Hilarious.....or outrageous? (work wanted)

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Thrombus

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Anyone see the work wanted posting in CAP today for an experienced pathologist to sign out any case for 10$?

How low will this profession go before the heads in the sand wake up?
 
I just looked at the ad and its the same person who advertised herself on pathologyoutlines.com. Interesting that she appears to be president and owner of her own practice and is now asking to signout cases for 10 bucks a pop. This is the same person who listed her references for the world to see.

How do you go from owning a company, selling it and now asking to signout cases at 10 bucks a pop? Maybe she's hit retirement age and is just happy to signout cases for 10 bucks remotely.
 
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This ad is in the wrong the place, it should be in a GI journal. Then they would be crazy busy....they could start another business and hire pathologists for $5 a case.
 
This is disgraceful and insulting.

$10/signout. Just wow!

What else can you expect? Our organizations are busy wasting time in pseudoactivities like "transformation" while completely ignoring a "clear and present crisis situation"

I wonder how blind and stupid one has to be to still say something positive about how pathologists stand in todays medicine market place.

Yet, on this very form I predict some loser will come out and criticize "anecdotal data" "old data" etc. etc and say how they are satisfied with their job position. Keep up the same asinine thinking and soon you will be the one signing out for even less than $10/case.
 
Healthcare reform over the next few years will likely change all of this anyway. Even the very concept of TC and PC billing may not exist in 3 years.
 
Healthcare reform over the next few years will likely change all of this anyway. Even the very concept of TC and PC billing may not exist in 3 years.

I think TC/PC will still exist for outpatient cases but for in patient there will be no more PC billing at least for medicare. The govt will pay a flat fee for a a case (i.e. colectomy for cancer) and then walk away and let the hospital admins and various physicians involved figure out how to divide it up. I don't think private insurance cases will be much different than they are now.

I still think physicians would have been better off with a complete takeover by medicare and keeping the current reimbursement structure in place with say a 1% year increase. Private insurance companies make billions in profits. Medicare's overhead is like 3%. Private insurance is like 30% when you add in their profits. All of that money could be used to care the currently unisured and eventually go to docs.

I would hire that person to sign out 100 gram lumpectomy specimens with multiply submitted margins and 3 sentinel lymph nodes.
 
I love how some of you guys treat this solitary anecdote as a symptom of something larger while someone with a good experience is treated like an ignorant brain dead hick. Could it just be that this individual is kind of a loser pathologist who is attempting to make a name for themselves and get business because they haven't been successful via other methods? I think it's pathetic also but to ascribe larger significance to it (unless you are willing to ascribe larger significance to every anecdote you hear whether it agrees with your opinion or not) is silly.

I swear it's like listening to talk radio. People only listen to "facts" and anecdotes that support their own opinion and they ignore everything else or treat it as misinformation.

In truth this is a bad business model. Can you imagine a malpractice lawyer having a field day with this person's advertisement? I can. It's discount pathology which often correlates quite highly with discount diagnoses.

Discount pathology is a big problem. It is unethical yet people who do it call it "solid business practice" or use the word "competitive" in there somewhere. It's sleaze. It's kickbacks. People making money off of others' work. Personally I do not see a huge problem if big GI groups want to have a histo lab and bill for the TC themselves. But billing more for the PC than they pay to the pathologist is terribly unethical and anyone who participates in such a practice should be ashamed of themselves.
 
That's kind of a weird ad. I can't really see anyone responding seriously to it - do you really, as a clinician or hospital, want to be associated with someone just because they offer bargain-basement prices? I mean, you can justify it a little more with a large reference lab like Caris or Bostwick because they have a big name and some respect. And you can justify it (falsely, but can still be done) as an in-office lab with some blather about specimen continuity. But this is just bizarre. I can't imagine it being successful. Then again, the lack of ethics of many in the medical profession never ceases to amaze me.
 
That's kind of a weird ad. I can't really see anyone responding seriously to it - do you really, as a clinician or hospital, want to be associated with someone just because they offer bargain-basement prices? I mean, you can justify it a little more with a large reference lab like Caris or Bostwick because they have a big name and some respect. And you can justify it (falsely, but can still be done) as an in-office lab with some blather about specimen continuity. But this is just bizarre. I can't imagine it being successful. Then again, the lack of ethics of many in the medical profession never ceases to amaze me.

and yet HMO's and managed care negotiate to groups for rock bottom ptices and the big guns like Labcorp and Quest contract out thier work to pathologists and tell them we will only pay you 10-15 bucks per slide you read...(if your group will process the specimens we will pay 20-25 bucks)....
this doc is simply playing to the current subcontracting trend...
I have worked with both quest and labcorp and they undercut your contract every year till you have nothing left ...
 
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I just wish there were more like I, thrombus, ex-pcm, dermpath doc etc. (sensible aggressive types) and we could take back what is rightfully ours instead of mega labs and other specialities exploiting us like cheap labor.

I bet there would be an uproar if a pathologist hired a couple of urologists and paid them a small percentage of the revenues they generated.

I am sick of the loser and passive attitude among pathologists in general.

Right now pathologists, are like the kid that is bullied (by megalabs and otther specialities) everyday to hand over part of his/her lunch money.

We, as pathologists, should be ashamed of our attitude (I am talking about surgical pathologists only, people who actually have a clinical role not pseudopathologists aka experimental and clinical pathologists who are just leeches absorbing clinical revenue generated by surgical pathologists in academic centers).
 
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I think the answer is to get congress to stop funding pathology slots. A good 25-40% of pathology residency positions exist only to have cheap grossers. Cutting the funding at the source will be easier than getting the powers that be to cut slots.
 
I just wish there were more like I, thrombus, ex-pcm, dermpath doc etc. (sensible aggressive types) and we could take back what is rightfully ours instead of mega labs and other specialities exploiting us like cheap labor.

I bet there would be an uproar if a pathologist hired a couple of urologists and paid them a small percentage of the revenues they generated.

I am sick of the loser and passive attitude among pathologists in general.

Right now pathologists, are like the kid that is bullied (by megalabs and otther specialities) everyday to hand over part of his/her lunch money.

We, as pathologists, should be ashamed of our attitude (I am talking about surgical pathologists only, people who actually have a clinical role not pseudopathologists aka experimental and clinical pathologists who are just leeches absorbing clinical revenue generated by surgical pathologists in academic centers).

OK, I guess I'm unclear. What are you actually doing about it except complaining on anonymous internet forums? You say that the users you listed are the "sensible" ones but there is no evidence to support that. To my view, your attitude is the one that is passive, because you are simply just whining on the internet about it and hoping it will go away. You are putting your head in the sand by presuming that the solution to the problem is to cut residency spots and just presume that market forces will correct matters. How is that going to happen? And you are blaming pathologists instead of dealing with the real problems. The fact that these labs have effective marketing strategies and business people is something that you have to deal with. Why do you assume others are passive? Whether there are too many pathologists or not is a factor but it is far from the only factor. Our group takes an active role in monitoring and trying to combat abusive billing tactics.

How are you being aggressive? Linking to the tripod site doesn't count. As far as your last point - there are many examples around the country of medical groups being owned by someone other than the group. This includes urologists. Hospitals own them. Private firms own them. I presume you know that these exist? Do you find these as problematic?

IMHO confrontational posts like yours do an incredible disservice to our field and this forum. I have no doubt you have a lot you could offer this forum based on your experience and practice and the like. But instead all we get is the same vitriolic nonsense and "us vs them" attitude that only serves to crystallize the problems in pathology. Pariochialism and intrasigence just make it easier for reference labs and pod labs to marginalize you. Do you not see that?
 
How are you being aggressive? Linking to the tripod site doesn't count.

:laugh::laugh: That is hilarious.

Just for those who might be new here: http://philgmh.tripod.com/CIPJM.html
(last update: 2001)

I think yaah has a point in saying that the way we all deal with any problem for our specialty can portray an image that we may or may not want to have. But raider raises concerns that are expressed by many. I would ask, honestly, what can/should we DO about it? I am more interested in coming up with ideas and working on making a difference versus just mourning the sad state of things. Raider, if you want to change it, you might not need an army of aggressive sensible pathologists. You could come up with a strategy and then be a sensibly aggressive leader in appropriately making some changes. But it seems it must start with some concrete ideas. This is not intended to be argumentative, but to stimulate all of us to clearly define the real issues and some possible real solutions.


Are laws or ethical codes being broken? Which ones? By whom? Who can/should enforce these laws? Why are they not being enforced? If everything is legal, can the law be changed? Should it be changed? Who is willing to lobby in DC (or state level) to try to change the laws and what rationale do we have for changing them that would support the good of the public and the government (what is in it for everyone else aside from pathologists?)? Are we willing to join forces with organizations like the AMA or CAP to lobby, or are we not willing to compromise with those organizations because we do not agree with them 100%?

I guarantee that lobbying solo is much much less effective than lobbying as part of a big established organization. Even if you disagree with them on some issues, that rhetoric about standing together or dying alone is more than just rhetoric.

We need a solid argument and clear understanding of all of the facets of this issue if we really want to do something about it. That might be more boring, difficult, and time consuming than just complaining about it, but it seems to be the best way to actually change things. Or maybe we don't need to change things? I don't know, I am not trying to take sides, but rather to encourage constructive criticism.
 
Yes! These are very valid points. As I have said, raider is alluding to many important points that need attention and discussion. But the way it is being gone about on this forum is extremely weak and is the furthest thing from "sensible." It is a passive aggressive attitude which lays the burden on everyone else and serves to simultaneously marginalize and split pathologists. I don't know why this isn't more apparent.

I think there is some movement on the legislation front to limit these aggressive and borderline illegal billing practices, but part of the problem is that the same people who complain the most about these practices then turn around and complain about excessive regulation. You can't have it both ways. Either the government intervenes to protect legitimate commerce and reduce borderline immoral billing practices or it lets the market proceed. And yes, I am aware of the myriad arguments about how government regulations have created the current problem, etc etc, but you can't complain about part of it and not the whole story.

I mean seriously, if you read raider's post it sounds just like something that would be written by a union activist (a socialist!) and not a conservative.
 
What I am doing in this form, is raising awareness of what actually plagues our speciality, not what organizations like CAP want neophytes to believe (to be fair I do think there are "some" proactive people in CAP, and they are doing something to end the "unprofessional" practice that other specialities especially gastroenterology and urology have "shamelessly" adopted to steal from us e.g. their push for full disclosure of service charges in the state of Pennsylvania). What I would like is a more "concentrated" effort in this regards rather than diffusing the critical importance of these issues by diluting them with other far less pressing issues.

I understand CAP is a political organization and like all political bodies it has to pander to various factions including certain academic departments whose sole objective is getting governmental funds for their "surplus" residency positions without regards to how it effects the speciality as a whole.

Some other views:

1. Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff). Also we should have fellowships in interventional procedures for obtaining tissue sample. We should definitely not allow pHDs to get hold of molecular labs. We should rebrand ourselves "Diagnostic medicine"

2. There should be an oral component to the boards so that all suboptimal candidates can be weeded out before they contaminate the work force.

3. There should be intense teaching of the "business of diagnostic medicine" in residency programs.

4. Mandatory MOC for everyone.
 
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I think part of the issue is that to some (many?) pathologists their ideal job is to work for a gastroenterology practice or a urology practice or a pod lab or some other situation that many here would think of as a poor job that hurts the profession. Why? They want to work part time, they don't want the responsibility of running their own shop, they don't want to deal with CP, they don't want call duties, etc, etc, etc. Many residents I know in my own program would love to have a job like this working 2 or 3 days per week. I personally would detest this arrangement as a professional, but different people value different things and pathology attracts a lot of personalities who are perfectly happy working as the employee of another doctor.

The thing is, I don't think that this will change with reduced residency spots. Part-time, low responsibility position are numerous in other specialties as well but the difference is that other specialties have control over where their business comes from. Pathologists don't take the tissue out of the patient so they don't get to decide where it goes. Clinicians do. Plain and simple. If we want to control where it goes we have to physically take it out ourselves and put it in the container that goes to our lab. Unfortunately, taking the tissue out doesn't pay as well as sitting at the scope drinking coffee and signing out the case so pathologists don't want to do it.
 
IMO one particularly good point just made is that most clinicians have patients as clients, and market themselves accordingly, while pathologists have clinicians as clients. This puts pathology in a relatively unique position. We basically work for clinicians, and generally encourage ourselves to be treated accordingly. The same pros & cons patients look at to decide what clinician to go to don't apply. Sure, at some point you get what you pay for, but we're still faced with trying to accomodate the whims of clinicians rather than necessarily follow best practice procedures. Or even allow clinicians to define -our- best practice, particularly things like turnaround time, anything having to do with screening tests or frozen sections, stains, send outs, etc.

I don't know what the best solution is for that, whether it's taking tissue out ourselves (still have to be referred by a clinician), hiring our own clinicians to work for -us- instead of the other way around, becoming more aggressively involved in clinical discussions/debates & research, or what. But I do think it's a very relevant point, and part of what defines the common pathology business model.

For raider's #3 & #4, I confess some agreement. Teaching the business/administration of pathology is kinda lip service thus far, little more than the basics of billing and a few of the required lab procedures, standards, and statistics. And if we're going to require MOC, presumably to support universal maintenance of basic competence, why Why WHY not apply it universally? I understand the oldies who probably voted it in didn't want to do it, but...so what? Irks me to no end.
 
The gastros and uros and dermos are just being smart businessman. And they learned it from the reference labs. They probably shat their pants when they realized medicare pays 70 per biopsy just to make the slide. If the do 8 biopsies on a patient, they just collected an extra 560 for basically nothing. If they do 6 patients like that, it is an extra 3000 in their pocket for the day (minus the actual cost of making the slides which is dirt cheap). Just think a urologist with their sham 12 sector biopsies makes an extra grand per patient just for making the slides. Then he makes an extra 400 by finding a pathologist that will sign them out for 10 a biopsy. It is capitalism at its purest.

Pathologists did them to themselves. Did you know that the PC for an 88305 used to be much higher, and the TC was a lot lower. Pathologists that had their own lab, lobbied hard to get the TC raised. CMS said "fine" and increased the TC a lot but slashed the PC so that the overall global stayed the same.

This was the beginning of the end of outpatient pathology. The TC became so lucrative that everyone that could get their hands on tissue was desperately trying to.

Personally I would rather see the TC back around 30 and the PC back around 70. This would help the field a lot.
 
Personally I would rather see the TC back around 30 and the PC back around 70. This would help the field a lot.

Many people would love to see this. Unfortunately that ship has sailed and this will never happen.
 
The "solution" will probably be to just lower the TC and maintain the PC.

But yes - these part time or limited time pod lab jobs are not going to go away. It can be very secure for a pathologist to see only one kind of case, do it on their own time, not take call or have significant other responsibilties, and get paid reasonably well. Part of getting paid well means taking on lots of responsibility. If you are going to have a lot less responsibility it is not unreasonable to have less pay. So while these jobs are in part supplied by the "too many pathologists" argument they are more supplied by the "I want a good lifestyle" argument. People go into dermatology all the time because of the lifestyle. They take jobs that are less well compensated that have less responsibility. It happens in almost every field.
 
And if we're going to require MOC, presumably to support universal maintenance of basic competence, why Why WHY not apply it universally? I understand the oldies who probably voted it in didn't want to do it, but...so what? Irks me to no end.

Because the people who write the rules are the ones who benefit from the exceptions. This is the same reason why politics and lobbying are so lucrative.
 
I think part of the issue is that to some (many?) pathologists their ideal job is to work for a gastroenterology practice or a urology practice or a pod lab or some other situation that many here would think of as a poor job that hurts the profession. Why? They want to work part time, they don't want the responsibility of running their own shop, they don't want to deal with CP, they don't want call duties, etc, etc, etc. Many residents I know in my own program would love to have a job like this working 2 or 3 days per week. I personally would detest this arrangement as a professional, but different people value different things and pathology attracts a lot of personalities who are perfectly happy working as the employee of another doctor.

This seems to be a pretty big factor with a lot of pathologists I've spoken to. Several pathologists are working in a hospital lab environment that is run by Ameripath/Quest (2 different labs/hospitals; these used to be privately-owned practices but were bought out by said company a while back). Those who I had spoken to were hired after the practices were bought, so they didn't see any of that money. Anyway, they had pretty much said that they were perfectly willing to trade the part of their salary that they would otherwise make as a partner in PP in exchange for not having to deal with the administrative headaches that come with owning a practice. They like the ability to punch in, sign out cases, punch out and forget about work until the next day.

Several residents at a program I'm rotating at now are of similar mind-sets. One had said "I'm not a businessman nor am I an entrepreneur. I'm fine with being an employee when I'm done." He's currently a 4th year resident looking for a fellowship at a big GI reference lab.
 
Because the people who write the rules are the ones who benefit from the exceptions. This is the same reason why politics and lobbying are so lucrative.

That is being too cynical with regards to MOC. For decades people took the boards with the understanding that it was a lifetime certificate. It would be completely unethical for them to say, "ummm excuse me, your certificate is no longer valid." People could sue and win. The ABP announced years in advance that starting in 2008 all board certificates would be valid for ten years from that date of passing. There have been no exceptions to the rules.
 
1. Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff). Also we should have fellowships in interventional procedures for obtaining tissue sample. We should definitely not allow pHDs to get hold of molecular labs. We should rebrand ourselves "Diagnostic medicine"

Sounds really good, but I dont think it will ever happen.
 
What I am doing in this form, is raising awareness of what actually plagues our speciality, not what organizations like CAP want neophytes to believe (to be fair I do think there are "some" proactive people in CAP, and they are doing something to end the "unprofessional" practice that other specialities especially gastroenterology and urology have "shamelessly" adopted to steal from us e.g. their push for full disclosure of service charges in the state of Pennsylvania). What I would like is a more "concentrated" effort in this regards rather than diffusing the critical importance of these issues by diluting them with other far less pressing issues.

I understand CAP is a political organization and like all political bodies it has to pander to various factions including certain academic departments whose sole objective is getting governmental funds for their "surplus" residency positions without regards to how it effects the speciality as a whole.

Some other views:

1. Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff). Also we should have fellowships in interventional procedures for obtaining tissue sample. We should definitely not allow pHDs to get hold of molecular labs. We should rebrand ourselves "Diagnostic medicine"

2. There should be an oral component to the boards so that all suboptimal candidates can be weeded out before they contaminate the work force.

3. There should be intense teaching of the "business of diagnostic medicine" in residency programs.

4. Mandatory MOC for everyone.

Good thoughts, thanks. I think your points come across much better this way. I don't know how oral boards would weed out suboptimal candidates though - I think residency programs have to do a much better job of weeding out suboptimal candidates. For all the paranoia and complaining on SDN about programs firing residents, there should be a way for programs to not pass residents who are not qualified. Agree that residencies should teach more about business - the odd thing is that a lot of academic programs do have people who are quite knowledgeable about these matters, the "problem" is that they are often not pathologists, so many residents and faculty do not think of learning from them. In my program we had meetings and lectures from the department administrator (not an MD) as well as the head biller, other administrators. I thought quite helpful.

ASCP seems much more on top of the in-office lab issue than CAP.
 
Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff).

What do you mean by this? That pathology should also absorb diagnostic radiology, or is it some other imaging modality that you're talking about?
 
What do you mean by this? That pathology should also absorb diagnostic radiology, or is it some other imaging modality that you're talking about?

I think hes talking about in vivo endoscopy..I dont know much about it. It has something to do with making tissue diagnoses with in vivo imaging..dont know how it works, but at the CAP meeting as part of the transformation luncheon, it was recommended that we as pathologists get involved with this before we lose our stake in it.
 
What if Walmart got into the pathology gig...

 
1. With the healthcare reform emphasis on primary care, the residency spots for primary care will increase while those for specialists will decrease. For pathology, I believe this will be an excellent thing. Though CAP disagrees with me on this.

2. With the healthcare reform, one of the quality improvement objectives is getting incentives for MOC. I believe this will also be an excellent thing for pathology.

Discuss.

You can go to the CAP website to check their agenda items relating to healthcare reform.
 
Healthcare is going to have to be "reformed" again because the previous reforms did nothing about costs. So who knows what things will look like in even 5 years. I think the only thing you can bank on is that hospital administrators will continue to increase in number and salary.
 
1. With the healthcare reform emphasis on primary care, the residency spots for primary care will increase while those for specialists will decrease. For pathology, I believe this will be an excellent thing. Though CAP disagrees with me on this.

2. With the healthcare reform, one of the quality improvement objectives is getting incentives for MOC. I believe this will also be an excellent thing for pathology.

Discuss.

You can go to the CAP website to check their agenda items relating to healthcare reform.

If what you post here really comes to pass, then 👍
 
If what you post here really comes to pass, then 👍

Gotta take the 5% good with the 95% bad! (decreased revenue, mucho decreased revenue, and much increased CMS rules/regulations/harassers that consume your time/money, and taxes, taxes, and taxes)
 
Gotta take the 5% good with the 95% bad! (decreased revenue, mucho decreased revenue, and much increased CMS rules/regulations/harassers that consume your time/money, and taxes, taxes, and taxes)

I just meant that if what he specifically said happened (healthcare reform or not), then that would be great...not that healthcare reform as it stands is a good thing.
 
I just wish there were more like I, thrombus, ex-pcm, dermpath doc etc. (sensible aggressive types) and we could take back what is rightfully ours instead of mega labs and other specialities exploiting us like cheap labor.

I bet there would be an uproar if a pathologist hired a couple of urologists and paid them a small percentage of the revenues they generated.

I am sick of the loser and passive attitude among pathologists in general.

Right now pathologists, are like the kid that is bullied (by megalabs and otther specialities) everyday to hand over part of his/her lunch money.

We, as pathologists, should be ashamed of our attitude (I am talking about surgical pathologists only, people who actually have a clinical role not pseudopathologists aka experimental and clinical pathologists who are just leeches absorbing clinical revenue generated by surgical pathologists in academic centers).

oh man..I agree...but i see many of our ilk getting tired of the fight and retiring or going into academia for rock bottom salaries
 
I am talking about surgical pathologists only, people who actually have a clinical role not pseudopathologists aka experimental and clinical pathologists who are just leeches absorbing clinical revenue generated by surgical pathologists in academic centers

I missed this earlier, what exactly are you trying to say about research-oriented pathologists?
 
This is a good forum. There are some intelligent pathologists here.

Enkidu, in response to your question:

I am a diagnostic surgical pathologist. I consider a pathologist my peer, when the following pre-requisites are met:

(1) Signs-out 40-50 cases/ day, five days a week ranging from biopsies to complex resections involving multiple parts (After years of such sign-out, it is okay to devote much of your time to one or two organs of special interest; but this should only come after a couple of years of signing out everything).

(2) Can sign-out most of the stuff independently and sends out only stuff that has controversial diagnostic criteria e.g. certain spitz tumors, and the returning consultation letter almost always agrees with him/her.

(3) Can diagnose diseases from various organs with equal confidence. Equally proficient in all tissue diagnostic modalities including cytopathology etc.

(4) Has a vast knowledge base .

(5) If there is a genuine need, publishes stuff to enhance diagnostics.

In my observation, pathologist who have poor diagnostic skills or cannot handle the pressure of the daily sign-out, usually hide in labs or under the guise of various admin duties. I do not have much respect for them. Ofcourse, there are stellar researchers but I do not think they pose as "pathologists". I have a lot of respect for them. I think it is high time pathology separated into two distinct brances, housed in different parts of the hospital: diagnostic medicine i.e.current diagnostic surgical pathology and experimental pathology i.e. basic science research stuff.

In this way there will be no confusion, as to what one is really doing or what ones capabilities really are.

More importantly the researchers should get their salaries from the grants etc. while the diagnosticians should get their salaries from the clinical revenue they generate. This will create a fair system where you reap what you sow.
 
(5) If there is a genuine need, publishes stuff to enhance diagnostics.

Of course, there are stellar researchers but I do not think they pose as "pathologists". I have a lot of respect for them.

Interesting. By this you mean that a pathologist who does more research than this is no longer a real pathologist? That seems a little strange to me. I would tend to think that the pathologist who has an active and funded basic research program related to pathology is in a stronger position within the profession, rather than a weaker position.

I think it is high time pathology separated into two distinct brances, housed in different parts of the hospital: diagnostic medicine i.e.current diagnostic surgical pathology and experimental pathology i.e. basic science research stuff.

But these are separated, aren't they? Pathologists with basic science research programs certainly have lab space of their own, right? I can't imagine that they try to fit their research lab into the hospital lab.

More importantly the researchers should get their salaries from the grants etc. while the diagnosticians should get their salaries from the clinical revenue they generate. This will create a fair system where you reap what you sow.

There has been some confusion about this, though. Do pathologists with significant protected time for research get paid the same as purely diagnostic pathologists? It seems that you believe they are, in which case you think that their salary should be decreased?

It kind of seems like that would be to the detriment of pathology, though. Since the translational research that comes out of the laboratories of pathologist-researchers is the future of the field, I would think that it should be incentivized, rather than disincentivized.
 
It is no small coincidence that the best pathologists (i.e. recognized experts) are also great teachers and great researchers.
 
Interesting. By this you mean that a pathologist who does more research than this is no longer a real pathologist? That seems a little strange to me. I would tend to think that the pathologist who has an active and funded basic research program related to pathology is in a stronger position within the profession, rather than a weaker position.

I think raider is just having a bad day.
 
Surgical pathology started in the department of surgery and later on moved into the department of pathology. I just wish, that it had remained separate and developed into a new clinical discipline(diagnostic medicine).

If you want to delve deeper read about the history of surgical pathology (Enkidu, Rosai wrote a very interesting book about it; you can probably get it from some library), you will get a better idea of where I am coming from.
 
It is no small coincidence that the best pathologists (i.e. recognized experts) are also great teachers and great researchers.

Shockingly, pathstudent has made an authoritative statement here that a little thought and consideration shows not to be entirely true. Experts are experts because they only do one narrow thing, day in and day out, for years. Great teachers? I have seen a few famous experts who do happen to be good at teaching, and at least an equal number who are awful, despite the fact that they know their subject so well. Great researchers? I can't think of a single super elite diagnostician who I think produces great research. Yes, they publish various series and even the occasional translational paper, with the help of numerous fellows and collaborators. But great research is experimental and is often done by the people supported primarily by grants. So I see Raider's view that these are two different kinds of people, and maybe they should be given different names as he suggests, but I disagree that they should be geographically separated. On the contrary, in a good academic department the two camps need to be forced to attend each other's talks, bump into each other in the halls, frequently exchange ideas, and collaborate.
 
Hi, I am a 3rd year medical student with good amount of interest in pathology. To be honest, you guys make me scared to go into this field, but I know you guys are the select few 😛

It's good that you guys actually have time to talk on the forums though. I can't see neurosurgeons doing this.
 
If diagnostic pathology and research should be separate, then how do we expect the field to grow and change, or should we be content with the status quo? The basis of our specialty relies on techniques over 100 years old. Should we let clinicians and other researchers develop new diagnostic markers for disease?

Raider, do you only send consults, such as difficult neuro specimens to neuropathologists who have years of experience in signing out general surgicals prior to specializing in neuropath?
 
Surgical pathology started in the department of surgery and later on moved into the department of pathology. I just wish, that it had remained separate and developed into a new clinical discipline(diagnostic medicine).

If you want to delve deeper read about the history of surgical pathology (Enkidu, Rosai wrote a very interesting book about it; you can probably get it from some library), you will get a better idea of where I am coming from.

The field of pathology, just like all fields of medicine, will move forward. This is largely a result of the work those bench-science dorks do. We can either be part of that future and integrate this into our practice, or we can let other services do it for us, evenutally leaving pathology irrelevant. Like nuclear medicine.
 
I send stuff only to pathologists whom I know personally and who know me well. All of these pathologists are excellent in all facets of surgical pathology and stellar in one or two organ systems.
 
1. Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff). Also we should have fellowships in interventional procedures for obtaining tissue sample. We should definitely not allow pHDs to get hold of molecular labs. We should rebrand ourselves "Diagnostic medicine"


I have already started telling people(out of medicine) who ask what specialty I'm in that it's called "Diagnostic medicine" and then explain further about diagnosis and how it is now inherently linked to prognosis and more often ,recently and in the future, to therapy.
I advice everyone to say the same thing.
Remember- If you build it, he will come.
 
I can't think of a single super elite diagnostician who I think produces great research. Yes, they publish various series and even the occasional translational paper, with the help of numerous fellows and collaborators. But great research is experimental and is often done by the people supported primarily by grants. So I see Raider's view that these are two different kinds of people, and maybe they should be given different names as he suggests

This logic seems odd to me. You can be a pathologist that does only research, a pathologist that does only diagnostics, and a pathologist that does both. You could even be a pathologist that does neither... maybe he couldn't find a job. The point is that they're all pathologists. They get paid differently (or not at all), and are interested in different things, but denying researchers who are board certified in pathology the title "pathologist" is... petty.
 
1. Surgical pathology should split from clinical pathology (noone gets paid for that nonsense anyway) and take charge of all diagnostic modalities including molecular pathology and imaging (especially emerging in vivo stuff). Also we should have fellowships in interventional procedures for obtaining tissue sample. We should definitely not allow pHDs to get hold of molecular labs. We should rebrand ourselves "Diagnostic medicine"


I have already started telling people(out of medicine) who ask what specialty I'm in that it's called "Diagnostic medicine" and then explain further about diagnosis and how it is now inherently linked to prognosis and more often ,recently and in the future, to therapy.
I advice everyone to say the same thing.
Remember- If you build it, he will come.

I really don't get all this "we need to split from CP" stuff. As far as I see it, they are not at all combined. You can be boarded in AP, CP, or APCP. If you don't like it, just don't do it and hire someone to take all your CP responsibilities. There is no real reason why academic departments need to be combined, and in fact, many are not.

And how can you just take molecular path? There is certainly overlap with CP. Don't forget there is also clinical genetics doing much of this work. I agree that it would be NICE to have all the diagnostic testing done under one roof, but you will need to recruit people from other fields to make that happen. I LOVE your idea of interventional pathology... but again, you will have to fight other departments for this. Best opportunity would be to learn to use a US machine and do your own US-guided Bxs. But Rads is in the crapper right now too, and is going to fight for it.
 
This logic seems odd to me. You can be a pathologist that does only research, a pathologist that does only diagnostics, and a pathologist that does both. You could even be a pathologist that does neither... maybe he couldn't find a job. The point is that they're all pathologists. They get paid differently (or not at all), and are interested in different things, but denying researchers who are board certified in pathology the title "pathologist" is... petty.

The point is that they are different jobs, different roles, with some different but some overlapping products. Nobody is suggesting yanking the pathologist title, just qualifying it, as in hematopathologist, neuropathologist, cytopathologist, or my recently discovered new favorite, "laboratorian." People who don't actually sign out but are board certified are appropriately termed experimental pathologists. Whatever, I don't care what people call themselves, but there is a difference between people who sign out 100% of their time and people who do 80% or 100% research.
 
I don't think we should split from CP at all, but rather merge AP and CP into one residency (which is pretty much the direction things are going). There are certainly parts of CP which are very important for practicing pathologists (molecular, BB, flow, etc) but there are also parts that just aren't important beyond the lab management aspect (chemistry). I think the issue with CP training (and the board exam) is that there is so much detailed focus on traditional outdated CP (chem) but relatively very little on molecular, etc. There was hardly any molecular on my CP boards, and what was on there was random esoteric syndromes. They should put the molecular histograms on there and have you call a peak clonal or not and stuff like that IMO rather than testing esoteric chemistry methods.
 
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