help! smp? masters?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

rbk8

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
So here's the story. My gpa blows (~2.6) and I know I am not getting into any med school in the US. The question is what can I do? I've heard of SMPs and post bac programs but most that I've seen say that your gpa has to be atleast a 3.0...even though they are supposed to help you increase your gpa right? So any suggestions? What am I supposed to do next? Should I just do a regular master's degree...anyone know any schools that will accept my low gpa?


help!!!

-rbk
 
what was your major in? Did you take all of the science pre-reqs yet? If not, do that. If you did, re-take them!!
 
Hmm, are your grades even c's and b's or do you have a few awful grades? If you have just a few awful ones (like a years worth?) retake them and apply DO. If you have a more even C's and B's then try SMP. I think some of the less "prestigious" schools have SMP's that accept lower than 3.0 (marshall university comes to mind....)
 
Doing a SMP with a 2.6 GPA will be an exercise in futility because 1) it won't raise your undergrad GPA because it's a masters program, and 2) even if you could get in and do well, you won't be competitive for med schools. Consider the Caribbean if you want to start right away or postbac for a few years + SMP if you really want to go to school in the US.
 
I'd go the retake route and then DO. i wouldnt be comfy with the 50-60k on post-bac + SMP with no guarantee
 
Well, I spoke to my adviser who recommended that I do a Master's in something then apply to schools. Although he stated that I should still take my MCAT and get my LOR because those will last that long until I apply after my master's....what do you guys think about that?

What would be a good area to do my masters in? I've heard that MPH isn't a good idea. What do you reccomend?
 
Well, I spoke to my adviser who recommended that I do a Master's in something then apply to schools. Although he stated that I should still take my MCAT and get my LOR because those will last that long until I apply after my master's....what do you guys think about that?

What would be a good area to do my masters in? I've heard that MPH isn't a good idea. What do you reccomend?

I don't recommend getting a masters.
 
So here's the story. My gpa blows (~2.6) and I know I am not getting into any med school in the US. The question is what can I do? I've heard of SMPs and post bac programs but most that I've seen say that your gpa has to be atleast a 3.0...even though they are supposed to help you increase your gpa right? So any suggestions? What am I supposed to do next? Should I just do a regular master's degree...anyone know any schools that will accept my low gpa?

OP: I've been through this (graduated with a 2.8). This response is long, but read it through.

First, to clarify terms:

A formal post-bac: This is a fromal program, offered by a handful of universities, designed to let people who graduated without having fulfilled the premedical requirements complete those requirements in the shortest possible amount of time. The best of these programs also have linkages to top medical schools (and are geared towards people who graduated with near perfect GPAs). This is not what you want.

An informal post-bac program: This is a fancy way of saying that you're staying in undergrad longer to get your GPA to a more respectable level. This is an option for you. Take more classes, or just retake the ones you screwed up the first time around.

Special Masters Programs: These are 1 year programs, offered at about half a dozen medical schools, which allow students to take classes with, and be graded against, medical students at that school. They have nothing to do wth a normal masters degree, and serve no purpose other than to help you get into medical school. These programs almost all run for 1 year, cost a lot of money, and are billed as an 'audition' for medical school. Most of these programs have very high (>75%) success rates at getting their students into medical school, which translates to just about 100% of the students that did well in the program. Most SMPs also have some sort of guarentee to admit, or at least interview, the very top students in the program. A few SMPs (generally refered to as 'high linkage' SMPs) admit more than 75% of their students into the followng year's medical school class. For obvious reasons, these are some of the most competitive programs to get admitted to.

Generally SMPs are geared towards people who have 'unbalanced' applications, meaning a high MCAT and low GPA or, more rarely, a low MCAT with multiple retakes and a high GPA. Obviously the lower your GPA the higher your MCAT needs to be to make up for it and vice versa. Most Special Masters programs won't admit you with less than a 3.0 unless you have a truely stellar MCAT, and won't admit you with less than a 2.75 under any cirumstances. So if you're interested in doing this chances are you need to improve your cumulative GPA first. An SMP program doesn't actually increase your undergraduate GPA, but your grades in the program will be weighted, by ADCOMs, as or more highly than your entire ugrad GPA combined.

BTW people who have screwed up in SMPs have reported back that after that their applications were basically unsalvagable, so if you go the SMP route view this as the very last thing you're going to do to improve your application, one way or the other.

General Advice:

1) Don't listen to your premedical advisor. Advisors are varying degrees of unhelpful if you're a good candidate for medical school, but they're all pretty much all equally and completely useless if your application sucks. They'll either advise you to give up or tell you to do something that won't help at all in terms of improving your app (like a traditional masters program). Politely ignore them.

2) Don't do a tradiational masters or an MPH. The experience of the (many, many) people on SDN who have been in your situation is that medical school ADCOMs barely even consider grades from a Masters degree. It might help for an aplicant that was otherwise borderline, but if your GPA is awful it won't help at all. For practical purposes the only grades ADCOMs care about are from undergrad and from other medical schools (via SMPs).

3) Don't do ANYTHING until you've figured out why you got a 2.6 in the first place and have corrected the problem. Otherwise anything you do will only be digging the hole deeper.

Plans of attack:

the way I see it, you have 4 options

1) Get your GPA up to a 3.0 (or maybe a 2.8 if you can really kill the MCAT) over the next year or three calculating your GPA without grade replacement. Then do an SMP. Go to a US MD or DO school.

2) Redo all the classes you did really badly in. Get your GPA up to a 3.4 (or maybe a 3.2 if you can really kill the MCAT) calculated using only your most recent grade in a given course. Apply to, and go to, a DO school.

3) Finish your prereqs if you haven't yet, get a decent MCAT, apply to the 'big 4' Caribbean schools, and start maybe as early as this coming spring. The problem here is that the Caribben has both high fail out rates (fail a single class and you're done) and a very low match rate for residency (not getting a residency means your degree is pretty much worthless). If you're not at the top of your game you're going to burried under a mound of debt you'll never escape from and you'll never get another shot to be a doctor. The upside is, if you finish and get residency, your degree will be just as good as anyone else's and you'll be a doctor only 4 years from now. This is probably the best option if you come from money, otherwise I'd recommend against it.

4) Consider another career. Seriously, this job is good but it ain't great. Have you looked at nursing? PA school? Business? Engineering? The military? Just getting in to medical school is going to take several years for you unless you go Caribbean, and then it's at least 7 years until you can practice for a decent salary. Also if you try this every year of application improvement is going to cost quite a bit of $$, and you might not get in at all. Do you really care that much about a white coat?

Anyway, G'luck, whatever you choose.
 
Last edited:
OP: I've been through this (graduated with a 2.8). This response is long, but read it through.

First, to clarify terms:

A formal post-bac: This is a fromal program, offered by a handful of universities, designed to let people who graduated without having fulfilled the premedical requirements complete those requirements in the shortest possible amount of time. The best of these programs also have linkages to top medical schools (and are geared towards people who graduated with near perfect GPAs). This is not what you want.

An informal post-bac program: This is a fancy way of saying that you're staying in undergrad longer to get your GPA to a more respectable level. This is an option for you. Take more classes, or just retake the ones you screwed up the first time around.

Special Masters Programs: These are 1 year programs, offered at about half a dozen medical schools, which allow students to take classes with, and be graded against, medical students at that school. They have nothing to do wth a normal masters degree, and serve no purpose other than to help you get into medical school. These programs almost all run for 1 year, cost a lot of money, and are billed as an 'audition' for medical school. Most of these programs have very high (>75%) success rates at getting their students into medical school, which translates to just about 100% of the students that did well in the program. Most SMPs also have some sort of guarentee to admit, or at least interview, the very top students in the program. A few SMPs (generally refered to as 'high linkage' SMPs) admit more than 75% of their students into the followng year's medical school class. For obvious reasons, these are some of the most competitive programs to get admitted to.

Generally SMPs are geared towards people who have 'unbalanced' applications, meaning a high MCAT and low GPA or, more rarely, a low MCAT with multiple retakes and a high GPA. Obviously the lower your GPA the higher your MCAT needs to be to make up for it and vice versa. Most Special Masters programs won't admit you with less than a 3.0 unless you have a truely stellar MCAT, and won't admit you with less than a 2.75 under any cirumstances. So if you're interested in doing this chances are you need to improve your cumulative GPA first. An SMP program doesn't actually increase your undergraduate GPA, but your grades in the program will be weighted, by ADCOMs, as or more highly than your entire ugrad GPA combined.

BTW people who have screwed up in SMPs have reported back that after that their applications were basically unsalvagable, so if you go the SMP route view this as the very last thing you're going to do to improve your application, one way or the other.

General Advice:

1) Don't listen to your premedical advisor. Advisors are varying degrees of unhelpful if you're a good candidate for medical school, but they're all pretty much all equally and completely useless if your application sucks. They'll either advise you to give up or tell you to do something that won't help at all in terms of improving your app (like a traditional masters program). Politely ignore them.

2) Don't do a tradiational masters or an MPH. The experience of the (many, many) people on SDN who have been in your situation is that medical school ADCOMs barely even consider grades from a Masters degree. It might help for an aplicant that was otherwise borderline, but if your GPA is awful it won't help at all. For practical purposes the only grades ADCOMs care about are from undergrad and from other medical schools (via SMPs).

3) Don't do ANYTHING until you've figured out why you got a 2.6 in the first place and have corrected the problem. Otherwise anything you do will only be digging the hole deeper.

Plans of attack:

the way I see it, you have 4 options

1) Get your GPA up to a 3.0 (or maybe a 2.8 if you can really kill the MCAT) over the next year or three calculating your GPA without grade replacement. Then do an SMP. Go to a US MD or DO school.

2) Redo all the classes you did really badly in. Get your GPA up to a 3.4 (or maybe a 3.2 if you can really kill the MCAT) calculated using only your most recent grade in a given course. Apply to, and go to, a DO school.

3) Finish your prereqs if you haven't yet, get a decent MCAT, apply to the 'big 4' Caribbean schools, and start maybe as early as this coming spring. The problem here is that the Caribben has both high fail out rates (fail a single class and you're done) and a very low match rate for residency (not getting a residency means your degree is pretty much worthless). If you're not at the top of your game you're going to burried under a mound of debt you'll never escape from and you'll never get another shot to be a doctor. The upside is, if you finish and get residency, your degree will be just as good as anyone else's and you'll be a doctor only 4 years from now. This is probably the best option if you come from money, otherwise I'd recommend against it.

4) Consider another career. Seriously, this job is good but it ain't great. Have you looked at nursing? PA school? Business? Engineering? The military? Just getting in to medical school is going to take several years for you unless you go Caribbean, and then it's at least 7 years until you can practice for a decent salary. Also if you try this every year of application improvement is going to cost quite a bit of $$, and you might not get in at all. Do you really care that much about a white coat?

Anyway, G'luck, whatever you choose.


Wow that was a good response! I have thought about alternate careers but what it comes down to is some form of medicine. I've spent so much time in the field that I absolutely love it. I've thought about PA school very seriously because I think it's great--much less time and more flexibility in terms of family life/travel etc. However the thing holding me back again is my GPA. Does anyone know any schools that would accept a GPA under 3.0?

I've also thought about carribbean schools however I don't think I would be able to put myself through 2 years in the Carribbean & the fact that so many people find it difficult for placement in the US. Not mention I'm not made of money. Re-doing all the classes I've done bad in would be like starting from scratch and take longer than I would like to spend as an undergrad.

I am taking the MCAT in June, and have one year left. So basically, everyone thinks I shouldn't even apply to schools unless its the Carribbean.
 
I agree that SMP or master's programs are a bad idea for someone in your situation.
Aside from the fact that you need to get your undergrad GPA up, you really need to show that you can do well in the prerequisites.
You don't need to re-take ALL of your classes, but you do need to re-take the pre-med prerequisites that you did poorly in. Some schools even have rules that they don't count a prereq as completed for admission if you got below a certain grade.
If you retake only those classes you will kill 2 birds with 1 stone: get your undergrad GPA up and prove that you can do well in science classes.
Hope this helps 🙂
 
If you can, retake some of the classes that are dragging down your GPA
(and improve) in addition to taking the pre-reqs you need, you have a good shot at D.O. school. The D.O. centralized app replaces grades in your GPA when you retake a course, whereas the M.D. GPA just averages in both times you took the course. Accordingly, if you retake anything in which you got an F or D, or even a C, your GPA can get quite a boost even in just one or two years. This is something you cannot do with Master's courses.

Unfortunately, I think to *replace* courses, I *THINK* you have to retake the course at the same school so that it's exactly the same. I don't think my GPA was boosted by replacement of my intro chem grade on my D.O. app--I took it twice, but at two different schools...you may want to call/read guidelines from AACOMAS to confirm whether or not you have to stay at your undergrad institution.
 
If you can, retake some of the classes that are dragging down your GPA
(and improve) in addition to taking the pre-reqs you need, you have a good shot at D.O. school. The D.O. centralized app replaces grades in your GPA when you retake a course, whereas the M.D. GPA just averages in both times you took the course. Accordingly, if you retake anything in which you got an F or D, or even a C, your GPA can get quite a boost even in just one or two years. This is something you cannot do with Master's courses.

Unfortunately, I think to *replace* courses, I *THINK* you have to retake the course at the same school so that it's exactly the same. I don't think my GPA was boosted by replacement of my intro chem grade on my D.O. app--I took it twice, but at two different schools...you may want to call/read guidelines from AACOMAS to confirm whether or not you have to stay at your undergrad institution.


is it worth retaking courses you got a D in if you end up just getting a C?
or a C to get a B?
 
is it worth retaking courses you got a D in if you end up just getting a C? or a C to get a B?

I think opinion on that's going to be pretty mixed.
But do you KNOW you can only achieve that small of an improvement?
Assuming you will apply to D.O. schools, if any of those grades are in prerequisites or most BCMP classes, I would still suggest it. Remember that for a AACOMAS BCMP GPA, they will drop the lowest of the two grades if you retake the class...so if you retook all your C and D courses and went up even to just B's and C's...what's your GPA going to look like?

Can you give a detailed description of what courses your C's and D's are in?
Are they from humanities? Upper level science classes? Pre-med pre-reqs?
Why are you getting the C's and D's? And why do you think you'll only raise them to B's and C's?--what kind of school are you at (highly competitive, community college, etc.) and are your grades near the average there?

But if you really can't pull your D's up above a C, depending on what courses they're in, you could make your application worse...you should show more improvement the 2nd time you take a course, and if you have such a small step up in all of your courses, all though you might get some brownie points for effort, you might look academically unprepared to handle medical school. If you really can't stand retaking a class, the alternative is to take something to functionally replace it (if you've blown all your humanities classes, for instance, take a few and show you can do it) or take a higher level of the same topic. Unfortunately, this will not improve your GPA as quickly as "replacing" your grades, and you run the risk of doing just as badly or worse in an upper level course...but that's probably better than doing just as badly when you retake a course.

If you don't want to post your grades on the forum, I can comment via PM.
 
I sent you a PM with my grades.
Thank you!! 🙂
 
is it worth retaking courses you got a D in if you end up just getting a C?
or a C to get a B?
at this point, if you're not getting A's or B+s you're really wasting your time.

if you can't manage A's in pre-med courses, you may need to reconsider your goals in life.
 
at this point, if you're not getting A's or B+s you're really wasting your time.

if you can't manage A's in pre-med courses, you may need to reconsider your goals in life.

Yeah, you shouldn't be questioning IF you replace with a C.... Don't get a C... They don't randomly assign grades...
 
if you can't manage A's in pre-med courses, you may need to reconsider your goals in life.

That's a ridiculous comment...unless you're really meaning "can't" and not "don't"
Some people are impacted by health or family issues. Also the rigor of grading and the rigor of courses varies from school to school--I didn't get a lot of A's in my pre-med courses, but I'm sure I could have aced them at some schools. A significant chunk of people don't get A's in all of their pre-med classes, but there probably is some school where they can. That said...inability to do very well in some of them, and above a C in all of them (and above a B in any retakes) is a glaring issue.

I am highly concerned by the seemed complacency of somebody who feels a re-take C is an outcome to which they are destined...it kind of sounds like they're "ok" with it. 😕 ...do you want a Dr. who hated cardiology in school and so was "ok" with bombing that and just passed it off as "I'm not good at that."
 
OP, there are some programs that will allow you to retake prereqs and take upper level courses at night. The Health Careers Program at Harvard Extension School, where I spent the last year, is one of these programs. Courses are $800 each - extremely affordable (although they may go up slightly). One route to consider might be to look for a science or lab related day job and attend one of these programs at night. The benefits of this route are threefold: You can take your classes at a slower pace (2 a semester generally), you can make a little bit of money, and you can take some time to seriously consider your career choice.
 
DO schools will overlook failed classes if you retake them, so that is probably your best bet. Apply to some MD schools as well if you want, but acceptance seems unlikely. Make sure you do well on the MCAT and then apply C-MD/DO.

Graduate coursework won't help your undergraduate GPA, so it won't help your admission chances much.
 
OP: I've been through this (graduated with a 2.8). This response is long, but read it through.

First, to clarify terms:

A formal post-bac: This is a fromal program, offered by a handful of universities, designed to let people who graduated without having fulfilled the premedical requirements complete those requirements in the shortest possible amount of time. The best of these programs also have linkages to top medical schools (and are geared towards people who graduated with near perfect GPAs). This is not what you want.

An informal post-bac program: This is a fancy way of saying that you're staying in undergrad longer to get your GPA to a more respectable level. This is an option for you. Take more classes, or just retake the ones you screwed up the first time around.

Special Masters Programs: These are 1 year programs, offered at about half a dozen medical schools, which allow students to take classes with, and be graded against, medical students at that school. They have nothing to do wth a normal masters degree, and serve no purpose other than to help you get into medical school. These programs almost all run for 1 year, cost a lot of money, and are billed as an 'audition' for medical school. Most of these programs have very high (>75%) success rates at getting their students into medical school, which translates to just about 100% of the students that did well in the program. Most SMPs also have some sort of guarentee to admit, or at least interview, the very top students in the program. A few SMPs (generally refered to as 'high linkage' SMPs) admit more than 75% of their students into the followng year's medical school class. For obvious reasons, these are some of the most competitive programs to get admitted to.

Generally SMPs are geared towards people who have 'unbalanced' applications, meaning a high MCAT and low GPA or, more rarely, a low MCAT with multiple retakes and a high GPA. Obviously the lower your GPA the higher your MCAT needs to be to make up for it and vice versa. Most Special Masters programs won't admit you with less than a 3.0 unless you have a truely stellar MCAT, and won't admit you with less than a 2.75 under any cirumstances. So if you're interested in doing this chances are you need to improve your cumulative GPA first. An SMP program doesn't actually increase your undergraduate GPA, but your grades in the program will be weighted, by ADCOMs, as or more highly than your entire ugrad GPA combined.

BTW people who have screwed up in SMPs have reported back that after that their applications were basically unsalvagable, so if you go the SMP route view this as the very last thing you're going to do to improve your application, one way or the other.

General Advice:

1) Don't listen to your premedical advisor. Advisors are varying degrees of unhelpful if you're a good candidate for medical school, but they're all pretty much all equally and completely useless if your application sucks. They'll either advise you to give up or tell you to do something that won't help at all in terms of improving your app (like a traditional masters program). Politely ignore them.

2) Don't do a tradiational masters or an MPH. The experience of the (many, many) people on SDN who have been in your situation is that medical school ADCOMs barely even consider grades from a Masters degree. It might help for an aplicant that was otherwise borderline, but if your GPA is awful it won't help at all. For practical purposes the only grades ADCOMs care about are from undergrad and from other medical schools (via SMPs).

3) Don't do ANYTHING until you've figured out why you got a 2.6 in the first place and have corrected the problem. Otherwise anything you do will only be digging the hole deeper.

Plans of attack:

the way I see it, you have 4 options

1) Get your GPA up to a 3.0 (or maybe a 2.8 if you can really kill the MCAT) over the next year or three calculating your GPA without grade replacement. Then do an SMP. Go to a US MD or DO school.

2) Redo all the classes you did really badly in. Get your GPA up to a 3.4 (or maybe a 3.2 if you can really kill the MCAT) calculated using only your most recent grade in a given course. Apply to, and go to, a DO school.

3) Finish your prereqs if you haven't yet, get a decent MCAT, apply to the 'big 4' Caribbean schools, and start maybe as early as this coming spring. The problem here is that the Caribben has both high fail out rates (fail a single class and you're done) and a very low match rate for residency (not getting a residency means your degree is pretty much worthless). If you're not at the top of your game you're going to burried under a mound of debt you'll never escape from and you'll never get another shot to be a doctor. The upside is, if you finish and get residency, your degree will be just as good as anyone else's and you'll be a doctor only 4 years from now. This is probably the best option if you come from money, otherwise I'd recommend against it.

4) Consider another career. Seriously, this job is good but it ain't great. Have you looked at nursing? PA school? Business? Engineering? The military? Just getting in to medical school is going to take several years for you unless you go Caribbean, and then it's at least 7 years until you can practice for a decent salary. Also if you try this every year of application improvement is going to cost quite a bit of $$, and you might not get in at all. Do you really care that much about a white coat?

Anyway, G'luck, whatever you choose.

Completely agree with this! As an SMP grad myself, they are not magic programs that simply make inherently bad apps disappear. That ugrad GPA needs to be somewhat respectable.. The lowest ugrad GPA limit I've seen from a respectable SMP is 2.75 (there are many SMPs, so I think what Perrot was referring to is there are about half a dozen respectable ones). From the SMP's standpoint, they want people who need a little boost to get their app competitive, but otherwise are ready to go. That way, their success rates go up, which is what dictates their reputations. A 2.6 just needs too much work.

I have to say the one thing that has shocked me since joining SDN is the utter cluelessness of official premed advisors at various colleges across the country. I am SO glad my school did not have one at the time of my attendance! These people are paid to advise premeds and they don't seem to have any passion (or even the proper knowledge).
 
Last edited:
Top