- Joined
- Aug 26, 2005
- Messages
- 39
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Last edited:
Honors first 2 years = WORTHLESS
- Thread starter mudshadow
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2005
- Messages
- 187
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 4,531
- Attending Physician
i've heard pretty much the same thing from upperclassmen at my school. supposedly 3rd year evals are what really count in your class rank (here at least).
In Iserson's he lists some basic science classes you should try to honor if you want a specific specialty, . . . like if you are interested in surgery you should try to honor gross but can just let embryo go with a pass. It helps you prioritize your efforts. But I've heard that not honoring isn't the end of the world, it really matters little compared to board scores and grades on clinic rotations. Its really just an extra edge, like if it comes down to you and another candidate who was equal in all other ways, this could put you over I guess. Don't kill yourself to honor tho, save the heroic efforts for your boards.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 293
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Well it will matter somewhat especially since it will help you get into AOA, which can make a difference when applying to competitive residencies. I agree with the above poster, 3rd year grades are the most important. This has been communicated to me by professors, residency directors, and the book by Iserson. My school doesnt even offer honors during the first two years, so hopefully it doesnt matter too much.
W
Wizard of Oz
Funny thing--my school still uses the A-B-C, so I was a little confused when I first read this.
Everybody has an opinion on how everything compares. I think that it depends a little bit on exactly what residency you are interested in. If it is at the top of the competative ranks, then everything matters because anything can ultimately be used to discriminate applicants.
My advice, though, is to not get hung up on it. Do your best, whatever your best is.
Everybody has an opinion on how everything compares. I think that it depends a little bit on exactly what residency you are interested in. If it is at the top of the competative ranks, then everything matters because anything can ultimately be used to discriminate applicants.
My advice, though, is to not get hung up on it. Do your best, whatever your best is.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
I've basically been told this as well by various physicians involved in residency decisions. Basic science years' grades and honors "help", but are very small potatoes in terms of what is deemed important by residency directors. But doing well in the first two years helps for Step 1, and for that reason, you should still try.
- Joined
- May 5, 2006
- Messages
- 228
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 4,531
- Attending Physician
This is VERY not true. It is true that probably nobody will even mention your honors or lack thereof during 1st/2nd year in interviews, but the reason it matters is how you do in 1st and 2nd year greatly affects your class rank which is hugely important when applying to certain specialties and also is used to determine AOA status. If you think you might even consider applying to one of the more competitive specialties (ie. derm, ortho, ENT, plastics, radiology) then do not blow off 1st/2nd year courses. However it is true that 4th year really doesn't matter with the exception of the rotations in the specialty you are applying for.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2004
- Messages
- 4,516
- Reaction score
- 2,844
- Points
- 5,246
- Attending Physician
it's a little bit of a trick...
it's true that clerkships are much more important, especially because at many schools your GPA is heavily weighted toward those rotations. the trick is that it's relatively difficult to separate yourself from your classmates on the wards. for the most part, everyone shows up on time and everyone shows interest, which is a big bulk of your largely subjective clerkship grade. the first two years, while relatively underweighted, go a long way toward separating classmates for class rank/AOA status.
it's true that clerkships are much more important, especially because at many schools your GPA is heavily weighted toward those rotations. the trick is that it's relatively difficult to separate yourself from your classmates on the wards. for the most part, everyone shows up on time and everyone shows interest, which is a big bulk of your largely subjective clerkship grade. the first two years, while relatively underweighted, go a long way toward separating classmates for class rank/AOA status.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 293
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I completely understand your logic and I may be ignorant but I have a question. If most people get the same grades in the 3rd year why is it so important to residencies? It seems to me that if everyone scored similar they wouldnt really care. For example, if everyone got around a 33 on the MCAT it wouldnt be that valuable of a test for the ADCOMS.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,423
- Reaction score
- 376
- Points
- 4,751
- Location
- Had a Cooch
- Attending Physician
I would agree that performing well honors or not) during the first two years is good mostly because it will likely lead to a good Step 1 score, which is gold when it comes to any competitive residency, not just the biggies. Think Aneethesiology, EM, etc.
You'll hear all sorts of things from all sorts of sources, but many programs with too many applicants to interview, or even evaluate, will cut off based on Step 1 scores. Unfortunately, it is the most even way to evaluate students from across the country(Honors-A/B/C-P/F).
So, no one will really care about your basics grades, but they WILL care about AOA status, largely based in these years, and the WILL care about Step 1, which has a pretty good correlation to basics.
You'll hear all sorts of things from all sorts of sources, but many programs with too many applicants to interview, or even evaluate, will cut off based on Step 1 scores. Unfortunately, it is the most even way to evaluate students from across the country(Honors-A/B/C-P/F).
So, no one will really care about your basics grades, but they WILL care about AOA status, largely based in these years, and the WILL care about Step 1, which has a pretty good correlation to basics.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2004
- Messages
- 712
- Reaction score
- 12
- Points
- 4,621
- Location
- Denver, CO
- Attending Physician
My understanding (as a second year) is that two things matter third year: your evaluations and our shelfs. At least at my school, your third year grades are largely based on shelf exams, and those grades matter a lot. Second, the evals from third year get inserted into the dean's letter, which also matters. That's my understanding, but if any people farther along in the process know more, please chime in!
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2004
- Messages
- 4,516
- Reaction score
- 2,844
- Points
- 5,246
- Attending Physician
careful. i never said that people get the same grades; i said that it is difficult to separate yourself.
please to explain...
1) say you want to go into OB/GYN. accordingly, you did well in the OB/GYN clerkship, but let's say you hated internal medicine. so you were middle of the road there. luckily for you, OB/GYN residencies will care more about doing well in your OB clerkship than being so-so in IM.
2) let's say you're me. you hate OB/GYN and would rather be a greeter at Wal-Mart than have to catch babies for a living. let's say i do so-so in OB/GYN, but on the other hand i do well in surgery. my specialty doesn't particularly care about OB/GYN, but they like to see a good surgery clerkship grade.
the two students above, if all other things are equal, might have similar GPAs and class ranks when it comes time for ERAS. they have different grades, but aren't really that different in overall performance. so, in a sense, you're not so much competing against your classmates as much as you're competing against your classmates that are going into the same specialty as you are.
i hope that makes sense.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 293
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Yes, that helps - thanks
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2002
- Messages
- 1,187
- Reaction score
- 7
- Points
- 4,571
- Age
- 46
- Location
- Pacific NW
- Resident [Any Field]
counts towards AOA...at least at my school. thats big and can make a difference. work your ass either way...it's gonna prepare you for step 1 which is also very important. don't listen to your Ph.D. professors. most of the crap won't apply clinically, but some of it will be very important...the problem right now is you don't know whats important, so just treat it as all of it is and you should be golden.
work your a$$ off now...it'll pay off for you...i promise.👍
No one cares what you got in genetics or anatomy or whatever. Residency directors care more about clerkship grades and step 1 scores by a wide margin. Half the schools don't have any grades the first two years anyway. Just learn what you can to prepare yourself for boards and enjoy yourself.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2004
- Messages
- 147
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I agree. You dont have to kill yourself in the first 2 years, but its probably a good idea to do as well as you can while still enjoying your life. If you pass every class, your class rank is probably going to be low, and while residencies dont look at your preclinical grades too closely, im pretty sure they will pay attention to the fact you are in the last quartile or bottom of your class.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Messages
- 30,872
- Reaction score
- 10,063
- Points
- 6,731
- Attending Physician
No - If your Step 1 is high, low rank in the basic sci years really won't matter as much - you can still go on to bigger and better things. But that's a big "if" to manage, because doing decently in class and on the boards are usually not unrelated tasks. So that's the rub.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2004
- Messages
- 1,938
- Reaction score
- 3,546
- Points
- 5,921
- Attending Physician
All that really matters is your step 1 score at the end of the day. AOA is nice for buffing the CV, but so are a lot of things.
Half the people at most med schools that give grades get "Honors" (including mine). Whoopee. Doesn't pass the boards for me.
As has been pointed out, many med schools don't even give grades. So what is left? Step 1.
Half the people at most med schools that give grades get "Honors" (including mine). Whoopee. Doesn't pass the boards for me.
As has been pointed out, many med schools don't even give grades. So what is left? Step 1.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,499
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 4,611
- Location
- Hollywood Star Lanes
- Attending Physician
At my school in order to get honors in anatomy you need to have an overall 88% or higher. That is CRAZY. So last year, only about 8 out of 155 people got honors in anatomy. Typically the top 25% or so of the class gets honors in most classes. I'm typically JUST barely out of the honors range. This kinda pisses me off because I do try my hardest but it often falls just short of the top 25% range. Will residencies at least see my class rankings and see that i'm near the top or that I'm doing reasonably well?
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2004
- Messages
- 1,938
- Reaction score
- 3,546
- Points
- 5,921
- Attending Physician
Yeah, it's the same at my school. I think we have a lot of high achievers in my class so more than 25% make honors.
Program directors are just going to pull the files on students who are above a certain USMLE score (like over 220 for example). At that stage, grades don't matter. This is why step 1 matters most. The rest of this conversation is completely moot without a good step 1 score. With a high step 1 score you will get a residency you like (unless you are an uber-competitive dingus and must be in such-and-such a program).
I doubt anyone cares much if you didn't get over 88% in Anatomy, even at the top spots. Most people would be much more impressed if you do well in pathology during second year.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 945
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
- Medical Student
isnt 88% pretty good to have as honors cutoff ? @ vcu its 92%...
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2003
- Messages
- 1,531
- Reaction score
- 48
- Points
- 4,851
- Attending Physician
We don't have any set cut off.....it is the top 15% of the class, so the cut off is variable every block (i.e. for Heme/Onc our cut off was about 94%).
I agree that doing well in school will help you understand material well and that mostly should translate into good board score.....so do your best
- Joined
- May 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,179
- Reaction score
- 26
- Points
- 4,626
- Attending Physician
As others have suggested, I doubt if you would find anything more than anecdotal evidence that people who are on the P=MD train are getting really high board scores. That said, people who honor everything learn alot of pretty useless info.
From what I read above, I gather that STEP1 scores = most important. AOA status = pretty important.
I guess we just have to prepare very well for step 1 but there are med schools (like the one I go to) that actually select AOA based not only on grades but by votes from classmates....As our dean puts it "AOA students would be voted by classmates and it would also take in the consideration of your humanity..." (or something like that). So basically, I get the feeling that at our school, AOA has popularity contest factors to it...
That's kinda messed up.... Is it common among other med schools for AOA to be chosen by classmates? or do you guys think I just got wrong info?😕
I guess we just have to prepare very well for step 1 but there are med schools (like the one I go to) that actually select AOA based not only on grades but by votes from classmates....As our dean puts it "AOA students would be voted by classmates and it would also take in the consideration of your humanity..." (or something like that). So basically, I get the feeling that at our school, AOA has popularity contest factors to it...
That's kinda messed up.... Is it common among other med schools for AOA to be chosen by classmates? or do you guys think I just got wrong info?😕
N
njbmd
Since most people in medical school are NOT going to come even close to Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA), they tend to discount it. It definitely opens doors and it's a good thing to have in terms of residency application. You are specificially asked on ERAS (Electronic Residency Application Service) about your AOA status. Your responses are non-applicable (most people), member, elections are held at end of fourth year and school does not have a chapter of AOA.
Having high USMLE Step I nad II scores are good, having good grades in your clerkships is good too but having a high rank in your class and being able to check that AOA box is wonderful. I didn't have a single residency program director who did not comment on my AOA status. You are likely NOT going to be elected to AOA without good first and second year grades and thus I would never say that Honors in your first two year are not worth the effort.
It it not bad having a program director use terms like "Congratulations on a job well done and your AOA selection" Those "Honors" first 2 years were definitly worth it for me. For others, perhaps not.
Having high USMLE Step I nad II scores are good, having good grades in your clerkships is good too but having a high rank in your class and being able to check that AOA box is wonderful. I didn't have a single residency program director who did not comment on my AOA status. You are likely NOT going to be elected to AOA without good first and second year grades and thus I would never say that Honors in your first two year are not worth the effort.
It it not bad having a program director use terms like "Congratulations on a job well done and your AOA selection" Those "Honors" first 2 years were definitly worth it for me. For others, perhaps not.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2005
- Messages
- 422
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 4,591
- Age
- 42
- Location
- Philadelphia, PA
- Medical Student
I hate to call you out on this because you're such a nice guy, but you're probably deluding yourself. If you had spent that extra study time in the gym, you could have been in top shape right now. Who knows what you have given up in lifestyle, longevity, and romance by being so ambitious.
Whenever a person reflects upon his past decisions and concludes that he was consistently wise, I am suspicious of the egocentric bias.
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2003
- Messages
- 1,027
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 4,571
👍 👍 👍 👍 👍
Another great post by njbmd.
You can do any specialty out there without having AOA, and for the most part the majority of people who match into competitive residencies are not AOA. However, being a member can be a real gold stamp on your application. Look at the data from the NRMP Match Outcomes:
Of the applicants who were AOA:
Derm:
Matched-117
Unmatched-24
Ortho:
Matched- 180
Unmatched- 6
Now of course these same people most likely have high board scores and other contributing factors, but you can't deny that AOA status is helpful if it's offered at your school. So do your best in the first two years but don't be discrouraged if you don't honor everything or make AOA, because in the end you will be that much smarter for it.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,499
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 4,611
- Location
- Hollywood Star Lanes
- Attending Physician
I think this is the main issue on the minds of most of us. Most of us do try out best but unfortunately fall short of honors in our courses. We just want some assurance that it isn't the end of the world and that we can still get into a competitive residency even without AOA status. 😳
N
njbmd
I AM in top shape now. During the years that I was in medical school, I chose to make my studies my top priority. Earlier this year, I chose to make physical conditioning a top priority. So far, no regrets with either of these decisions.
The truth of the matter is that I have and will continue to have multiple chances to get into shape as long as I am alive. In contrast, I had and every medical student has "one shot" at doing well in medical school. To declare that "getting honors in the first two years of medical school is worthless" is definitely a mistake. Your performance in medical school (the first three years critically) will have a profound effect on your residency training and getting into a good residency. The quality of your residency will have a profound effect on your performance as a physician for the rest of your career and life.
There are no "short-cuts" to consistant practice at a high level. It is virtually impossible to slack the first two years of medical school and believe that you are going to make up the slack in third year and obtain the same results as someone who constantly achieved at a high level all the way through.
Bottom line: You have one shot at doing well in medical school. Even if you are not going to make AOA, to decide that good grades first and second year are worthless can make for some serious regrets when you start filling out that ERAS form. At that point, it's too late.
A good third year is great but having a strong performance first, second in addition is better. Residency Program directors KNOW that grades in third year are quite subjective hence the emphasis on USMLE Step I. Again, it is very unlikely that you are going to do well on USMLE Step I if you have not performed well in your pre-clinical sciences.
Call it egocentric but I will strongly encourage everyone to do the very best that they can with every aspect of medical school. In the end, it counts. You are paying thousands of dollars in tuition costs so grab the most for your money. Once you are out, you can't go back and re-do this. Always do the best that you can and consistantly do the best that you can. Put in the effort and don't try to delude yourself that your efforts are "worthless".
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2004
- Messages
- 271
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I think this is a good thing.. Honor societies are more than just academic honors.. It's all about being a well rounded individual.. I mean how much honor can you give to a kid who is anti-social, a gunner, and studies day and night all by himself? If you have 2 people.. one is top 15% and one is top 16% but the top 15% percent person.. nobody knows.. while the top 16% person has been helping the lower classmen and his own classmen achieve better grades by hosting his own review sessions.. then I think the class believes 16% is more honorable..
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 984
- Reaction score
- 10
- Points
- 4,581
- Attending Physician
I think you chose a poor example. In that specific case, sure. However, I don't think that's generally going to be the case. The "popular" crowd is not often the nicest. I know that in my school, there are a few students in the class above me that go to every bar tour and drink themselves silly, who also happen to be total *****'s to underclassmen. I'm sure that given the choice between them and someone more studious, their class would vote for them, but because of their beer bong skills and not because they were "helping lowerclassmen." If they were hosting review sessions, that's something the administration would be aware of, so why involve classmates?
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2004
- Messages
- 4,516
- Reaction score
- 2,844
- Points
- 5,246
- Attending Physician
maybe my school was an outlier, but, with 1 or 2 exceptions, having high enough academic honors to get into AOA precluded being well-rounded.
