How bad is reapplying after being accepted?

[MrRizzler]

Hi all,

I am currently a second year medical student but I have a pre-med brother that I have been advising throughout his application process. He had 5 II, 2 A and 1 W this cycle. He interviewed at a T5 school (Harvard) but ended up getting rejected, and I guess he decided that he would rather reapply to Harvard than go to any of the state schools he was accepted to. Of course, I had a discussion with him regarding the fact that he is taking a big chance by rejecting his only acceptances and he may not get any acceptances next year or the year after that. He may never be a doctor if he decides to reapply, but he still went through with withdrawing his acceptances anyway against my advice. After he did that, I started searching and reading forum posts about how there is a stigma surrounding students that got accepted and reapplied, but I have never been in this situation so I was just wondering what kinds of questions the interviewers ask and what would be the best response to them in this situation. My questions for you guys are
1) How bad is it exactly to reapply after being accepted? How much does it weaken your application?
2) What do the interviewers ask about with regards to previous acceptances?
3) What is the best response to the interviewers about why he didn't attend medical school last cycle?
4) Do DO schools know you rejected an MD acceptance and is it worth also applying to them next cycle?

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[LizzyM]

What is his plan if another med school offer never materializes? Perhaps he is too full of himself to succeed in medical school and his hubris is a feature, not a bug, in the overall scheme of things.

Someone applying during a gap year, or in a second gap year when their application was good enough to get 5 interviews and 2 offers in an earlier cycle is going to raise some eyebrows. Why didn't he get in previously? or if he got in, why didn't he go? I hate to say that he's damaged goods now and will be lucky to get in anywhere. I'm not sure DO is the right path given that the DOs may yield protect and not interview someone they expect will jilt them for an MD offer.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

OP: Welcome to the forums. (for humor) May I suggest a different method of communication... if asked why he didn't attend medical school when he got an offer (or multiples)?

I don't want to advise someone blindly. You're the sibling so you know full well what your brother's like and what his motivation is. We don't know where else he interviewed or what his results were.

It is implied he has many other offers on the table. He better get to CYMS and pick a school among his many acceptances. By turning them down, he may effectively blacklist himself from applying to programs where he got offers.

It's like the adage of "the first thing you do when you're in a hole is to stop digging."

If his metrics are such that he got an interview at Harvard and offers at many other schools, the DO schools may wonder if your brother is "damaged goods." Maybe he's damaged goods now for turning down the sure thing, or maybe he's scared of the debt and never realizing his dream of world and time travel...

A little more seriously: if he feels he's Harvard material and not stoop to going to a state medical school, what makes us think he'd be happy going to a DO program?

 

[chilly_md]

I don't know if he applied to where you are a student at, but it appears he only is set on going to Harvard or a similar school. It would be great if he realized his mistake and gets off the WL if he did not already decline that school as well. Otherwise, there is not much you can do to if he willingly ignored your advice.

I do not see him getting interviewed again at those state schools that already offered him, and I do not see why he would think he'd get more interest as a reapplicant at only top programs.

 

[MrRizzler]

I don't know if he applied to where you are a student at, but it appears he only is set on going to Harvard or a similar school. It would be great if he realized his mistake and gets off the WL if he did not already decline that school as well. Otherwise, there is not much you can do to if he willingly ignored your advice.

I do not see him getting interviewed again at those state schools that already offered him, and I do not see why he would think he'd get more interest as a reapplicant at only top programs.

I am a student at one of the state schools he got accepted to but later ended up declining the acceptance. To be honest, I have no idea why he even interviewed at my school if he wasn't interested in going there. I gave him a personalized tour and did my best to help him with his interview but he still decided he'd rather not go there after he got accepted. The school he got waitlisted at is another Ivy League school, I'm not sure what his chances are of getting off that waitlist but I hope he does. Everything I read about reapplying after having an MD acceptance makes me think this next cycle will be near impossible for him to get another acceptance. As for why he thinks he's get more interest as a reapplicant, he believes that his application will be stronger next year because he will have more clinical experience during his gap year and he is planning to apply earlier this time. He believes that the reason he wasn't accepted to as many schools as he wanted is because he applied late (around October) instead of around June, which is something he hopes to rectify with this next cycle. I'm not entirely sure if applying earlier and with more clinical experience will offset the stigma associated that comes with being seen as "damaged goods" but I do hope he is able to see success with this next cycle.

 

[chilly_md]

I am a student at one of the state schools he got accepted to but later ended up declining the acceptance. To be honest, I have no idea why he even interviewed at my school if he wasn't interested in going there. I gave him a personalized tour and did my best to help him with his interview but he still decided he'd rather not go there after he got accepted. The school he got waitlisted at is another Ivy League school, I'm not sure what his chances are of getting off that waitlist but I hope he does. Everything I read about reapplying after having an MD acceptance makes me think this next cycle will be near impossible for him to get another acceptance. As for why he thinks he's get more interest as a reapplicant, he believes that his application will be stronger next year because he will have more clinical experience during his gap year and he is planning to apply earlier this time. He believes that the reason he wasn't accepted to as many schools as he wanted is because he applied late (around October) instead of around June, which is something he hopes to rectify with this next cycle. I'm not entirely sure if applying earlier and with more clinical experience will offset the stigma associated that comes with being seen as "damaged goods" but I do hope he is able to see success with this next cycle.

There's a decent chance if the other Ivy is Brown or Dartmouth, but Yale, Cornell, Penn and Columbia can be very competitive. Low clinical experience is usually bad for an application, but it sounds like he had enough if he interviewed at multiple places and received multiple acceptances. >250 hrs with high stats and appropriate service and research is plenty. There is a point of diminishing returns as well with clinical experience (ie not a big difference past 1000 hrs if he already had been working as an EMT, scribe or MA for instance).

I can see him getting an acceptance next year if there were schools like Rochester, UVA, Iowa etc that he did not apply to before and their secondary does not ask about prior acceptances/applications. There is a chance they may not think too much if he is younger, his MCAT and activities are all still pretty recent etc. But I don't think he'd necessarily be interested in them. You're a good sibling to keep an eye out for him still. I don't know how your dynamic is, but I'd have been very happy to attend school with my brother showing me the ropes if I was in his shoes.

 

[Goro]

Does your brother really want to be a doctor? In all seriousness, it seems like he is so sabotaging.

If he actually has a "Harvard or bust" mindset, that's not healthy.

 

[CBass2288]

I have nothing useful to add, but wanted to say how painful it is to read something like this. As someone who literally would have gone to wherever accepted him (as I feel like 75% or more applicants would), it's mind boggling to me that someone would turn down multiple state MDs and essentially blacklist themselves to reapply to the most competitive school in the country. Some pre-meds are truly insane. What it sounds like is ego/prestige over the genuine "calling" to be a doctor. Unfortunate actions for someone intelligent enough to get interviews at Harvard and Ivy's to make this kind of decision. Regardless, you seem like an awesome sibling and I would have jumped at the chance to go to medical school with my sibling if I was in that situation.

 

[mangopr]

This is actually an insane mentality. I truly hope the best for him, but it seems like he wants the fame and the prestige of being from a top school rather than genuinely wanting to be a physician.

 

[MrRizzler]

I have nothing useful to add, but wanted to say how painful it is to read something like this. As someone who literally would have gone to wherever accepted him (as I feel like 75% or more applicants would), it's mind boggling to me that someone would turn down multiple state MDs and essentially blacklist themselves to reapply to the most competitive school in the country. Some pre-meds are truly insane. What it sounds like is ego/prestige over the genuine "calling" to be a doctor. Unfortunate actions for someone intelligent enough to get interviews at Harvard and Ivy's to make this kind of decision. Regardless, you seem like an awesome sibling and I would have jumped at the chance to go to medical school with my sibling if I was in that situation.

Yeah... I get what you're saying. I felt the same way when I was applying. I would've been happy going ANYWHERE for my MD. I only got accepted to one school during my application cycle and I was so happy about it.

 

[Starr_key]

Hi all,

I am currently a second year medical student but I have a pre-med brother that I have been advising throughout his application process. He had 5 II, 2 A and 1 W this cycle. He interviewed at a T5 school (Harvard) but ended up getting rejected, and I guess he decided that he would rather reapply to Harvard than go to any of the state schools he was accepted to. Of course, I had a discussion with him regarding the fact that he is taking a big chance by rejecting his only acceptances and he may not get any acceptances next year or the year after that. He may never be a doctor if he decides to reapply, but he still went through with withdrawing his acceptances anyway against my advice. After he did that, I started searching and reading forum posts about how there is a stigma surrounding students that got accepted and reapplied, but I have never been in this situation so I was just wondering what kinds of questions the interviewers ask and what would be the best response to them in this situation. My questions for you guys are
1) How bad is it exactly to reapply after being accepted? How much does it weaken your application?
2) What do the interviewers ask about with regards to previous acceptances?
3) What is the best response to the interviewers about why he didn't attend medical school last cycle?
4) Do DO schools know you rejected an MD acceptance and is it worth also applying to them next cycle?

Does Harvard give feedback for students? Because if they liked him enough to interview him, then something must have come up with the interview for them to reject him.

Also, why didn't he just apply to Harvard if that's where he wanted to go? What was the point of applying to the other schools?

 

[LunaOri]

He would have been better off attending the school to which he was accepted, and aiming for a Harvard residency match. I sure hope it won’t end up damaging your relationship with your brother if you end up being a physician and he doesn’t.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

In advance, I'll say it for you, "Ok Boomer". When I see something this silly, I bemoan the fact that male college students are rarely given the opportunity these days to spend a summer or two working in a factory or roofing houses. Every college educated old goat I meet says that working in a factory or on a construction site was the best class he had during his college years. I guarantee that if this kid saw how working class people earned a living, he'd jump on his state school acceptance like a fumble in the last minute of the fourth quarter.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In advance, I'll say it for you, "Ok Boomer". When I see something this silly, I bemoan the fact that male college students are rarely given the opportunity these days to spend a summer or two working in a factory or roofing houses. Every college educated old goat I meet says that working in a factory or on a construction site was the best class he had during his college years. I guarantee that if this kid saw how working class people earned a living, he'd jump on his state school acceptance like a fumble in the last minute of the fourth quarter.

I never really understood why my campus newspaper classifieds solicited applications to work on a fishing boat in Alaska. But it is the same point for those who did it. For those who love Jack London stories...

Deadliest Catch

Discovery.com gives a behind-the-scenes look and insider information on the deadliest job on earth: crab fishing off the Alaskan coast on the icy Bering Sea.

www.discovery.com

 

[LizzyM]

Does Harvard give feedback for students? Because if they liked him enough to interview him, then something must have come up with the interview for them to reject him.

There may have been a very good reason that the school will never share with the applicant-- because it is just too sensitive. It is just hard to say, "you came across as an entitled, selfish, boorish, overly-confident, immature individual lacking in empathy or common sense."

 

[Chipmunk435]

If I remember correctly, Harvard’s secondary application clearly states that if you have been accepted elsewhere and declined for any reason they will not even review your application… so Harvard is out of the question anyways

 

[Brooklyn-doc97]

Hi all,

I am currently a second year medical student but I have a pre-med brother that I have been advising throughout his application process. He had 5 II, 2 A and 1 W this cycle. He interviewed at a T5 school (Harvard) but ended up getting rejected, and I guess he decided that he would rather reapply to Harvard than go to any of the state schools he was accepted to. Of course, I had a discussion with him regarding the fact that he is taking a big chance by rejecting his only acceptances and he may not get any acceptances next year or the year after that. He may never be a doctor if he decides to reapply, but he still went through with withdrawing his acceptances anyway against my advice. After he did that, I started searching and reading forum posts about how there is a stigma surrounding students that got accepted and reapplied, but I have never been in this situation so I was just wondering what kinds of questions the interviewers ask and what would be the best response to them in this situation. My questions for you guys are
1) How bad is it exactly to reapply after being accepted? How much does it weaken your application?
2) What do the interviewers ask about with regards to previous acceptances?
3) What is the best response to the interviewers about why he didn't attend medical school last cycle?
4) Do DO schools know you rejected an MD acceptance and is it worth also applying to them next cycle?

It is an honor to get accepted anywhere, but to try and zero in on Harvard is a very unrealistic demand to put upon yourself. I am not going to lie, as someone who is desperate for anyone to tell me yes, this situation reminds of the quote "Never look a gift horse in the mouth". I think that your brother really needed to have accepted one of the offers and count his blessings.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I usually say this to parents, however I'll say it here--I recommend your brother come and post on SDN if they want our advice.

While this is a delightful opportunity to dogpile on someone who seemingly made a bad decision, there seems to be little point if the actual subject of this discussion isn't interested in feedback.

 

[pigsinacloth]

I mean this in the nicest way possible. This was good for him and for future patients. If he does not understand the gravity of the situation he was not ready to start medical school and quite frankly I don't think he would ever be ready. He interviewed at harvard so he is clearly smart. Have him go do some healthcare startup company, because pt care is never going to be in his hands directly nor shood it be. Realisticly given the decision he made it's probably where he would have ended up anyway, just 4 years sooner and with less debt.

 

[polymerization]

It's really easy to judge someone that isn't in the room. Any other year, I would be piling on in solidarity—but this year, I'm applying with a borderline application and a lifetime of struggle—and I think I have come to understand how prestige can be a proxy for institutional compensation in the face of significant adversity (usually in the form of a protracted, hypercompetitive admissions landscape that necessitates this kind of forum).

In an industry that shills meritocracy but that statistically reflects a caste system, it's reasonable to hope that distance traveled might be proportional to outcome...at least that's what deans will go red in the face telling applicants. Unfortunately, life isn't equal or fair neither in theory nor practice; and neither is medical school admissions. It's a hard pill to swallow.

In general, the point is moot: he declined acceptances on his own accord and took an astronomical risk, at his own astronomical cost. Trying to persuade him otherwise a posteriori is a futile exercise; and to memorialize your judgment for him in public forum is just unkind. A secondhand retelling of an anecdote deserves this degree of sanctimony? Come on.

Maybe he does succeed, to everyone's shock and surprise. Surely then, everyone will mutter amongst themselves about how this was all highly unusual, a statistical rarity, an edge case and conveniently forget how half the forum came down on a kid who interviewed at HMS and had stars in his eyes. Some of us dream about being famous popstars in childhood; others dream of academia and accolades. To each their own; time will tell if he ends up becoming the once-in-a-million applicant he has risked his entire future to persuade committees he can be.

Personally, I wish him well, and request that you keep us posted. I will be waiting. With popcorn.

 

[LizzyM]

I would encourage the "brother" to make an account and post himself but I'm also aware that many posters claim to be asking for a friend when they are, in fact, the friend.

 

[CBass2288]

While this is a delightful opportunity to dogpile on someone who seemingly made a bad decision, there seems to be little point if the actual subject of this discussion isn't interested in feedback.

I agree with this.

A secondhand retelling of an anecdote deserves this degree of sanctimony? Come on.

Wouldn't this^ be exactly the same (shock (in a negative way) at the situation)

Surely then, everyone will mutter amongst themselves about how this was all highly unusual, a statistical rarity, an edge case.

as this?^ Just opposite ends? (shock (in a positive way) at the situation)


At the end of the day, most of us (I WOULD HOPE) want what's best for patients. Right? Is someone who cares more about his own prestige to the extent that he's willing and okay with likely ruining his future in this career gonna be the person that puts patients first?
This is spot on:

I mean this in the nicest way possible. This was good for him and for future patients. If he does not understand the gravity of the situation he was not ready to start medical school and quite frankly I don't think he would ever be ready. He interviewed at harvard so he is clearly smart. Have him go do some healthcare startup company, because pt care is never going to be in his hands directly nor shood it be. Realisticly given the decision he made it's probably where he would have ended up anyway, just 4 years sooner and with less debt.

 

[polymerization]

I agree with this.

Wouldn't this^ be exactly the same (shock (in a negative way) at the situation)

as this?^ Just opposite ends? (shock (in a positive way) at the situation)


At the end of the day, most of us (I WOULD HOPE) want what's best for patients. Right? Is someone who cares more about his own prestige to the extent that he's willing and okay with likely ruining his future in this career gonna be the person that puts patients first?
This is spot on:

I understand your point, and it aligns with mine. What today is "ruining his future" could tomorrow be Apple Inc. The (many) documentaries on Steve Jobs point to his own exuberant, narcissism-adjacent self-confidence, even as he failed and disappointed those around him. By the time he passed, people called him aspirational, ambitious, and visionary. It really just depends on who you ask and when—there were times on the planet where it was indubitably not great to be Steve Jobs. I'm sure the discourse could have been very similar to this.

I remember when I was first here, more than 10 years ago, as a 17-year-old immigrant kid. This place was beyond intimidating, and I hung on every letter the professionals here would write. This is the crucible for professional identity that all pre-meds know, and so, assuming whoever is really behind this post is most likely in their very young adulthood, we should all be mindful that nearly everyone asking for advice here has no idea what it's like to be a professional or what a career means or can be. We're all just winging it.

So, knowing that, wouldn't it be easier (and more effective) to imagine a world where making this choice made sense, and meeting people where they are from there?

Surely, not every single patient you see comes to you with unending deference and strict conformity with your orders. Many will tell you that they don't want that vaccine/medication/surgery anyway, even if it costs them their life. Is the role of a doctor to shrug and say "well, ma'am, you snooze you lose;" or, do you take a beat and help them understand the stakes? Many times we have patients who see us that have already "done the thing" and irreparably altered their own prognosis. It is our job to advise them without judgment in those cases, too.

We're applying to medical school, but you'd think this is an application to be the next Pope. I hear there's an opening, actually.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

It's really easy to judge someone that isn't in the room. Any other year, I would be piling on in solidarity—but this year, I'm applying with a borderline application and a lifetime of struggle—and I think I have come to understand how prestige can be a proxy for institutional compensation in the face of significant adversity (usually in the form of a protracted, hypercompetitive admissions landscape that necessitates this kind of forum).

In an industry that shills meritocracy but that statistically reflects a caste system, it's reasonable to hope that distance traveled might be proportional to outcome...at least that's what deans will go red in the face telling applicants. Unfortunately, life isn't equal or fair neither in theory nor practice; and neither is medical school admissions. It's a hard pill to swallow.

In general, the point is moot: he declined acceptances on his own accord and took an astronomical risk, at his own astronomical cost. Trying to persuade him otherwise a posteriori is a futile exercise; and to memorialize your judgment for him in public forum is just unkind. A secondhand retelling of an anecdote deserves this degree of sanctimony? Come on.

Maybe he does succeed, to everyone's shock and surprise. Surely then, everyone will mutter amongst themselves about how this was all highly unusual, a statistical rarity, an edge case and conveniently forget how half the forum came down on a kid who interviewed at HMS and had stars in his eyes. Some of us dream about being famous popstars in childhood; others dream of academia and accolades. To each their own; time will tell if he ends up becoming the once-in-a-million applicant he has risked his entire future to persuade committees he can be.

Personally, I wish him well, and request that you keep us posted. I will be waiting. With popcorn.

Here's the story. The OP came on this board seeking advice. No one here knocked on his brother's front door to tell him he's a fool. The advice given to the OP, that his brother is making a tremendous error if he wants to be a physician, is sound. There is no need to speak in riddles about this issue.

When my kid started this process 15 years ago, I told her to swallow her pride. I also warned her that she would be treated wonderfully by some authority figures and horribly by others. That's the nature of this business. You have to roll with the punches.

 

[CBass2288]

I hear what you're saying Poly. But at the same time, what Obnoxious said is the blunt reality. All any of us can do is give the best advice we can. I am no professional on this topic nor do I claim to be. But there are verified professionals in here who give advice which aligns with how I feel about this specific scenario. Are there exceptions to the norm? Of course. But if we gave everyone advice that defied the norms (apply with a 489, you don't need clinical hours, only apply to 1 school, etc.), all of those people wouldn't be getting in. Just because it HAS been done before (all of those things), doesn't mean it will be done again or will work for 99.9% of people. In medicine, we advise on what we have evidence for. That's not to say that something without evidence can't work, but we wouldn't be doing our jobs by giving people false hope that something like eating some dirt will help your stomach pain while ignoring that fact that it can easily poison you. This is a forum for advice, and in this specific thread, advice on reapplying after an acceptance. Is there a world where that situation is the right choice? Maybe for a handful of individuals per cycle. For this specific scenario? Cmon. You explaining that there's a small chance? Sure. But if you want to play devil's advocate, feed into this guy's delusion, compare him to Steve Jobs, speak as if you can predict the future, and somehow compare turning down As to dealing with tough patients, you're no better than he is.

 

[polymerization]

Here's the story. The OP came on this board seeking advice. No one here knocked on his brother's front door to tell him he's a fool. The advice given to the OP, that his brother is making a tremendous error if he wants to be a physician, is sound. There is no need to speak in riddles about this issue.

When my kid started this process 15 years ago, I told her to swallow her pride. I also warned her that she would be treated wonderfully by some authority figures and horribly by others. That's the nature of this business. You have to roll with the punches.

I hear what you're saying Poly. But at the same time, what Obnoxious said is the blunt reality. All any of us can do is give the best advice we can. I am no professional on this topic nor do I claim to be. But there are verified professionals in here who give advice which aligns with how I feel about this specific scenario. Are there exceptions to the norm? Of course. But if we gave everyone advice that defied the norms (apply with a 489, you don't need clinical hours, only apply to 1 school, etc.), all of those people wouldn't be getting in. Just because it HAS been done before (all of those things), doesn't mean it will be done again or will work for 99.9% of people. In medicine, we advise on what we have evidence for. That's not to say that something without evidence can't work, but we wouldn't be doing our jobs by giving people false hope that something like eating some dirt will help your stomach pain while ignoring that fact that it can easily poison you. This is a forum for advice, and in this specific thread, advice on reapplying after an acceptance. Is there a world where that situation is the right choice? Maybe for a handful of individuals per cycle. For this specific scenario? Cmon. You explaining that there's a small chance? Sure. But if you want to play devil's advocate, feed into this guy's delusion, compare him to Steve Jobs, speak as if you can predict the future, and somehow compare turning down As to dealing with tough patients, you're no better than he is.

I'm aware; I read the thread. Notice that I didn't endorse or condone OP's (brother's) strategy. It was a Pascal's wager he makes knowing that the opportunities may not be there next year. I also did not point my commentary at any one member, only a blanket observation knowing what it's like to engage with this process with the knowledge that school choice obviously materially and significantly impacts your career trajectory.

This is the very odd proposal admissions makes to students. They say, "Don't apply to 70 schools!" "Never apply somewhere you wouldn't go!" "It's all about mission fit!" However, the reality of taking fit seriously feels more like Sylvia Plath's fig tree. We're all looking down the barrel of a loaded gun and finding multiplicities of possible futures; imagining ourselves as the particular "brand" of physician those schools train, geography, faculty access, special programs, and so on.

This student in particular actually secured an interview at HMS, which is enough objective proof to me that the OP was not just grasping at straws and hoping to make the best out of an already unideal situation—this student is clearly targeting Ivies in particular, for a particular reason. I find it very difficult to claim a posteriori that this individual, who, again, is not here to defend himself—somehow managed to be both a bumbling idiot and achieve a LizzyM score in the mid to high 70s at least, based on anecdotal data here (or Admit, CycleTrack, MDApps, etc.).

The reality is that Harvard has a clear reputation for being the "best" university, period. I won't make a statement on whether that reputation is necessarily deserved; or whether one can achieve Harvard-worthy credentials from a public school. There are many, many resources that discuss the soft white underbelly of privileged academic tracks (my favorites are The Privileged Poor, by Dr. Anthony Jack; Unequal Childhoods, by Dr. Annette Lareau; and Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs by Lauren Rivera). What these narratives clarify is the deeply rooted and clearly unjust methods of academic track selection in our country...and I think it's totally fair to reach for what you want, not just what others think is feasible or logical for you, based on...what, a paragraph?

Now, whether it is reasonable to forgo Harvard for a school you already have an acceptance to is a personal choice, but it isn't one that I cannot imagine defending. And that's why it is so confusing for me to read that this student is being framed in terms of character flaws.

Why? If the only acceptance they received was one of Goro's no-no schools, nobody would bat an eyelash, and encourage a reapplication. Admissions committees constantly say that there are just too many qualified students, and at some point, it's about statistical probability. Based on that logic, is reapplying for the purpose of mission fit actually as misguided as this thread would lead someone to believe? What if he was aiming for a less prestigious school? Why is chasing prestige considered in poor taste (apparently, exclusively for people for whom admission is already a steep uphill climb due to lack of insider resources)?

It may still very well have been an immeasurably stupid decision to have made. Still, I think there is room to have a frank discussion about the real stakes, for real people—what this means for someone in OP's position; what variables are relevant; what outcomes are likely.

None of that necessitates carte blanche ad hominem.

And for what it's worth, if it is true that setting aside your self-esteem is part and parcel to succeed in this industry—we should hope I am not admitted. Because I will not tolerate it. Nobody should. The idea that being abused or exploited is part of "paying one's dues" is notoriously toxic and untrue. Indeed, there are many, many students I have met who have their family name on a building and experience medical school the same way a child experiences space camp. Challenging intellectually to some degree, but ultimately facilitated by the invisible hands of many individuals who unfairly conspire to make the process cinch-free for them.

 

[CoolSocks]

I'm aware; I read the thread. Notice that I didn't endorse or condone OP's (brother's) strategy. It was a Pascal's wager he makes knowing that the opportunities may not be there next year. I also did not point my commentary at any one member, only a blanket observation knowing what it's like to engage with this process with the knowledge that school choice obviously materially and significantly impacts your career trajectory.

This is the very odd proposal admissions makes to students. They say, "Don't apply to 70 schools!" "Never apply somewhere you wouldn't go!" "It's all about mission fit!" However, the reality of taking fit seriously feels more like Sylvia Plath's fig tree. We're all looking down the barrel of a loaded gun and finding multiplicities of possible futures; imagining ourselves as the particular "brand" of physician those schools train, geography, faculty access, special programs, and so on.

This student in particular actually secured an interview at HMS, which is enough objective proof to me that the OP was not just grasping at straws and hoping to make the best out of an already unideal situation—this student is clearly targeting Ivies in particular, for a particular reason. I find it very difficult to claim a posteriori that this individual, who, again, is not here to defend himself—somehow managed to be both a bumbling idiot and achieve a LizzyM score in the mid to high 70s at least, based on anecdotal data here (or Admit, CycleTrack, MDApps, etc.).

The reality is that Harvard has a clear reputation for being the "best" university, period. I won't make a statement on whether that reputation is necessarily deserved; or whether one can achieve Harvard-worthy credentials from a public school. There are many, many resources that discuss the soft white underbelly of privileged academic tracks (my favorites are The Privileged Poor, by Dr. Anthony Jack; Unequal Childhoods, by Dr. Annette Lareau; and Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs by Lauren Rivera). What these narratives clarify is the deeply rooted and clearly unjust methods of academic track selection in our country...and I think it's totally fair to reach for what you want, not just what others think is feasible or logical for you, based on...what, a paragraph?

Now, whether it is reasonable to forgo Harvard for a school you already have an acceptance to is a personal choice, but it isn't one that I cannot imagine defending. And that's why it is so confusing for me to read that this student is being framed in terms of character flaws.

Why? If the only acceptance they received was one of Goro's no-no schools, nobody would bat an eyelash, and encourage a reapplication. Admissions committees constantly say that there are just too many qualified students, and at some point, it's about statistical probability. Based on that logic, is reapplying for the purpose of mission fit actually as misguided as this thread would lead someone to believe? What if he was aiming for a less prestigious school? Why is chasing prestige considered in poor taste (apparently, exclusively for people for whom admission is already a steep uphill climb due to lack of insider resources)?

It may still very well have been an immeasurably stupid decision to have made. Still, I think there is room to have a frank discussion about the real stakes, for real people—what this means for someone in OP's position; what variables are relevant; what outcomes are likely.

None of that necessitates carte blanche ad hominem.

And for what it's worth, if it is true that setting aside your self-esteem is part and parcel to succeed in this industry—we should hope I am not admitted. Because I will not tolerate it. Nobody should. The idea that being abused or exploited is part of "paying one's dues" is notoriously toxic and untrue. Indeed, there are many, many students I have met who have their family name on a building and experience medical school the same way a child experiences space camp. Challenging intellectually to some degree, but ultimately facilitated by the invisible hands of many individuals who unfairly conspire to make the process cinch-free for them.

I think you are overcomplicating things and have created a person that doesn't exist/isn't the topic of this post in order to create a debate. The situation is that OP's brother got into a medical he CHOSE to apply to, then decided he would rather reapply TO HARVARD than attend the school that once again he CHOSE to apply to (and its a state school his own sibling attends, so its probably a good school!). Also, prestige is NOT a mission of any medical school I know of, and its concerning that you think it could be one. If you want to chase prestige, go for it, but don't apply to schools you wouldn't attend and take an interview slot from someone who would be grateful for it.

Anecdotally, I know a good amount of people with high LMs who make poor choices, and you don't have to be a "bumbling idiot" to make a bad choice either.

There is also a HUGE difference between setting aside self-esteem and setting aside pride.

(edited for clarification)

 

[polymerization]

I think you are overcomplicating things and have created a person that doesn't exist/isn't the topic of this post in order to create a debate. The situation is that OP's brother got into a medical he CHOSE to apply to, then decided he would rather reapply TO HARVARD than attend the school that once again he CHOSE to apply to (and its a state school his own sibling attends, so its probably a good school!). Also, prestige is NOT a mission of any medical school I know of, and its concerning that you think it could be one. If you want to chase prestige, go for it, but don't apply to schools you wouldn't attend and take an interview slot from someone who would be grateful for it.

Anecdotally, I know a good amount of people with high LMs who make poor choices, and you don't have to be a "bumbling idiot" to make a bad choice either.

There is also a HUGE difference between setting aside self-esteem and setting aside pride.

(edited for clarification)

Actually, instead of just writing someone off blindly, I'm considering what other factors might have inspired what seems to be a highly unusual approach...because the point of all of us being here is to learn something new, right?

We can't approach people with things like cultural awareness; cultural humility; empathy and compassion; ethical responsibility to self and others; interpersonal skills; etc if we're wasting a perfectly good topic on how seemingly stupid someone's decision was. Don't you think this is a good place to put the pitchfork down and hold the mirror to yourself? I thought adcoms were supposed to be evaluating these qualities. Unless...it's all BS? Euphemisms written to legitimize accepting only those who otherwise would have been able to force their way through anyway? Don't we see this throughout every step of the admissions process, from the protracted academic path in comparison to other countries, to the expectation of extended free labor "so they know you really want it?" I did all the things, and apparently doing all the things is wrong, too.

At the end of the day, we all have choices. This person made theirs. And they weren't seeking your permission, at all—so I find the brutality inappropriate.

Look, I'm here too. I'm stepping into medicine because I believe its expressed values align with mine and present a future that I actually want to live in. Yes, there are realities that are unsettling—both for the faculty and students who are reviewing applications, and for the students considering the field. Despite the negatives, we move forward precisely because we can see ourselves helping to rewrite that script.

So, I'll ask you—do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?

The sad reality is that there is no right answer, and that's kind of the point.

 

[CoolSocks]

Actually, instead of just writing someone off blindly, I'm considering what other factors might have inspired what seems to be a highly unusual approach...because the point of all of us being here is to learn something new, right?

We can't approach people with things like cultural awareness; cultural humility; empathy and compassion; ethical responsibility to self and others; interpersonal skills; etc if we're wasting a perfectly good topic on how seemingly stupid someone's decision was. Don't you think this is a good place to put the pitchfork down and hold the mirror to yourself? I thought adcoms were supposed to be evaluating these qualities. Unless...it's all BS? Euphemisms written to legitimize accepting only those who otherwise would have been able to force their way through anyway? Don't we see this throughout every step of the admissions process, from the protracted academic path in comparison to other countries, to the expectation of extended free labor "so they know you really want it?" I did all the things, and apparently doing all the things is wrong, too.

At the end of the day, we all have choices. This person made theirs. And they weren't seeking your permission, at all—so I find the brutality inappropriate.

Look, I'm here too. I'm stepping into medicine because I believe its expressed values align with mine and present a future that I actually want to live in. Yes, there are realities that are unsettling—both for the faculty and students who are reviewing applications, and for the students considering the field. Despite the negatives, we move forward precisely because we can see ourselves helping to rewrite that script.

So, I'll ask you—do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?

The sad reality is that there is no right answer, and that's kind of the point.

My point is, this was not the point of this thread. Someone asked a specific question, explaining a specific situation, and you chose it as a place to get on your soap box. OP felt this was the appropriate place to ask for opinions, gave the context they felt necessary, and received feedback. If you want to think about context (other than adcoms who know more than the vast majority of us and have commented!) a lot of us responding are hurting, frustrated as we get rejected and someone else is acting, at least superficially, as if they are too good for a state medical school. It is normal to feel angsty about that.

You've created some sort of philosophical debate and managed to do so in a very condescending manor. That is inappropriate. I am not going to engage further in this weird monologue you seem to have going on.

PSSST, whoever is in charge, maybe lock this thread since its no longer on topic.

 

[CBass2288]

Anecdotally, I know a good amount of people with high LMs who make poor choices, and you don't have to be a "bumbling idiot" to make a bad choice either.

Exactly this. Poly is blowing it out of the water claiming that both can't exist. Book smart and street smart still do exist, and regardless of that, the highest IQ person in the world could make a choice that ruins their life. Just because the individual in question scored well on a standardized test and made it through college with a high GPA does not in any way exempt him from the possibility of making a bad decision. CLEARLY, because he just made one! Whether it works out for him or not is irrelevant because statistically it's hard to argue that it wasn't a bad one.

At the end of the day, we all have choices. This person made theirs. And they weren't seeking your permission, at all—so I find the brutality inappropriate.

Maybe they weren't, but their sibling was. Are all of us horrible people for answering their question honestly? Should we just ignore everyone who asks questions for others? You're not gonna last long if you find honesty as some sort of brutality. Get off SDN if you can't handle answers, because that's kinda the point. You have permission to invalidate my opinion as I am not a verified professional nor am I claiming to be. But the verified professionals gave their answers, why do you have such an issue with their experience-based opinions/honesty?

You want to make this something that it's not, and it has become counterproductive to OPs original posting. I am bowing out.

 

[polymerization]

My point is, this was not the point of this thread. Someone asked a specific question, explaining a specific situation, and you chose it as a place to get on your soap box. OP felt this was the appropriate place to ask for opinions, gave the context they felt necessary, and received feedback. If you want to think about context (other than adcoms who know more than the vast majority of us and have commented!) a lot of us responding are hurting, frustrated as we get rejected and someone else is acting, at least superficially, as if they are too good for a state medical school. It is normal to feel angsty about that.

You've created some sort of philosophical debate and managed to do so in a very condescending manor. That is inappropriate. I am not going to engage further in this weird monologue you seem to have going on.

PSSST, whoever is in charge, maybe lock this thread since its no longer on topic.

Exactly this. Poly is blowing it out of the water claiming that both can't exist. Book smart and street smart still do exist, and regardless of that, the highest IQ person in the world could make a choice that ruins their life. Just because the individual in question scored well on a standardized test and made it through college with a high GPA does not in any way exempt him from the possibility of making a bad decision. CLEARLY, because he just made one! Whether it works out for him or not is irrelevant because statistically it's hard to argue that it wasn't a bad one.

Maybe they weren't, but their sibling was. Are all of us horrible people for answering their question honestly? Should we just ignore everyone who asks questions for others? You're not gonna last long if you find honesty as some sort of brutality. Get off SDN if you can't handle answers, because that's kinda the point. You have permission to invalidate my opinion as I am not a verified professional nor am I claiming to be. But the verified professionals gave their answers, why do you have such an issue with their experience-based opinions/honesty?

You want to make this something that it's not, and it has become counterproductive to OPs original posting. I am bowing out.

All I can do is smile. You are proving my point.

Quick, quick! Lock the thread before he dismantles my argument further, with citations!

I wish you both the absolute best of luck in your future careers.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

And for what it's worth, if it is true that setting aside your self-esteem is part and parcel to succeed in this industry—we should hope I am not admitted. Because I will not tolerate it. Nobody should. The idea that being abused or exploited is part of "paying one's dues" is notoriously toxic and untrue. Indeed, there are many, many students I have met who have their family name on a building and experience medical school the same way a child experiences space camp. Challenging intellectually to some degree, but ultimately facilitated by the invisible hands of many individuals who unfairly conspire to make the process cinch-free for them.

Are you for real? My kid went to a low prestige MD granting medical school and 15% of her class had a BA or BS from an Ivy League undergraduate school and a bunch more had graduated with stellar numbers from hoitytoity liberal arts colleges. At a gathering of students and parents I told her how friendly, modest and unassuming her classmates were. She replied that the admissions process had beaten the narcissism out of her entire class. Then came the residency match and the whole thing started all over again. Residency was a real fun ride, too. I know one fellow who matched into a high-powered ENT residency program and at every weekly staff meeting one of the PGY1 residents would have to bring a hot bowl of oatmeal for the chairman and the resident had better not forget two packages of brown sugar.

 

[polymerization]

Are you for real? My kid went to a low prestige MD granting medical school and 15% of her class had a BA or BS from an Ivy League undergraduate school and a bunch more had graduated with stellar numbers from hoitytoity liberal arts colleges. At a gathering of students and parents I told her how friendly, modest and unassuming her classmates were. She replied that the admissions process had beaten the narcissism out of her entire class. Then came the residency match and the whole thing started all over again. Residency was a real fun ride, too. I know one fellow who matched into a high-powered ENT residency program and at every weekly staff meeting one of the PGY1 residents would have to bring a hot bowl of oatmeal for the chairman and the resident had better not forget two packages of brown sugar.

I hear you. I'm not saying that people won't try, but that's the challenge of adulthood, right? Knowing how to pick your battles; overcome adversity. If someone asking you for oatmeal is the most unpleasant thing that's happened to you by residency, well, more to my point—some people just have all the luck.

Myself, I've been thoroughly and wholly bodied by this system from several angles and have had to learn things I never wanted to. I had to learn how marginalized individuals in this process are ripe for exploitation; how to preempt it, address it, reform it; how to document and navigate systems (like I don't know, food stamps) that most applicants to medical school never have to, and cringe thinking about. Exhibit A.

What I'm saying is that we judge people as a monolith here, but the field is changing, and we need to be stewards of what comes next. Medical education, for a long time, has emphasized how pre-meds come into medical school with neurotic, truly frustrated mindsets—that whatever we're doing, it's wrong. Fine. So, then, shouldn't we be working on becoming more collaborative, friendly, and engaging earlier on in the process, to avoid the downstream reshaping of their idea of professional competition? If students really are as open and accepting as you claim, it should feel a lot less like pulling teeth. Exhibit B.

If medical schools are serious about their values, this is exactly the conversation that they should be having. And ultimately, I'm not even refuting your argument: I know the training itself is arguably exploitative by design. But that's my point: if we don't expose and talk about it, everybody loses, not just the people with the most to lose. The problem comes in convincing physicians and those who intend to become physicians, that they are human and deserve human dignity above and beyond their academic background.

The real structural violence nobody wants to talk about comes when you're sick and have to go in and see patients anyway under threat of being tossed out with yesterday's trash. It's being so disconnected from others, you're on your third divorce and more than half of your pay is going to alimony. It's doctors being afraid to seek mental healthcare under threat of licensing/credentialing/insurance issues.
It's conversations like these, where the clear theme is that doctors are perfect. Even when they struggle or fail, they only do so in socially acceptable amounts. They all look the same, feel the same, and respond with the same emoji reactions to comments. Anybody that doesn't look or sound like them is rejected and/or intentionally misunderstood.

But admissions says that it doesn't want those people. They say they want diversity of thought, of identity, of purpose. Medical education wholesale says they're working on making training more bearable. So what gives? How come we, as a community, cannot acknowledge the reality of the situation, while still just, I don't know, relating to each other with common human decency?

I get it. I make people uncomfortable. But maybe that's the point, too. All of this to say, I can totally see why someone would reach for prestige as security, an insurance policy on something they have worked their entire life to attain. A livelihood, a profession, meaning.

 

[chilly_md]

I encourage you all to go outside if the weather is nice where you are. Hopefully you see a dog.

OP got their questions answered, and it does not appear their brother will come themselves with any questions or concerns of their own.

Closing.