that do not involve the lab).

 

[CultureDoc]

With my scores and grades, lack of EC's, a lukewarm rec from the advisor and hopefully better rec's from other professors, do I even stand a chance this year? I'm applying to like... pipedream schools *LOL* UCSF and the like.

I think the lukewarm rec is probably a deal-breaker. If I were in your place, as much as this sucks, I'd withdraw the app, work on the ECs/volunteering/etc., work hard on your PhD, get a fantastic LOR from your advisor, and apply in June. I think you'll feel much more confident about your chances at these schools if you have an early app next year with more ECs/pubs/glowing recs/etc. (And you'll save yourself a bunch of secondary $ this year).

Just my $0.02. with everything!

 

[French MD]

IMHO withdrawing is quitting. And med schools HATE quiters. This does not mean you won;t get in, I know someone that was in the same boat quit his phd to go to med. THis was brought up in every interview he went to, he got in at the end, but be prepared to explain.