Hopkins bayview vs Osler vs Penn (and others)

[MCVmedstudent]

So I am trying to decide between 3 programs and would like some outside opinions, especially if you are a resident at any of these programs.

I am deciding between Hopkins bayview, Penn and Hopkins Osler. I like bayview best at this time but would love some input.


I am also trying to decide on rank further down my list between MGH and Southwestern. I liked the feel at southwestern but I have some issues. For instance, they only got 3 years of accreditation as opposed to the full accreditation of 5 years and we really didnt get to talk to too many residents during the interview. Any input here?

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[Scaredshizzles]

So I am trying to decide between 3 programs and would like some outside opinions, especially if you are a resident at any of these programs.

I am deciding between Hopkins bayview, Penn and Hopkins Osler. I like bayview best at this time but would love some input.


I am also trying to decide on rank further down my list between MGH and Southwestern. I liked the feel at southwestern but I have some issues. For instance, they only got 3 years of accreditation as opposed to the full accreditation of 5 years and we really didnt get to talk to too many residents during the interview. Any input here?

You want some honest input...here you go. I think you'd be nuts to put Bayview ahead of any of the other 4 programs you mention...Unless perhaps you are a Hopkins med student. But I'll assume your username suggests otherwise.

 

[gold&black2005]

<in defense of my classmate, lol>

I don't think the OP is nuts at all to rank Hopkins-Bayview first, provided that MCVmedstudent can explain the rationale behind that decision.

Admittedly, when considering Osler, Penn, MGH and UTSW alongside Bayview assuming no information asymmetries, it's difficult to understand that rationale. Bayview, however, does sway a ton of people with its humanistic vibe and utterly ridiculous match list - and I mean utterly ridiculous.

Blindly, I would say that UTSW seems to be somewhat of an enigma. The training quality at Parkland cannot be denied, but as one poster on the boards has noted earlier, UTSW kids always seem to want out of the program - and all the ones I've met along the trail are inevitably never looking to stay in Dallas. (then again, neither would I - go redskins...)

Anyway, I'd suggest waiting for MCVmedstudent to give us some more info before we order a pysch consult.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

<in defense of my classmate, lol>

I don't think the OP is nuts at all to rank Hopkins-Bayview first, provided that MCVmedstudent can explain the rationale behind that decision.

Admittedly, when considering Osler, Penn, MGH and UTSW alongside Bayview assuming no information asymmetries, it's difficult to understand that rationale. Bayview, however, does sway a ton of people with its humanistic vibe and utterly ridiculous match list - and I mean utterly ridiculous.

Blindly, I would say that UTSW seems to be somewhat of an enigma. The training quality at Parkland cannot be denied, but as one poster on the boards has noted earlier, UTSW kids always seem to want out of the program - and all the ones I've met along the trail are inevitably never looking to stay in Dallas. (then again, neither would I - go redskins...)

Anyway, I'd suggest waiting for MCVmedstudent to give us some more info before we order a pysch consult.

Well I can't help but wonder how much that match list in influenced by the fact that a fair number of the residents graduated from Hopkins med school. (either those who couldn't quite make the Osler program, or those who could have but were just wanting a more cush residency experience because they know they can fall back on the Hopkins med school name when fellowships roll around. I wouldn't say it isn't a top level program, just not like the other 4 he mentioned, imo.

 

[MCVmedstudent]

You want some honest input...here you go. I think you'd be nuts to put Bayview ahead of any of the other 4 programs you mention...Unless perhaps you are a Hopkins med student. But I'll assume your username suggests otherwise.

Well I can't help but wonder how much that match list in influenced by the fact that a fair number of the residents graduated from Hopkins med school. (either those who couldn't quite make the Osler program, or those who could have but were just wanting a more cush residency experience because they know they can fall back on the Hopkins med school name when fellowships roll around. I wouldn't say it isn't a top level program, just not like the other 4 he mentioned, imo.

Dammit scaredshizzles, you're really causing me some doubt. I agree that the other 4 have a stronger name and that is what is causing me the doubt. I don't think bayview has a bad name by any means but the other 4 would be considered at the very top of IM.

Before you all call the psych consult, let me break it down for you by program:

First, MGH is no doubt a phenomenal program but I didnt feel I clicked with the residents or the program overall which is why I will not be ranking it as highly as penn, JHH osler and JH bayview. Furthermore, living in boston would be harder than the other cities. The cost of living is like 40-100% higher than the other cities. While I admit that this shouldn't be the main concern, it just adds to the overall feeling I had about the program.

My issues with southwestern were that it is far away from my family, that it is in texas and that I found it strange that, unlike every single other program, we weren't really exposed to that many residents. On top of that, the 3 year accreditation vs 5 year makes me wonder. They just had their site visit from the ACGME and that adds another layer of the unknown. I liked the residents I met, and the clinical training seems top notch. The fact that the training seems so strong makes me want to rank it even higher.

Also in the mix is BIDMC. I liked the program and the residents seemed very down to earth. I loved the emphasis on teaching and on improving quality. This seems like the only program I went to that really was focused on improving patient outcomes through analyzing the data. I liked that. It seems to carry with it good weight but the fellowship match list was good but not great.

Now for my top 3- penn, JHH osler and bayview. At all three I felt like I clicked with the program and the residents.

Penn has both the reputation for excellence and "support." I liked phily and I liked the structure of the program and the program director seems excellent. The match list is solid. I clicked with the residents.

Osler- what can you say about what many would consider the best training program in the country and maybe even the world? One thing I was very surprised about was how down to earth the residents and the program director seemed. I did not get the feeling that JHH was elitist at all which seemed contrary to everything I had heard. The program, as you would expect, seemed very focused on clinical training which is first and foremost what I am looking for. The hospital can only be describes as overwhelmingly impressive.

Bayview- While I was unsure initially about bayview, upon going there I was very impressed with their clinical training. On top of that, the program really feels like a family with a distinct interest in each one of their residents. Unlike many other "affiliated" programs, I did not get the impression it was a second class program. Their clinical training is obviously rigorous (3-4 ICU months intern year) and they are part of the Johns Hopkins Department of Medicine. 40% of hopkins' IM faculty work out of bayview, there are 2 NIH research organizations there and you can do electives at JHH. Their fellowship match list is top notch (seemingly better than many other more elite programs). I even asked one of my interviewer at Osler when bayview came up in conversation and he had nothing but accolades for their sister program. The program director was down to earth and has an energy about her that makes me want to be part of her program. She is also a graduate of MCV's internal medicine residency.

Now in the end I am really between 2 programs: JH osler and JH bayview. Funny enough, I may be the only person in the world who likes baltimore. It is a very tough decision between 2 very different programs. I have already gone to JH bayview's second look and will be going to Osler's later on. As it stands now the top of my match list looks like this:

1,2) Hopkins Bayview or osler
3) Penn
4.5) BIDMC or Southwestern
5.6) Southwestern/MGH
other programs

 

[purkinje284]

Just so you know that you are not crazy, I felt the same way about Bayview when compared to every other place I've interviewed at. I too plan on ranking them #1 and I don't foresee myself regretting that decision anytime soon. Really awesome program.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Just so you know that you are not crazy, I felt the same way about Bayview when compared to every other place I've interviewed at. I too plan on ranking them #1 and I don't foresee myself regretting that decision anytime soon. Really awesome program.

They've only had 11 cards matches overt he last 8 years (1.4 per year), and and 6 GI matches over those 8 years (0.75 per year)....12 heme/onc matches over 8 years...(1.5 per year)....


I know it is a small program, but don't over correct for that fact....Extrapolate out a program of 14-15 residents by multiplying it by 3x...to get the usual 42-45....If a program of that size only matched 10-12 people total in any given year to the three big subspecialties, you would be concerned, no??? Because that is what the numbers extrapolate out to...Yes, they mainly happen to be at the Hopkins Osler fellowship programs...But that just means they keep a quota for about 1 Bayview resident each year.




You people are nuts, unless you're pretty sure you want to go into GIM or one of the less competitive fellowships...You're not necessarily nuts for thinking Bayview is a good program, just nuts for thinking it will be just as good as Hopkins-Osler or UPenn.

 

[ResidentMD]

They've only had 11 cards matches overt he last 8 years (1.4 per year), and and 6 GI matches over those 8 years (0.75 per year)....12 heme/onc matches over 8 years...(1.5 per year)....


I know it is a small program, but don't over correct for that fact....Extrapolate out a program of 14-15 residents by multiplying it by 3x...to get the usual 42-45....If a program of that size only matched 10-12 people total in any given year to the three big subspecialties, you would be concerned, no??? Because that is what the numbers extrapolate out to...Yes, they mainly happen to be at the Hopkins Osler fellowship programs...But that just means they keep a quota for about 1 Bayview resident each year.




You people are nuts, unless you're pretty sure you want to go into GIM or one of the less competitive fellowships...You're not necessarily nuts for thinking Bayview is a good program, just nuts for thinking it will be just as good as Hopkins-Osler or UPenn.

Could it be a sample bias where people who go to Bayview may not want to go for GI/Cards fellowships as compared to those who go to the other top programs? Could it be that just 1 or 2 residents out of a batch of 14-15 WANT to go into GI/Cards? Because anyway the candidates that Bayview invites, are good enough to get into some other top 20 programs in the country (like the OP), and therefore, when they want a high intensity subspecialty like Cards, CHOOSE to go into high-intensity programs?

I dont know the answers to these questions, but I am just posing these because sometimes, when you evaluate a program by how many GI/Cards they match into, this may be an error in an applicant's evaluation.

 

[purkinje284]

They've only had 11 cards matches overt he last 8 years (1.4 per year), and and 6 GI matches over those 8 years (0.75 per year)....12 heme/onc matches over 8 years...(1.5 per year)....


I know it is a small program, but don't over correct for that fact....Extrapolate out a program of 14-15 residents by multiplying it by 3x...to get the usual 42-45....If a program of that size only matched 10-12 people total in any given year to the three big subspecialties, you would be concerned, no??? Because that is what the numbers extrapolate out to...Yes, they mainly happen to be at the Hopkins Osler fellowship programs...But that just means they keep a quota for about 1 Bayview resident each year.




You people are nuts, unless you're pretty sure you want to go into GIM or one of the less competitive fellowships...You're not necessarily nuts for thinking Bayview is a good program, just nuts for thinking it will be just as good as Hopkins-Osler or UPenn.

I believe our definition of "good" simply differs. I won't deny that Bayview is not an Osler or UPenn (certainly in the world of perceived prestige and notoriety), however, the differences between those larger programs and Bayview are some of the main reasons I really want to go there.

The program, due to it's small size, really allows for many unique opportunities that most other larger residency programs can not provide. The program director, associates, chair and associate chair all knew and interacted with each resident in their program and knew them on a personal level. The Aliki service and ability to do home visits were both opportunities that were rare or nonexistent at other places. Additionally, having the opportunity to partake in research with both Osler and Bayview faculty and having the ability to do rotations at Osler really makes this program quite unique (small program feel yet exposure to some of the most influential people in their fields). It also did not hurt that I got along great with the house staff and faculty.

I certainly do not believe that Bayview is a program for everyone, but it is my number one for the many things it provides that other places do not. They may very well not send as many people into cardiology, gi or heme/onc as other programs, however, it appears that in regards to all fellowship matching, they have had only 2 people not match in gi over the past 3-4 years (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=50957&highlight=bayview). I really think Bayview has quite a bit to offer but the bottom line is, as you said, it is not an Osler or UPenn. It's its own entity.

 

[Scaredshizzles]

Could it be a sample bias where people who go to Bayview may not want to go for GI/Cards fellowships as compared to those who go to the other top programs? Could it be that just 1 or 2 residents out of a batch of 14-15 WANT to go into GI/Cards? Because anyway the candidates that Bayview invites, are good enough to get into some other top 20 programs in the country (like the OP), and therefore, when they want a high intensity subspecialty like Cards, CHOOSE to go into high-intensity programs?

I dont know the answers to these questions, but I am just posing these because sometimes, when you evaluate a program by how many GI/Cards they match into, this may be an error in an applicant's evaluation.

I agree that selection bias is always a possibility, but I always refer back to the football coach Bill Parcell's quote that a "team's record is what it is" to paraphrase...By trying to guess at what sort of selection biases might be there, you just further worsen the ability to objectively analyze. The bottom line is you just don't know....

And you can't rely on what the residents tell you also...It is kind of like saying everyone who wanted to go into dermatology at my school got in, while 5 of 17 people trying for derm from Harvard weren't able to match...Well only the super qualified at my school even remotely considered derm, whereas pretty much everyone at Harvard thinks they can get into derm... On top of that, the Harvard students were trying to match into the top derm programs in the country, while students at my school will take anything they can get in derm...Same sort of stuff goes on with residents trying to match into fellowships. If they figure out early on that they won't be competitive for the kind of fellowship they want, they are likely to choose a different career path pretty early on...and so that second choice essentially will become their first choice when they talk about it with you.

 

[purkinje284]

I agree that selection bias is always a possibility, but I always refer back to the football coach Bill Parcell's quote that a "team's record is what it is" to paraphrase...By trying to guess at what sort of selection biases might be there, you just further worsen the ability to objectively analyze. The bottom line is you just don't know....

And you can't rely on what the residents tell you also...It is kind of like saying everyone who wanted to go into dermatology at my school got in, while 5 of 17 people trying for derm from Harvard weren't able to match...Well only the super qualified at my school even remotely considered derm, whereas pretty much everyone at Harvard thinks they can get into derm... On top of that, the Harvard students were trying to match into the top derm programs in the country, while students at my school will take anything they can get in derm...Same sort of stuff goes on with residents trying to match into fellowships. If they figure out early on that they won't be competitive for the kind of fellowship they want, they are likely to choose a different career path pretty early on...and so that second choice essentially will become their first choice when they talk about it with you.

Your assumptions could certainly be correct. I do believe there is some selection bias (the primary care faculty at Bayview are noted for writing the major texts for ambulatory care) and they have a very strong GIM track. It could also be true that they self select for those who pursue more competitive specialties early on and therefore skew nonmatched data at a later point in time. However, my general impression from interviewing there seemed to be otherwise. Unfortunately there is little I can provide other than current resident experiences, the fellowship match list and my personal impressions of the program. I have little fear, however, that if I do have the opportunity to train at Hopkins Bayview that I will have all doors open to me when pursuing a fellowship (given the research opportunities, and clinical rotation opportunities at both hospitals). I believe it is important to keep in mind, however, that there is more than fellowship match list data that goes into the selection of ones choice of residency program.

 

[digoybugoy]

From what I heard during the interview is that Osler does not have a primary care track hence people wanting to do primary care would be funneled to bayview. The people I interviewed with certainly were not weak. In fact several of them I heard also interviewed at Osler. I felt I was the weakest of all the people granted interviews when I came. Bayview's comparatively lighter schedule and opportunities to do rotations at Osler could be thought of as an advantage as well. Just think of the research projects one can get done.

 

[staup]

1. The JHU primary care program is at Bayview, so yes many want to do primary care/GIM stuff. In fact, of the 15-16 residents, half are primary care/GIM which does not preclude them from applying to cards but traditionally most do not.

2. The idea that "they come from JHU Med School" and rely on that is a complete exaggeration, at the most there are 3-4 residents/yr from JHU Med School. Most years less than that.

3. Honestly, honestly, I am a third year resident and know of the residents from the years before I arrived and I am only aware of 2 residents applying for any fellowship in the last 5 years who did not match, both going for GI. Now, Bayview has a smaller number of residents applying for fellowship because of the residency size, but HONESTLY, it is only 2. That being said there have been many of GI matches into various places.

4. It is definitely a family atmosphere.

5. My honest opinion: Bayview is an amazing residency program, a program where you will be trained to become a great doctor and have the chance to land an amazing fellowship/job. However, it is small and young (started in the 80s) and its reputation can suffer because people may not know what it is or label it as a "community" program with the bias accompanying that. I completely understand people who are scared of that and agree with them. It does not have the ultimate prestige of the Osler program because of it's lack of history alone.

 

[Moonglow]

I completed my internship (2004-2005) and residency (2005-2007) on the JHH Osler Medical Service. I agree with everything stated by staup, except the following:

It does not have the ultimate prestige of the Osler program because of it's lack of history alone.

Dr. Hellmann has done a great job at Bayview (a former Osler PD himself), and all of us love Colleen Christmas to death. But, JHH hospital is in its own world and Bayview's IM program is not comparable to Osler, nor should it be.

 

[staup]

Spoken like a true Osler Alumni! My point in using the word 'history' is that the program is still young, and in 20 years if it is still producing high quality graduates and fellowship spots we might be not having this conversation. There is no doubt you can go to Bayview, become a great doctor, and land a great fellowship spot. And that is what you should do if that is where you feel the most comfortable. However, there is no doubt JHH is a bigger place and the Osler program is more prestigious and more competitive. If that means a lot to you, you should go there and I wouldn't blame you. It does mean something.

 

[Mental Gymnast]

Dammit scaredshizzles, you're really causing me some doubt. I agree that the other 4 have a stronger name and that is what is causing me the doubt. I don't think bayview has a bad name by any means but the other 4 would be considered at the very top of IM.

Before you all call the psych consult, let me break it down for you by program:

First, MGH is no doubt a phenomenal program but I didnt feel I clicked with the residents or the program overall which is why I will not be ranking it as highly as penn, JHH osler and JH bayview. Furthermore, living in boston would be harder than the other cities. The cost of living is like 40-100% higher than the other cities. While I admit that this shouldn't be the main concern, it just adds to the overall feeling I had about the program.

My issues with southwestern were that it is far away from my family, that it is in texas and that I found it strange that, unlike every single other program, we weren't really exposed to that many residents. On top of that, the 3 year accreditation vs 5 year makes me wonder. They just had their site visit from the ACGME and that adds another layer of the unknown. I liked the residents I met, and the clinical training seems top notch. The fact that the training seems so strong makes me want to rank it even higher.

Also in the mix is BIDMC. I liked the program and the residents seemed very down to earth. I loved the emphasis on teaching and on improving quality. This seems like the only program I went to that really was focused on improving patient outcomes through analyzing the data. I liked that. It seems to carry with it good weight but the fellowship match list was good but not great.

Now for my top 3- penn, JHH osler and bayview. At all three I felt like I clicked with the program and the residents.

Penn has both the reputation for excellence and "support." I liked phily and I liked the structure of the program and the program director seems excellent. The match list is solid. I clicked with the residents.

Osler- what can you say about what many would consider the best training program in the country and maybe even the world? One thing I was very surprised about was how down to earth the residents and the program director seemed. I did not get the feeling that JHH was elitist at all which seemed contrary to everything I had heard. The program, as you would expect, seemed very focused on clinical training which is first and foremost what I am looking for. The hospital can only be describes as overwhelmingly impressive.

Bayview- While I was unsure initially about bayview, upon going there I was very impressed with their clinical training. On top of that, the program really feels like a family with a distinct interest in each one of their residents. Unlike many other "affiliated" programs, I did not get the impression it was a second class program. Their clinical training is obviously rigorous (3-4 ICU months intern year) and they are part of the Johns Hopkins Department of Medicine. 40% of hopkins' IM faculty work out of bayview, there are 2 NIH research organizations there and you can do electives at JHH. Their fellowship match list is top notch (seemingly better than many other more elite programs). I even asked one of my interviewer at Osler when bayview came up in conversation and he had nothing but accolades for their sister program. The program director was down to earth and has an energy about her that makes me want to be part of her program. She is also a graduate of MCV's internal medicine residency.

Now in the end I am really between 2 programs: JH osler and JH bayview. Funny enough, I may be the only person in the world who likes baltimore. It is a very tough decision between 2 very different programs. I have already gone to JH bayview's second look and will be going to Osler's later on. As it stands now the top of my match list looks like this:

1,2) Hopkins Bayview or osler
3) Penn
4.5) BIDMC or Southwestern
5.6) Southwestern/MGH
other programs

MCVmedstudent,

Your tough decision between the osler and bayview programs is understandable for many of the reasons already discussed. Last year or the year before, apparently more hopkins students ranked bayview higher than the osler program for some of the very same reasons you mentioned, and I think you just have to find your fit based on your priorities, interests.

What I don't understand, though, is your decision to rank MGH lower than the BI?! If you liked hopkins, the harvard program that is probably most similar to hopkins is MGH. It's a huge 1000 bed hospital, sees more diverse patient population than BI, certainly higher volume, top notch fellowship placement in every specialty, etc, etc. I would guess it is not uncommon for Hopkins to lose students to MGH in the match every year and vice versa, but not MGH losing students to BIDMC. As for the cost of living issue (having lived in both Boston and Baltimore briefly), I think it is not as big of an issue as you imagine. Resident salaries at the Harvard programs are a good 5-6K higher than Baltimore for this reason. In fact, if you recall at your interview day at the Osler program, they showed a slide at the end indicating what your resident salary would have to be to have the same standard of living as the current hopkins pay in baltimore. If I recall correctly, New York needed about 86K salary, San Francisco ~68K, and Boston needed 51K (which is lower than any resident salary at MGH). Even in the event that this is wildly inaccurate, I don't know that I would make such a large career decision based on the 5K salary difference of my three years of residency.

So I don't know. Based on your logic, I think 1 and 2 on your list are great places. But as for the rest of your list, I would reconsider the order.

Not sure what others think...

 

[stankem]

I completed my internship (2004-2005) and residency (2005-2007) on the JHH Osler Medical Service. I agree with everything stated by staup, except the following:



Dr. Hellmann has done a great job at Bayview (a former Osler PD himself), and all of us love Colleen Christmas to death. But, JHH hospital is in its own world and Bayview's IM program is not comparable to Osler, nor should it be.

pics plz

 

[MCVmedstudent]

So I just wanted to update everyone. I went on a second look to both Bayview and Osler. I still love Bayview but really like the atmosphere and the residents at Osler. So, I have decided to put Osler first. The training there is unmatched, the program director is pretty cool and I like the structure. In the last couple weeks I have been leaning toward Osler and I recently went on a second look and it confirmed it.

Mental Gymnast- in regards to BI vs MGH- it was probably my day but the residents at MGH really rubbed me the wrong way. So for me BI is higher than MGH. I'm hoping not to go that far down my list though.