History taking?

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The new guy

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I am a first year med student who has just learned how to take a patient history...and I am struggling. I know OLDCARTS and all that, but I find that when I talk to an actual patient, the attending expects questions that aren't included on your typical checklist. Anyone have any good resources which teach you how to take a good history?

Also, I'm wondering if it's even normal to feel clueless...I have spoken to some of my classmates, and none of them seem to share my concerns...

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Right now just focus on the standard questions. As you broaden your knowledge base and learn more about how certain diseases present clinically (mostly in 2nd year), you'll start to figure out what the important questions to ask are based on the chief complaint and it should come more naturally because you'll understand why your asking some of those questions.
 
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You don't need to feel bad about feeling completely lost. Getting a good history requires at least some knowledge of diseases, and that's not what you learn 1st year. I remember being extremely frustrated 1st year at being expected to be able to take a good history without enough background information to actually do that well. My school really emphasizes the OPQRST mnemonic, which can be adapted for many complaints aside from pain and generally will get you at least the basics. Don't worry, this will all get better as you keep going through the rest of your time in med school
 
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I'm not sure what OLDCARTS stands for but probably some of the same things we cover with SAMPLE OPQRST (Symptoms, Allergies, medications, past medical history, last oral intake(not really needed unless diabetic), events leading up to problem. OPQRST: onset, provocation(what caused it), quality, radiates, severity, time. Maybe those can help you out if you need some extra mnemonics. It might help to find a second year and ask them to send you a patient history they wrote up if they have one saved and see what all they covered (just look at history part and not physical part for now).
 
Right now just focus on the standard questions. As you broaden your knowledge base and learn more about how certain diseases present clinically (mostly in 2nd year), you'll start to figure out what are the important questions to ask based on the chief complaint and it should come more naturally because you'll understand why your asking some of those questions.

Fair enough
 
It's normal to feel clueless. Especially in M1 you don't have the educational foundation to take a focused and competent history. IMO, the goal of clinical skills training in M1 is to simply become familiar with the motions. You should be able to bang out an H&P from memory so that when you get on the wards you can focus more on your differential and what you need to do to rule things in or out rather than saying, "how do ____ part of the exam?"

I'd say your experience is pretty par for the course.
 
As a fellow M1, I can tell you that everyone has either megaloblastic anemia or Down syndrome. Try asking them if they have those.
 
I am a first year med student who has just learned how to take a patient history...and I am struggling. I know OLDCARTS and all that, but I find that when I talk to an actual patient, the attending expects questions that aren't included on your typical checklist. Anyone have any good resources which teach you how to take a good history?

Also, I'm wondering if it's even normal to feel clueless...I have spoken to some of my classmates, and none of them seem to share my concerns...

You learn more, and you get better. OPQRST or OLDCARTS or whatever you want. The more you know about disease processes, the better a history you can get.

As for your classmates, many of them feel clueless but won't admit it, and a subset are of the "I think I'm great but I don't know what I don't know" variety. One of the truths of M1.
 
Yeah, as an M1 you're doing just fine but keep trying to improve and adapt whatever feedback your attendings are giving you. It does get much easier as you learn the disease process and the other questions will flow naturally as you are refining your mental differential. For now, just learning the basic set of questions and how to navigate a basic interview is huge. Get your CC, do your OLDCARTS/PQRST/whatever HPI, do a decent ROS, take a thorough past medical history, family hx, social/sexual hx, etc. Just learn to ask the questions and get comfortable doing it in order so you don't ever miss the basics.
 
You're going to suck as a MS1. It's expected.

Just accept it, learn from whatever feedback you get (next person that comes in with those symptoms, make sure you ask about whatever the attending questioned you about), get better every time you do a H&P, and rock MS3 which is the first time any of this crap matters (at least for grades). The first time it matters for real is as an intern (maybe a sub-I)
 
I think the Kaplan prep book for CS has a great history taking chapter after going through it and the cases my history taking got tighter and cleaner. You could pick one up from when the upper classmen empty out their lockers for nothing. Or just get a used copy. If your school tests you in a CS manner for a particular organ system like mine did, then you could review the CS cases for that complaint to tighten up your history taking too.

But otherwise, I agree with the others. It's impossible to take good histories without a clinical foundation. But you could at least get a mechanical structure to organize information to report to your attending, which I think the Kaplan CS book does a bang up job on.
 
I am a first year med student who has just learned how to take a patient history...and I am struggling. I know OLDCARTS and all that, but I find that when I talk to an actual patient, the attending expects questions that aren't included on your typical checklist. Anyone have any good resources which teach you how to take a good history?

Also, I'm wondering if it's even normal to feel clueless...I have spoken to some of my classmates, and none of them seem to share my concerns...

Don't worry about it, it's one of those things that take experience and practice. I'm not familiar with OLDCARTS, but I'm assuming it's a generic HPI+history+allergies. Every patient presentation is going to have something that does fit into the generic formula that you want to know and knowing what you (and the attending) want to know will come with time.

Examples: anyone with a bleeding issue you will want to known anti-coagulation status, or hx of bleeding disorders/issues. Vomiting blood you will want to know risk factors for variceal bleed. SOB and chest pain if they are on hormonal birth control because that's a PE risk factor. And the list goes on and on. There are specific questions you'll want to know specific to every presentation and it's totally normal to miss these things as a M1.
 
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For the HPI if you think OLDCARTS is too basic there are other mnemonics.

As others have said OPQRST is a good start.

I personally use OPQRST-AMTIP as a framework.

Onset - when did it start?/when did you first notice it?
Provokes- what were you doing when it started?
Quality -what does it feel like? (try not to use leading questions like- is it sharp/dull/pressure/burning etc)
Region/Radiation - where is the problem? / does it spread anywhere? / has it changed location?
Severity - classic 10 scale
Timing - constant or does it come and go? and if so how often does it occur and how long does it last?
Associated signs/symptoms - have you noticed anything else wrong or abnormal recently?
Modifying factors - does anything make it better? / does anything make it worse?
Treatment thus far - have you tried anything yet? has it helped? (meds/supplements/diet changes/physical therapy/other interventions)
Impact - how has it affected your life? changed any habits? (exercise tolerance(climbing stairs or walking to your mailbox)/sleeping/eating/working)
Past events - has anything like this ever happened before?

When you get more experience over the next few years you can tailor this approach to each patient and remove/add things as necessary.

With practice you'll learn how to ask the right questions in a quick and efficient manner.

I can usually run through these questions in <5min for a new complaint. Gets you a very complete and accurate HPI.
 
It's normal to feel clueless. Especially in M1 you don't have the educational foundation to take a focused and competent history. IMO, the goal of clinical skills training in M1 is to simply become familiar with the motions. You should be able to bang out an H&P from memory so that when you get on the wards you can focus more on your differential and what you need to do to rule things in or out rather than saying, "how do ____ part of the exam?"

I'd say your experience is pretty par for the course.
Part of the problem is that the clinical skills course is taught alongside while you're going thru basic sciences. So coming up with a differential is pretty much impossible as well as getting practice in the ruling in and out process.
 
Yeah, forming a differential before you've learned MS2 material (which, at least at my school, is when you learn when all the stuff breaks down in the human body) is near impossible. However, taking a history and knowing the pertinent positives and negatives would be quite difficult as well if you didn't know the signs/symptoms/risk factors for MI/PE/whatever.

I think the goal is to get you accustomed to taking a history period. Simply going through the motion so that you are comfortable with it. As you learn more about disease processes, your ability to focus on pertinent positives and negatives will become more clear.

As a MS4, there are still times where I forget to ask about a risk factor (for example, the 30 year old female with chest pain likely due to a PE on my Step 2 CS for whom I just realized I didn't get a OCP history), but you'll pick it up.
 
Also, make sure to ask about any other problems. I don't know what sort of clinical setting you're in, but I've been working with a family med doc, so his patients come in with a whole bunch of things they want to ask about. I find it helpful to ask what brought them in, then before I go into OPQRST, ask if there's anything else (and then ask that again at the end, because sometimes then they'll have thought of something/feel more comfortable telling me about multiple complaints). It's obviously going to vary by setting, but at least for primary care, this can be really helpful (and can help uncover risk factors/related things - "I'm here for pain in my legs that comes and goes," "Okay, anything else you'd like to discuss today?", "Well, I'd like to talk about quitting smoking" - and there you go). 🙂
 
I am a first year med student who has just learned how to take a patient history...and I am struggling. I know OLDCARTS and all that, but I find that when I talk to an actual patient, the attending expects questions that aren't included on your typical checklist. Anyone have any good resources which teach you how to take a good history?

Also, I'm wondering if it's even normal to feel clueless...I have spoken to some of my classmates, and none of them seem to share my concerns...


They are lying. They may put on a calm front, but they are ****ing themselves underneath.

And yes, it's completely normal. Welcome to medical school, you're fitting in just fine.
 
As a fellow M1, I can tell you that everyone has either megaloblastic anemia or Down syndrome. Try asking them if they have those.

Or a broken humerus.

OP, it's ok. Stop thinking about a checklist and just have a conversation with the patient. The sooner you figure that out the better things will be.
 
Or a broken humerus.

OP, it's ok. Stop thinking about a checklist and just have a conversation with the patient. The sooner you figure that out the better things will be.

Carefully guided conversation, maybe. In the ED, I simply don't care about that one episode of diarrhea in 1998.
 
Carefully guided conversation, maybe. In the ED, I simply don't care about that one episode of diarrhea in 1998.

Good thing M1s like the OP aren't interviewing ED patients. OP is learning to interact with patients and do a complete history, not figure out the problem with a focused history.
 
Good thing M1s like the OP aren't interviewing ED patients. OP is learning to interact with patients and do a complete history, not figure out the problem with a focused history.

Hmm. I think I disagree with you though on approach. An M1-2 working with an attending doesn't have the luxury of going in and just getting to know the patient like 2 people shooting the breeze for hours. A formal structure is useful. Sure that may make for more mechanical interactions because the bandwidth in the junior doc's mind will be consumed by wondering what to ask and so forth. But collecting basic information in a timely fashion is the primary goal. As long as you are nice and respectful you don't have to worry about finesse or charm at that point.

Learning the basic structure of the h&p is hard at first. And is its own skill that needs to be learned along with the basics of medicine. The step 2 CS is no joke these days. The amount of stuff they want a junior clinician to do in minutes takes practice. I think a formal structure is the way to go towards this goal.
 
Hmm. I think I disagree with you though on approach. An M1-2 working with an attending doesn't have the luxury of going in and just getting to know the patient like 2 people shooting the breeze for hours. A formal structure is useful. Sure that may make for more mechanical interactions because the bandwidth in the junior doc's mind will be consumed by wondering what to ask and so forth. But collecting basic information in a timely fashion is the primary goal. As long as you are nice and respectful you don't have to worry about finesse or charm at that point.

Learning the basic structure of the h&p is hard at first. And is its own skill that needs to be learned along with the basics of medicine. The step 2 CS is no joke these days. The amount of stuff they want a junior clinician to do in minutes takes practice. I think a formal structure is the way to go towards this goal.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think that being relaxed and focusing more on the flow of the conversation (rather than the checklist of things you want/need to know) helps a lot as an M1. I absolutely agree that knowledge of a formal structure is necessary, but I think it is better used as a way to mentally review the information you've already got rather than as a template to follow step by step. Obviously this is based on my own experiences, but as an M1 I learned to let the conversation guide the order in which I asked questions. For example, if shortness of breath is in the patient's CC/HPI, I'll go ahead and ask them about past history and family history of heart/lung as well as social stuff like smoking before continuing on with the typical HPI questions. To me this also helps develop rapport because you appear interested in the patient's past and family. I've not had a problem with time (either on OSCEs or in clinic).

There are obviously many ways to successfully obtain a history, but for me it was (and still is) much easier and faster to get all the information in an order that flows with the conversation, rather than the order that appears in the textbook.

Edit: Especially now that we are learning to develop a differential (MS2) I find that I can group the questions I predict to have negative responses and ask them at the end of the interview (or during the physical to save even more time). Filling in the template of necessary questions in that sort of rapid fire fashion saves time and also helps me to mentally review all the information.
 
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Sure the tension between getting the facts and letting the narrative flow is a fundamental tension inherent to the process. No easy way to get everything in balance with every patient. Except practice and more practice.
 
I agree with what you're saying, but I think that being relaxed and focusing more on the flow of the conversation (rather than the checklist of things you want/need to know) helps a lot as an M1. I absolutely agree that knowledge of a formal structure is necessary, but I think it is better used as a way to mentally review the information you've already got rather than as a template to follow step by step. Obviously this is based on my own experiences, but as an M1 I learned to let the conversation guide the order in which I asked questions. For example, if shortness of breath is in the patient's CC/HPI, I'll go ahead and ask them about past history and family history of heart/lung as well as social stuff like smoking before continuing on with the typical HPI questions. To me this also helps develop rapport because you appear interested in the patient's past and family. I've not had a problem with time (either on OSCEs or in clinic).

There are obviously many ways to successfully obtain a history, but for me it was (and still is) much easier and faster to get all the information in an order that flows with the conversation, rather than the order that appears in the textbook.

Edit: Especially now that we are learning to develop a differential (MS2) I find that I can group the questions I predict to have negative responses and ask them at the end of the interview (or during the physical to save even more time). Filling in the template of necessary questions in that sort of rapid fire fashion saves time and also helps me to mentally review all the information.

I would definitely agree with you, but for me I had trouble allowing things to flow naturally initially because I would always forget components of the history when things got out of order. It's not a problem now, but when first learning things it was important for me to try and stick to some kind of rigid structure.
 
Good thing M1s like the OP aren't interviewing ED patients. OP is learning to interact with patients and do a complete history, not figure out the problem with a focused history.

Was simply alluding to the fact that letting it turn into an actual conversation can be a bit of an issue depending on the patient. For the ED, or for Step 2 CS as was mentioned above, or for rotations, or for early clinical exposure type things that schools do.

Pardon me, just passing through.
 
Good thing M1s like the OP aren't interviewing ED patients. OP is learning to interact with patients and do a complete history, not figure out the problem with a focused history.
I am interviewing ED patients, and i suck at it 🙁
 
My first semester in this is really rough. They are making us get history of present illness with OLDCARTS, Past medical history, Social History with OLDRICE, Family history, routine health maintenance, and ROS 1 and 2, all in 30 minutes. Each one of these has way more questions than this post implies too as the older students will know. I feel like its a ridiculous amount for them to expect us to be able to do in that amount of time.
 
My first semester in this is really rough. They are making us get history of present illness with OLDCARTS, Past medical history, Social History with OLDRICE, Family history, routine health maintenance, and ROS 1 and 2, all in 30 minutes. Each one of these has way more questions than this post implies too as the older students will know. I feel like its a ridiculous amount for them to expect us to be able to do in that amount of time.

30 minutes for a complete history without the physical exam is more than enough. But I've never heard of 1 and 2 for ROS.
 
30 minutes for a complete history without the physical exam is more than enough. But I've never heard of 1 and 2 for ROS.

maybe they mean a focused ros for the complaint and then a general ros for the things they wanted to talk about but forgot to mention
 
What's a good way to get more practice with the physical exam? My preceptor has very few real patients so all I've done was listen to heart/lungs and check a knee or two.
 
My first semester in this is really rough. They are making us get history of present illness with OLDCARTS, Past medical history, Social History with OLDRICE, Family history, routine health maintenance, and ROS 1 and 2, all in 30 minutes. Each one of these has way more questions than this post implies too as the older students will know. I feel like its a ridiculous amount for them to expect us to be able to do in that amount of time.

So, in real life, you will sometimes get patients who will attempt to relate everything to some absolutely unimportant details and chew up your time. You will develop tactful ways of preventing this. But for on-task conversations, you can readily accomplish what you need to accomplish for a decent admission H&P in much less than 30 minutes.

In short...

It's not ridiculous. It always feels that way. Then it's not.

Step 1 studying feels ridiculous. Then it's not.

Step 2.

Residency applications.

Residency interview season.

Match day, plus or minus moving for residency.

Intern year.

It always feels overwhelming. Then you realize it isn't. And you're better for it at every step of the way.
 
This boils down to practice. Of course you suck at it, how many times have you done it? I think, as medical students, we're fairly used to picking up academic concepts and memorizing crap with amazing results; however, communicating with other humans, especially sick, demented, delusional, sad, lonely people is really an art form. Attendings are good because we haven't had hundreds of H&Ps - we've had thousands. The more experience you get, the better questions you will ask and the more efficient your "discovery phase" will be. I also think the various acronyms are nonsense, but if they help, go for it. One of the hardest things to get better at is being able to deviate from the "blanket coverage" H&P and more "focused" H&P. One of my mentors taught me to be "investigative" - in other words, you are constantly asking yourself why, more pertinent questions are provoked vs just asking the standard "how bad is your pain on a scale of 1-10?"

Part of your development will also come from your ability to tap other sources about the patient and reduce the nonsense questions you will document for billing purposes. For example: ED RN triage note "30yoM Right flank pain starting 4 hours ago radiating to the groin, been nauseated and vomiting." This could potentially alter your diagnostic thinking, unless you use it as an "optional framework." If you walk into the room, the patient is doing the kidney stone shuffle, vomiting into a bag while holding their right side - you can rip through your history pretty quick. Of course a caveat applies, unless you've seen a bunch of these (and presentations that are similar but are potentially more lethal) you may miss things - hence the "optional framework." This patient has obvious severe pain in the right flank radiating to the groin associated with N/V. Your initial question to the patient after introductions could simply be: "Mr. Jones, I understand you've had severe right sided pain that shoots into your groin with vomiting for 4 hours, have you had kidney stones before? Any fever or chills? Blood in the urine, pain with urinating?

Obviously there are more questions you would need to ask and this is a slam dunk case - but in a 30yoM stones are quickly rising to the top of your differential, you would also consider, torsion, UTI, pyelo, etc etc. The differential evolves as you are taking the history as opposed to "shotgunning" questions according to a mnemonic - unfortunately, you need to get the practice of shotgunning first, seeing a ton of patients, understanding pathology, and then your ability to power through an H&P will improve. It's all in the reps. Just practice. We all suck at them initially, doesn't make you dumb or unqualified - it makes you inexperienced, and that's one of the reasons this process takes so long. Good luck.
 
What's a good way to get more practice with the physical exam? My preceptor has very few real patients so all I've done was listen to heart/lungs and check a knee or two.

I recruited my fiancé for many, many run throughs of the physical exam prior to SP exams. If you have an SO, that's probably the best way to go.
 
practice
practice
practice
practice
practice
practice

it just comes with time. During your 3rd year, you'll do like 100 H&Ps/week and the difference really shows. I was absolutely lost during my first rotation, now I have a structure and a reason for asking questions. It ain't perfect, but it's getting there.
 
I recruited my fiancé for many, many run throughs of the physical exam prior to SP exams. If you have an SO, that's probably the best way to go.

The history and physical exam is sacred to the medical professional. Learn to do it well.

If you want to perfect your H&P, you go door to door in your training hospital and you take a good H&P on every person on a wing. You do this with approval from internal medicine and with your medical school. You compare your results to the resident's note, to the attendings note, and you note disparity. For disparity, you ask a resident and then an attending about it. "Ma'am or Sir, I noted a subtle systolic murmur at the apex, is that noise or did I hear it, ma'am or sir - I'd appreciate your input." Why is this 3+ edema and not 2+? Why is the strength 4 and not 4+? I hear a crackle there and you don't hear it...


The physical exam is good and bad. It's notably not sensitive and not specific. It needs to be done, it can give you useful clinical information, and it is most importantly a bridge between the doctor and the patient. What we forget is that the physical exam gives us a direct relationship to the patient, it's something no other profession has or wants. We own this. We are allowed to examine our patients physical bodies to determine physical illness (of course with poor sensitivity and specificity typically) so use that power wisely and effectively. Learn how to do it well - it will serve you well over the course of your hopefully long career.
 
30 minutes for a complete history without the physical exam is more than enough. But I've never heard of 1 and 2 for ROS.

That's what some older students have told me, they said I just feel overwhelmed now and it'll be easier as we go. I can't see that yet but I'll take your word for it. ROS 1 is just pertinent positives and negatives after old carts
 
The problem with practicing on each other is that you have no idea if you're performing the maneuver correctly, and you don't REALLY know what to look for when you feel a pathological finding. So yeah, experience and taking advantage of patients with conditions when you're on the wards.
 
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