high mcats and gpas=good doctor?

[silas2642]

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You know, it's funny that we're all obsessed over our mcats and gpas, whether we'll make the cut for medical schools, what kind of stats the next guy has, etc. But in the end, I want to know if you guys really think our grades and mcat scores have any reflection whatsoever of what kind of physicians we are going to become?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think quantitative data tells very little about the quality of a potential doctor-- so what if so and so can take a standardized test? Why should his patients be impressed? That doesn't tell me that in the office or hospital, where it counts, he's going to be able to make the diagnosis and treat me with respect and humanity. These things tell nothing about a person's passion for medicine and his patients.

 

[zoom zoom]

You know, it's funny that we're all obsessed over our mcats and gpas, whether we'll make the cut for medical schools, what kind of stats the next guy has, etc. But in the end, I want to know if you guys really think our grades and mcat scores have any reflection whatsoever of what kind of physicians we are going to become?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think quantitative data tells very little about the quality of a potential doctor-- so what if so and so can take a standardized test? Why should his patients be impressed? That doesn't tell me that in the office or hospital, where it counts, he's going to be able to make the diagnosis and treat me with respect and humanity. These things tell nothing about a person's passion for medicine and his patients.

IMHO, it may be a good indication of success in the first 2 years of med school but it really has no correlation with rotation years and with being an effective physician. It is not uncommon that type A perfect GPA and MCAT individuals break under the pressure and skills this profession requires

 

[dilated]

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think quantitative data tells very little about the quality of a potential doctor-- so what if so and so can take a standardized test? Why should his patients be impressed? That doesn't tell me that in the office or hospital, where it counts, he's going to be able to make the diagnosis and treat me with respect and humanity. These things tell nothing about a person's passion for medicine and his patients.

I think the dirty secret is that being a doctor is not rocket science. I'm not terribly worried that I'm somehow going to be found inadequate once I jump through adcom hoops. MCATs/GPAs are mostly about setting a certain minimum intellectual capability, and then they're just about needing a non-purely-arbitrary way to separate applicants.

 

[will8570]

I don't know about you guys, but honestly, do you really think that being very intelligent is NOT that important in the medical field? ARE YOU KIDDING? Being able to learn and apply that knowledge is central to practicing medicine. The "smarter" we are, the better we are at this.

Medicine is often a life and death game of decision making. We are playing with other peoples' lives. Being a good doctor isn't about holding someone's hand and stroking their head, its about making them better, giving them results, getting them out of the hospital and allowing them to continue with their lives. Patients don't need cheerleaders; they need doctors that know their ****!

I'm not picking on the OP, but I see these posts all the time where people talk about how its all about the relationship between patient and doctor, whereas I highly disagree with that. Its about making people better.

I know my approach isn't the most sensitive one, but when I become a doctor, I hope to see the most patients the most efficiently and give the most results, rather than being chit-chatty every morning. i know that we must care for the person and the patient, but I think most patients would rather us focus on their physical ailments then their stress, fear, concerns with the metaphysical, etc. Thats what nurses, family, friends, and spiritual advisors are for. There simply aren't enough hours in the day for doctors to be responsible for all of the above, especially when speaking of specialists.

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for these statements, but before flamewars ensue, just know that I plan to specialize in a field with little patient contact such as radiology or anesthesia, that suits my "all-business" personality.

As far as GPA and MCAT go, thats just the unfortunate fact of us having to summarize who were are into numbers and letters to forward to medical admissions commitees who decide our fate. It sucks, but they have to select us somehow, and at least GPA and MCAT are somewhat fair indicators of how we handle stress, responsibility, and manage the knowledge that is central to the profession we all want to call our own. Of course we are more than the sum of our stats, but to admissions offices, we are just stacks of papers to be sized up and scrutinized.

 

[radioh3ad]

Basco WT Jr, Gilbert GE, Chessman AW, Blue AV. The ability of a medical school admission process to predict clinical performance and patients' satisfaction. Acad Med. 2000 Jul;75(7):743-7.

conclusion: no.

needs more data. but cmon, pretty predictable.

 

[tacrum43]

I don't know about you guys, but honestly, do you really think that being very intelligent is NOT that important in the medical field? ARE YOU KIDDING? Being able to learn and apply that knowledge is central to practicing medicine. The "smarter" we are, the better we are at this.

Medicine is often a life and death game of decision making. We are playing with other peoples' lives. Being a good doctor isn't about holding someone's hand and stroking their head, its about making them better, giving them results, getting them out of the hospital and allowing them to continue with their lives. Patients don't need cheerleaders; they need doctors that know their ****!

I'm not picking on the OP, but I see these posts all the time where people talk about how its all about the relationship between patient and doctor, whereas I highly disagree with that. Its about making people better.

If you can't communicate with your patients effectively to gain information (not all of which can be gained from testing and observation), then you can't treat them in the best way possible because you don't have all the facts. If they don't trust/like you, they may not feel comfortable sharing all the pertinent information. You may say this is their responsibility, and not your's, but I think the "art" side of medicine is important.

I know my approach isn't the most sensitive one, but when I become a doctor, I hope to see the most patients the most efficiently and give the most results, rather than being chit-chatty every morning. i know that we must care for the person and the patient, but I think most patients would rather us focus on their physical ailments then their stress, fear, concerns with the metaphysical, etc. Thats what nurses, family, friends, and spiritual advisors are for. There simply aren't enough hours in the day for doctors to be responsible for all of the above, especially when speaking of specialists.

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for these statements, but before flamewars ensue, just know that I plan to specialize in a field with little patient contact such as radiology or anesthesia, that suits my "all-business" personality.

Wait, is this Dr. Benton? Aren't you already a surgeon? Oh wait, that's TV. 😉

 

[will8570]

If you can't communicate with your patients effectively to gain information (not all of which can be gained from testing and observation), then you can't treat them in the best way possible because you don't have all the facts. If they don't trust/like you, they may not feel comfortable sharing all the pertinent information. You may say this is their responsibility, and not your's, but I think the "art" side of medicine is important.



Wait, is this Dr. Benton? Aren't you already a surgeon? Oh wait, that's TV. 😉

I agree with the importance of effective communication between patient and doctor, but I stick to my guns that most patients appreciate doctors who focus their attention on the treatment of the patient and not getting to know her/him better. I'm not saying that its bad to be kind! Just that docs need to be there to be professional health advocates and make decisions for people who know nothing about whats wrong with them, not be there as a best friend forever. I honestly think that nurses are there less as healthcare providers and more as patient representatives to take care of the other aspects of care such as making patients as comfortable as possible with hot blankets and trying to calm them down by talking to them etc. I want to be the best doctor I can be, and for me I think that means being available for as many people in need of my services as possible.

As far as the surgery reference {Dr. Benton} I agree that surgeons seem to focus only on the patient and not the person, but thats not the real case many times. Its just the apperance they give off. Being in the OR with these people and listening to them talk about their patients is fascinating. They clearly care deeply for their patients and often do things such as make phone calls to insurance companies and other doctors that their patients never even find out about. Its just more behind the scenes.

 

[will8570]

As an additional note, as much as this might sound contradictory to my initial post, I love medicine and want to devote my life to it. I'm a workaholic and will pour myself into whatever specialty I choose [assuming I eventually get into med school haha] and will give all I have. For me, being a doctor is more important than having a family of my own. So you can see that I really care a lot about taking care of people.

 

[Blake]

As an additional note, as much as this might sound contradictory to my initial post, I love medicine and want to devote my life to it. I'm a workaholic and will pour myself into whatever specialty I choose [assuming I eventually get into med school haha] and will give all I have. For me, being a doctor is more important than having a family of my own. So you can see that I really care a lot about taking care of people.

Please save this for the adcoms !

 

[tacrum43]

As an additional note, as much as this might sound contradictory to my initial post, I love medicine and want to devote my life to it. I'm a workaholic and will pour myself into whatever specialty I choose [assuming I eventually get into med school haha] and will give all I have. For me, being a doctor is more important than having a family of my own. So you can see that I really care a lot about taking care of people.

But where is the love? I mean, if you don't have any meaningful interaction with patients, and you have no family, how will you not go insane from lack of social contact?

By the way, I am not saying that a doctor needs or even should be best friends with their patients, I just know that I appreciate it when a doctor is friendly when I come in for an appointment. Obviously this wouldn't apply in a life threatening emergency, but just in general. You mentioned anesthesiology before, which I am also interested in, and I just wanted to say that I think it would be very important for an anesthesiologist to be friendly and reassuring; I know a lot of people have anxiety about "going under".

 

[will8570]

But where is the love? I mean, if you don't have any meaningful interaction with patients, and you have no family, how will you not go insane from lack of social contact?

By the way, I am not saying that a doctor needs or even should be best friends with their patients, I just know that I appreciate it when a doctor is friendly when I come in for an appointment. Obviously this wouldn't apply in a life threatening emergency, but just in general. You mentioned anesthesiology before, which I am also interested in, and I just wanted to say that I think it would be very important for an anesthesiologist to be friendly and reassuring; I know a lot of people have anxiety about "going under".

I guess I'm not writing my feelings on this issue very well. I'm a very friendly and outgoing person, but I really strongly feel that professionalism is important. I'm a friendly guy and will always be friendly with everyone. People tend to like me. I just want my medical practice to focus on just that, practicing medicine. I've been around patients all summer, and I've been friendly and yet focused on doing my job as efficiently as possible so that I could do the most in 8 hours that I could. Thats just what I try to do. And yes, with anesthesia, being kind and outgoing is essential. You are going to balance someone's life that you've just met and need to gain their trust immediately.

I'm not that antisocial neurosurgeon you see walking down the hall with his eyes to the floor, not at all. I hope I didn't mislead everyone. I was just trying to respond to what I thought was a misplaced emphasis on the touchy feely aspect of healthcare on these forums, and that MCATs and GPA don't indicate a person's ability to be a great doctor. Being a great doctor is all-encompassing and requires a person's full committment. If you don't want to devote your whole life to it, don't do it. Thats my philosophy in a nutshell.

 

[will8570]

But where is the love? I mean, if you don't have any meaningful interaction with patients, and you have no family, how will you not go insane from lack of social contact?

By the way, I am not saying that a doctor needs or even should be best friends with their patients, I just know that I appreciate it when a doctor is friendly when I come in for an appointment. Obviously this wouldn't apply in a life threatening emergency, but just in general. You mentioned anesthesiology before, which I am also interested in, and I just wanted to say that I think it would be very important for an anesthesiologist to be friendly and reassuring; I know a lot of people have anxiety about "going under".

Sorry I neglected to respond to part of your post. As far as the no family thing, thats kind of a personal matter for me, but it basically just stems from my inability to commit to a relationship and trust females I'm in a relationship with. Its purely my fault and comes from the fact that I grew up in an affluent circle that was chock full of dysfunctional relationships and married people that hated each other and their crazy kids. Thus I've been scared out of my mind of comittment and have never had a moderately successful relationship. I still hope for one, and think that if I find one it will be in med school because I'm only going to be able to relate to a woman who can also devote her entire life to medicine. Sorry to talk your ear off...

-Sleepless in Seattle

 

[tacrum43]

I guess I'm not writing my feelings on this issue very well. I'm a very friendly and outgoing person, but I really strongly feel that professionalism is important. I'm a friendly guy and will always be friendly with everyone. People tend to like me. I just want my medical practice to focus on just that, practicing medicine. I've been around patients all summer, and I've been friendly and yet focused on doing my job as efficiently as possible so that I could do the most in 8 hours that I could. Thats just what I try to do. And yes, with anesthesia, being kind and outgoing is essential. You are going to balance someone's life that you've just met and need to gain their trust immediately.

I'm not that antisocial neurosurgeon you see walking down the hall with his eyes to the floor, not at all. I hope I didn't mislead everyone. I was just trying to respond to what I thought was a misplaced emphasis on the touchy feely aspect of healthcare on these forums, and that MCATs and GPA don't indicate a person's ability to be a great doctor. Being a great doctor is all-encompassing and requires a person's full committment. If you don't want to devote your whole life to it, don't do it. Thats my philosophy in a nutshell.

Okay, I understand what you're saying about the actual medical treatment vs. "touchy feely" stuff.

However, could be that devoting your entire life to medicine is in fact counterproductive because your quality of life goes down so much that you can't do you best work?

 

[will8570]

Okay, I understand what you're saying about the actual medical treatment vs. "touchy feely" stuff.

However, could be that devoting your entire life to medicine is in fact counterproductive because your quality of life goes down so much that you can't do you best work?

Well I guess quality of life means different things to different people. To me, its not just about having a family and time to spend with them. I am fortunate enough to have been exposed to many very nice things growing up, and I have an appreciation for them. Quality of life for me is all about being able to spend my free moments doing whatever I want, which is typically traveling or sailing. Hopefully, if all goes well I'll still be able to pursue my interests during time off as a doctor. But I'll put my interests second to helping others.

 

[tacrum43]

Sorry I neglected to respond to part of your post. As far as the no family thing, thats kind of a personal matter for me, but it basically just stems from my inability to commit to a relationship and trust females I'm in a relationship with. Its purely my fault and comes from the fact that I grew up in an affluent circle that was chock full of dysfunctional relationships and married people that hated each other and their crazy kids. Thus I've been scared out of my mind of comittment and have never had a moderately successful relationship. I still hope for one, and think that if I find one it will be in med school because I'm only going to be able to relate to a woman who can also devote her entire life to medicine. Sorry to talk your ear off...

-Sleepless in Seattle

I'll PM you Meg Ryan's phone number. 😉

P.S. My parents are freakish (apparently) happy in their 38+ year marriage, so that might explain a few things. Yeah, they're old too. 🙂

 

[tacrum43]

Well I guess quality of life means different things to different people. To me, its not just about having a family and time to spend with them. I am fortunate enough to have been exposed to many very nice things growing up, and I have an appreciation for them. Quality of life for me is all about being able to spend my free moments doing whatever I want, which is typically traveling or sailing. Hopefully, if all goes well I'll still be able to pursue my interests during time off as a doctor. But I'll put my interests second to helping others.

Hey I've been exposed to some very nice things growing up too. Okay, not so much sailing, but I've traveled quite a bit, gone to plays and operas and I know what kind of pate I prefer (duck truffle) but I'm just saying it is important (at least for me) to have people I can rely on.

 

[will8570]

I'll PM you Meg Ryan's phone number. 😉

P.S. My parents are freakish (apparently) happy in their 38+ year marriage, so that might explain a few things. Yeah, they're old too. 🙂

I'd go talk over my issues with a psychiatrist but I fear that they would get discheveled and retire early 😉

 

[MoosePilot]

I think intelligence is one component to being the ideal doctor. A strong work ethic is another. GPA and MCAT are objective ways to attempt to measure this.

I think it's easy to confuse the measures with the virtues you're trying to measure. They're not the same thing, but the adcoms have no way of completely getting into your head and finding out whether you really are intelligent and hard working, so these are the best way to try to know that.

I do think they correlate with these virtues which are part of being a good doctor. I actually think the application process does a pretty good job.

 

[will8570]

I think intelligence is one component to being the ideal doctor. A strong work ethic is another. GPA and MCAT are objective ways to attempt to measure this.

I think it's easy to confuse the measures with the virtues you're trying to measure. They're not the same thing, but the adcoms have no way of completely getting into your head and finding out whether you really are intelligent and hard working, so these are the best way to try to know that.

I do think they correlate with these virtues which are part of being a good doctor. I actually think the application process does a pretty good job.

Nicely done. You're less verbose than I, which is a great skill. I bet you aced the writing segment of the MCAT.

 

[tacrum43]

I'd go talk over my issues with a psychiatrist but I fear that they would get discheveled and retire early 😉

Eh, what pre-med doesn't have issues?

 

[MoosePilot]

Nicely done. You're less verbose than I, which is a great skill. I bet you aced the writing segment of the MCAT.

Hey, thanks. I didn't ace it, but I did ok.

 

[will8570]

Eh, what pre-med doesn't have issues?

True dat. BTW, I thought I'd mention that I was lucky enough to meet Meg Ryan in a restaurant near her ranch in Montana about 9 years ago. I was only 11 and went up and said hi, and she stood up in the middle of her meal and shook my hand and proceeded to have a 5 minute conversation with me.

Now that's kindness 😀 And she was beautiful. My parents were amused because she was married to Dennis Quaid at the time, and he was at the table, but I didn't know who he was and thus didn't speak to him besides saying HI. Anyways, its a tangent but I love telling that story.

 

[tacrum43]

True dat. BTW, I thought I'd mention that I was lucky enough to meet Meg Ryan in a restaurant near her ranch in Montana about 9 years ago. I was only 11 and went up and said hi, and she stood up in the middle of her meal and shook my hand and proceeded to have a 5 minute conversation with me.

Now that's kindness 😀 And she was beautiful. My parents were amused because she was married to Dennis Quaid at the time, and he was at the table, but I didn't know who he was and thus didn't speak to him besides saying HI. Anyways, its a tangent but I love telling that story.

🙂, 'tis a good story.

 

[Zuras]

I haven't read through this thread, but let me ask a question:

You are about to go into surgery for an extremely risky, intricate operation. You have less than a 50% chance to live through it. You have the choice of three doctors, all of which you only know by their GPA/MCAT scores.

Doctor1: 43 MCAT 3.95 GPA
Doctor2: 30 MCAT 3.65 GPA
Doctor3: 26 MCAT 3.2 GPA

 

[tacrum43]

I haven't read through this thread, but let me ask a question:

You are about to go into surgery for an extremely risky, intricate operation. You have less than a 50% chance to live through it. You have the choice of three doctors, all of which you only know by their GPA/MCAT scores.

Doctor1: 43 MCAT 3.95 GPA
Doctor2: 30 MCAT 3.65 GPA
Doctor3: 26 MCAT 3.2 GPA

I think Doc # 2. Doc 1 might have an aneurysm at any moment from being that anal for that long, and Doc 3 is obviously a D.O. and therefore has no business being a surgeon. 😉

Seriously though, when would this EVER be the case?

 

[Zuras]

Seriously though, when would this EVER be the case?

When you sit on the admission committee. 🙂

 

[tacrum43]

When you sit on the admission committee. 🙂

Yeah, but you were talking about for a risky surgery.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

I thought I'd mention that I was lucky enough to meet Meg Ryan in a restaurant near her ranch in Montana about 9 years ago. I was only 11 and went up and said hi, and she stood up in the middle of her meal and shook my hand and proceeded to have a 5 minute conversation with me.

But did you get to see her fake it?!

 

[will8570]

But did you get to see her fake it?!

lolololol....Although the salad I was eating there was by far the best I've ever had and I've always remembered how good it was... Smoked salmon caesar salad. MMMMMM "I'll have what she's having"

 

[tacrum43]

But did you get to see her fake it?!

LOL! Phil, that's not very moderatorly of you, now is it? 😉

 

[medhacker]

I will take the one with the highest surgery graduate exam scores

 

[medhacker]

Doc 3 is obviously a D.O. and therefore has no business being a surgeon. 😉

oh the immaturity.....
😎

 

[tacrum43]

oh the immaturity.....
😎

I was only joking (note the wink)

 

[medhacker]

I was only joking (note the wink)

LOL I was being playful too

 

[tacrum43]

LOL I was being playful too

Well all right then. 🙂

 

[Shredder]

You know, it's funny that we're all obsessed over our mcats and gpas, whether we'll make the cut for medical schools, what kind of stats the next guy has, etc. But in the end, I want to know if you guys really think our grades and mcat scores have any reflection whatsoever of what kind of physicians we are going to become?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think quantitative data tells very little about the quality of a potential doctor-- so what if so and so can take a standardized test? Why should his patients be impressed? That doesn't tell me that in the office or hospital, where it counts, he's going to be able to make the diagnosis and treat me with respect and humanity. These things tell nothing about a person's passion for medicine and his patients.

down with subjective criteria. administer one test after another if needed, but minimize the power of power hungry adcoms.

why not establish an all encompassing, standardized premed test? including communication, proficiency, all nighter ability, friendliness, and whatever else. i dont know, but theres way too much emphasis on subjective factors as it now stands. tests are designed to predict, thats what their purpose is, otherwise they are useless. they are made to draw correlations.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

I think the medical admissions process is the most fair experience I've had so far. Here's why.

When job hunting, being hired depends on entirely subjective criteria - i.e. the interview. Someone doesn't like you that day? No hire. Slightly nervous or said the wrong thing? No hire.

At least in the admissions process, you get the opportunity to prove yourself with objective criteria first, so that in the event you don't do well on the subjective side, you can still be accepted.

However, since medical schools are in the business of choosing the wrong people for their schools (they are, in a way, investing in their future with each new crop of students), they have to have interviews to find the best people. Objective exam results just serve as a way to limit the number of interviews that they have to do; also a tactic used by many companies to weed out applicants.

 

[Law2Doc]

I haven't read through this thread, but let me ask a question:

You are about to go into surgery for an extremely risky, intricate operation. You have less than a 50% chance to live through it. You have the choice of three doctors, all of which you only know by their GPA/MCAT scores.

Doctor1: 43 MCAT 3.95 GPA
Doctor2: 30 MCAT 3.65 GPA
Doctor3: 26 MCAT 3.2 GPA

I wouldn't want any of the three -- they are still resting on their undergrad credentials -- which suggests lack of subsequent achievements. In medicine, all these undergrad stats go by the wayside -- you are only as good as the last place you've been. Meaning, once you are in med school, no one cares how you did in undergrad or on the MCAT. Once you are a resident, no one cares where you went to med school. And so on. There are lots of people who peak early (in undergrad) and their performance falls off once they get to med school or the boards.
So I wouldn't focus too much on these undergrad credentials as some sort of holy grail of intelligence or aptitude (FYI the MCAT purports to do neither) -- you will see a significant amount of flip flop in position between Doctors 1 and 2 -- both will likely get into allopathic med schools, and from there, all bets are off as to who is "smarter" or who will match with the better residency. And even med school admissions will look at many other things besides these numerical scores -- I can think of many scenarios where Doctor 1 would have had a much harder time getting into med school than an EC laden, highly recommended, Doctor 2 with good interview skills.

 

[silas2642]

I don't know about you guys, but honestly, do you really think that being very intelligent is NOT that important in the medical field? ARE YOU KIDDING? Being able to learn and apply that knowledge is central to practicing medicine. The "smarter" we are, the better we are at this.

Medicine is often a life and death game of decision making. We are playing with other peoples' lives. Being a good doctor isn't about holding someone's hand and stroking their head, its about making them better, giving them results, getting them out of the hospital and allowing them to continue with their lives. Patients don't need cheerleaders; they need doctors that know their ****!

I'm not picking on the OP, but I see these posts all the time where people talk about how its all about the relationship between patient and doctor, whereas I highly disagree with that. Its about making people better.

I know my approach isn't the most sensitive one, but when I become a doctor, I hope to see the most patients the most efficiently and give the most results, rather than being chit-chatty every morning. i know that we must care for the person and the patient, but I think most patients would rather us focus on their physical ailments then their stress, fear, concerns with the metaphysical, etc. Thats what nurses, family, friends, and spiritual advisors are for. There simply aren't enough hours in the day for doctors to be responsible for all of the above, especially when speaking of specialists.

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for these statements, but before flamewars ensue, just know that I plan to specialize in a field with little patient contact such as radiology or anesthesia, that suits my "all-business" personality.

As far as GPA and MCAT go, thats just the unfortunate fact of us having to summarize who were are into numbers and letters to forward to medical admissions commitees who decide our fate. It sucks, but they have to select us somehow, and at least GPA and MCAT are somewhat fair indicators of how we handle stress, responsibility, and manage the knowledge that is central to the profession we all want to call our own. Of course we are more than the sum of our stats, but to admissions offices, we are just stacks of papers to be sized up and scrutinized.

That's just it... medicine isn't just a science, there's more to it than just making a diagnosis and treating a disease because there are vulnerable people involved. Compassion, empathy, showing a patient that you really care goes a long ways, and when we fail medically to cure a disease (and we do this all the time), we can find that we succeed in our humanity. Sorry to sound sappy, but I really believe this.

 

[silas2642]

I guess I'm not writing my feelings on this issue very well. I'm a very friendly and outgoing person, but I really strongly feel that professionalism is important. I'm a friendly guy and will always be friendly with everyone. People tend to like me. I just want my medical practice to focus on just that, practicing medicine. I've been around patients all summer, and I've been friendly and yet focused on doing my job as efficiently as possible so that I could do the most in 8 hours that I could. Thats just what I try to do. And yes, with anesthesia, being kind and outgoing is essential. You are going to balance someone's life that you've just met and need to gain their trust immediately.

I'm not that antisocial neurosurgeon you see walking down the hall with his eyes to the floor, not at all. I hope I didn't mislead everyone. I was just trying to respond to what I thought was a misplaced emphasis on the touchy feely aspect of healthcare on these forums, and that MCATs and GPA don't indicate a person's ability to be a great doctor. Being a great doctor is all-encompassing and requires a person's full committment. If you don't want to devote your whole life to it, don't do it. Thats my philosophy in a nutshell.

Aha! But what is professionalism? Is it when doctors approach the patient in their prisitne, perfectly ironed white coats and stethoscopes draped around their necks, referring to their patients as "Mister and Mrs." in front of them, as "that guy with the gall bladder problem" behind their backs, and when doctors and nurses never get involved with their patients lives? I don't know about you, but as someone whose been a patient before, that's not what I want out of my doctor. Professionalism, in my opinion, is simply following the golden rule-- you treat your patients the way you would want to be treated. I you don't know how you would want to be treated, then ask your patients what they would like out of the care they are receiving. They'll tell you.

 

[Zuras]

I wouldn't want any of the three

Great choice. Now you are dead. No soapbox in the hereafter, I'm afraid.

 

[Law2Doc]

Aha! But what is professionalism? Is it when doctors approach the patient in their prisitne, perfectly ironed white coats and stethoscopes draped around their necks, referring to their patients as "Mister and Mrs." in front of them, as "that guy with the gall bladder problem" behind their backs, and when doctors and nurses never get involved with their patients lives? I don't know about you, but as someone whose been a patient before, that's not what I want out of my doctor. Professionalism, in my opinion, is simply following the golden rule-- you treat your patients the way you would want to be treated. I you don't know how you would want to be treated, then ask your patients what they would like out of the care they are receiving. They'll tell you.

There is a definite split of opinion between whether the better doctor is one that has a good bedside manner but is obtuse, versus the arrogant SOB MFer who is a brilliant diagnostician and can make you well but treats his patients as defective organs. I suspect it's far easier to teach the latter doctor how to pretend to care than it is to teach the former to be a better clinician -- which is probably why med schools try to use objective numerical criteria so heavilly.

 

[Law2Doc]

Great choice. Now you are dead. No soapbox in the hereafter, I'm afraid.

You missed my point -- You are the one who created a hypothetical where you gave irrelevent credentials. Personally, if they are all doctors at the same hospital, and you know nothing other then the credentials you listed on which to base your decision, then I posit that it doesn't matter at all who does the operation. Hence I wouldn't bother making a distinction -- wouldn't make a choice. That was my point -- where they are now is the only credential of import at this level. In fact, I would suggest that the one with the worst undergrad credentials is the smartest choice -- as you know he has worked the hardest since to get to the same level as the others.

 

[Zuras]

You missed my point -- You are the one who created a hypothetical where you gave irrelevent credentials.

Your answer is a lie, as we all know. No one would say "er, I don't care."

 

[Law2Doc]

Your answer is a lie, as we all know. No one would say "er, I don't care."

If you are ever at a hospital and they start listing MCAT scores of physicians, I suggest getting to another hospital. 🙄

 

[Zuras]

If you are ever at a hospital and they start listing MCAT scores of physicians, I suggest getting to another hospital. 🙄

You obviously don't understand the point of an allegory.

OMG. A hare would never race a turtle!

 

[Law2Doc]

You obviously don't understand the point of an allegory.

OMG. A hare would never race a turtle!

No apparently I don't. Nor do I get how listing three hypothetical doctors undergrad stats is an "allegory" or fable.
I don't think you are getting me either.
Which one of the docs you described is the hare and which is the turtle? In my prior post I suggested that the doctor with the lowest undergrad stats (the slowest starter - the turtle?) might be the best in the end.
But I am suggesting that in your story of the turtle and the hare it is meaningless to focus on the characters characteristics when they were an egg and embryo - which is what the undergrad stats really are here.

 

[Zuras]

"No apparently I don't. Nor do I get how listing three hypothetical doctors undergrad stats is an "allegory" or fable. "

Simply put, a high MCAT/GPA predicts a better performance in med school/on the boards, which then further predicts a better performance as a doctor. I'm not going to spend an hour explaining allegories to someone that can't seem to understand what 4-5 year olds have no problem grasping.

 

[rpkall]

Actually, MCAT correlates mainly with board scores, not overall performance in med school and especially not on clinical rotations. It does take a necessary problem-solving intellect to be a good physician, but much of medicine can be "taught"--and almost all medicine is really learned in rotations/residency.

There is much more that goes into being a decent physician than MCATs and undergrad GPA and even arguably the year 2 boards--and I'm not just talking about that "hello, how are you, you're wonderful and I'm your healer and I'm going to touch you and make you feel good about yourself" stuff, either.

Being a good physician means knowing your limitations just as much as it means knowing every last possibility on the differential. It means knowing yourself well enough as a human being to know when you're in over your head, when you need help, and when you can handle a situation on your own. It means recruiting other team members to work efficiently on each case, cultivating a positive work environment for members of your service, and being professional, understanding, thoughtful, inquisitive, honest, truthful, diligent, and willing to admit mistakes and reform your behavior. The personal development necessary to make a well-qualified physician can't be predicted by tests; that's like saying the kid who has a 100 IQ won't be as well-adjusted an adult as the kid who has a 165. Sometimes the most well adjusted residents and junior attendings happen to be the ones who scored 99 percentile on everything; sometimes they're not. Life isn't cut and dry or black and white.

The guy I want doing my surgery is the guy who's done the most of them on patients like me. I don't care if he's a DO, MD, from Harvard or TUCOM; I don't care what he got on his MCATs or what his undergrad GPA is. I don't care if he's a PA, as long as he does 10 procedures a day; I'd choose him if my other choices are two MDs who've only done two. In surgery, that's really what counts. Mortality rates have little to do with WHO is actually doing the surgery; they have to do with how much experience an operator (and his/her team) has doing that particular surgery.

 

[visualwealth]

Zuras once again you chose to embarrass yourself 🙄 .That question is like asking who would you rather have as your doctor the 1600SAT, 1300, or 1000? IMO if all three of these guys have managed to get into surgery then, there is no reason for me to not pick out of a hat. After shadowing a surgeon I have arrived at the conviction that surgery does not take great brains(nothing in medicine does or, they would not consider other factors when selecting). The guy that is the most organized might be a better choice or, the guy who cuts and stitches better. What do GPA and MCAT predict that relates to surgery? What do physics, chem, and undergrad bio really have to do with surgery?? Surgery is a field of experience and thus, the criteria that one should base their pick on is each doctors past success rate. And you would be surprised to find out that this has nothing to do with their high school or undergrad performance.