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[LizzyM]

1. Very, very rarely will a letter push someone over the top (once in 7,000 applications).
2. Lack of a letter from a PI when you've had a significant research experience can be a red flag for some reviewers. Others don't care.
3. No, having more letters is not required for higher ranked schools.
4. Both but especially pre-interview invite.
5. The date on the letter matters very little.
6. No, letters that are reused are not a red flag. Most likely those letters are not compared with the prior year's application, ain't nobody got time for that. Of course, if the letter has something damning in it and it is reused, it will be just as damning the second time around.

 

[Goro]

1. Do rec letters ever "push someone over the top?"
2. Does a lack of certain rec letters (e.g. research, most meaningful activity, etc.) come off as a red flag?
3. Does school rank matter (e.g. Is having more than the bare minimum from professors expected for Top 20 schools?)
4. Are letters read pre- or post- ii or both?
5. Does the date of the letter matter (e.g. does it need to be within 1yr, 2yrs, etc.?)
6. Are reapplicants rec letters seen as a red flag if reused? Are they compared to prior cycles?

After a while, they all gel. VERY rarely, there's a bad one that will sink a career. Rarely, like 5% of the time, a candidate gets a comment like "Great letters". So a single LOR is not going to help. BTW, I've seen LORs from Nobel laureates and US Senators. They don't move the needle.

PS's are the same, except there are more badly written ones. Yet' pre-meds somehow imbue them with magic qualities. At my school, I see LOrs prior to interviews.

 

[LizzyM]

In some cases, lack of a PI letter could be an argument against doing an interview (keep in mind, we are going to reject, pre-interview, about 75-85% of the applicants). In other cases, it might be mentioned by a reviewer as something to discuss with the applicant during the interview.

Many investigators and physicians are doing much less these days, rather than much more, due to the pandemic. Furthermore, most people who teach biology, chemistry, physics, math and non-science courses are working from home and have time to write letters.... I don't see any great leniency on the part of adcoms with regard to letters.

 

[LiteralLungs]

In some cases, lack of a PI letter could be an argument against doing an interview (keep in mind, we are going to reject, pre-interview, about 75-85% of the applicants). In other cases, it might be mentioned by a reviewer as something to discuss with the applicant during the interview.

Many investigators and physicians are doing much less these days, rather than much more, due to the pandemic. Furthermore, most people who teach biology, chemistry, physics, math and non-science courses are working from home and have time to write letters.... I don't see any great leniency on the part of adcoms with regard to letters.

Hey LizzyM,
What do you think of a letter from a postdoc (who is now on faculty at a school) (was a postdoc when I worked with him). When I asked him to have the PI cosign it, he said he'd never heard of such a thing and said no. I'm getting a letter from just him. Is this going to be an issue with some people? I already asked Gonnif about this, but I just wanted to get someone else's opinion as well.
I worked closely with him, and I believe he knows me much better. The PI does have prestige though.

 

[Goro]

Hey LizzyM,
What do you think of a letter from a postdoc (who is now on faculty at a school) (was a postdoc when I worked with him). When I asked him to have the PI cosign it, he said he'd never heard of such a thing and said no. I'm getting a letter from just him. Is this going to be an issue with some people? I already asked Gonnif about this, but I just wanted to get someone else's opinion as well.
I worked closely with him, and I believe he knows me much better. The PI does have prestige though.

Never, ever assume that one person's prestige is universal. Do you know who Paul Sereno is? How about George Church?

 

[LizzyM]

So, @LiteralLungs, you will have a LOR from someone with a PhD and a title indicating that they are a faculty member at a school. This person will write that they have known you for x amount of time and that you worked together in a lab under the direction of the lab PI, Dr. Bigwig. This PhD person will write that you, an undergraduate, did xyz, and had some positive attributes, and that you have some likelihood of academic success in medical school and/or the temperment to be a good clinical care provider. Doesn't sound like anything anyone would raise an eyebrow over.

 

[LiteralLungs]

Never, ever assume that one person's prestige is universal. Do you know who Paul Sereno is? How about George Church?

Ah good point. I guess people only know of others in the same field for the most part.

So, @LiteralLungs, you will have a LOR from someone with a PhD and a title indicating that they are a faculty member at a school. This person will write that they have known you for x amount of time and that you worked together in a lab under the direction of the lab PI, Dr. Bigwig. This PhD person will write that you, an undergraduate, did xyz, and had some positive attributes, and that you have some likelihood of academic success in medical school and/or the temperment to be a good clinical care provider. Doesn't sound like anything anyone would raise an eyebrow over.

Great, thanks.

 

[gulli_97]

Don't assume that a LOR is read pre-II, it is truly dependent on the school. I've seen on multiple threads students getting II without even sending in their rec letter.

 

[jhmmd]

A bad or mediocre LOR can sink your application. Use your good judgment when it comes to picking professors to write LORs for you.

 

[premedprepa]

is it a red flag to have an LOR from a college teacher who doesn't have a PhD but only has a masters? This teacher was a fine arts teacher who knew me better than my other teachers and offered to write me a LOR

 

[Engrailed]

If the professor is a member of the faculty and not an adjunct it should be okay

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

So a single LOR is not going to help. BTW, I've seen LORs from Nobel laureates and US Senators. They don't move the needle.

What if LOR says student is one of the best undergrad researchers in PI's 10+ years career?

 

[Goro]

What if LOR says student is one of the best undergrad researchers in PI's 10+ years career?

A) They never say that
B) Med schools aren't looking for grad students

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

A) They never say that
What if they truly say?
B) Med schools aren't looking for grad students
there are some undergrads who have more research experience than grad students.

 

[Goro]

there are some undergrads who have more research experience than grad students.

[/QUOTE]
True, but we're talking about medical school admissions, not for PhD programs.

Research is over-rated as a hook for med schools. Pre-meds do it because other pre-meds are doing it.

Research experience takes a back seat to research productivity.

 

[Jack-Kennedy35]

In some cases, lack of a PI letter could be an argument against doing an interview (keep in mind, we are going to reject, pre-interview, about 75-85% of the applicants). In other cases, it might be mentioned by a reviewer as something to discuss with the applicant during the interview.

Many investigators and physicians are doing much less these days, rather than much more, due to the pandemic. Furthermore, most people who teach biology, chemistry, physics, math and non-science courses are working from home and have time to write letters.... I don't see any great leniency on the part of adcoms with regard to letters.

Hey @LizzyM

I did research under a PI, who is also a nurse, and had a significant amount of research under her. However, she is not supportive of my decision to go to medical school. She told me, I should consider Nursing school or theology school but not medical school.

So in this case, what can I do?

I don't want it to be a red flag that I don't have a research LOR but she just doesn't want to write me one for medical school. She would be happy to for a masters program or another graduate school just not medical school.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

there are some undergrads who have more research experience than grad students.

True, but we're talking about medical school admissions, not for PhD programs.

Research is over-rated as a hook for med schools. Pre-meds do it because other pre-meds are doing it.

Research experience takes a back seat to research productivity.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with the generalization, but for research powerhouses won't research experience/production and very strong PI LOR (scenario I mentioned) matters?

 

[Goro]

True, but we're talking about medical school admissions, not for PhD programs.

Research is over-rated as a hook for med schools. Pre-meds do it because other pre-meds are doing it.

Research experience takes a back seat to research productivity.

I agree with the generalization, but for research powerhouses won't research experience/production and very strong PI LOR (scenario I mentioned) matters?
[/QUOTE]
For the research ******, then a PI LOR is usually needed. But not everyone applies to them. The wise @LizzyM can further barometer on a hypothetical "this is the next Linus Pauling" LOR.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I agree with the generalization, but for research powerhouses won't research experience/production and very strong PI LOR (scenario I mentioned) matters?

For the research ******, then a PI LOR is usually needed. But not everyone applies to them. The wise @LizzyM can further barometer on a hypothetical "this is the next Linus Pauling" LOR.
[/QUOTE]
Now I have to read all about Linus Pauling

 

[LizzyM]

In 10th grade, my lab partner and I named our fetal pig Linus Pauling. We were supposed to open his stomach. I removed it entirely. But I digress...

Research with a nurse? Almost sounds like an oxymoron. No one would expect a letter from a nurse. We are talking letters from basic science investigators with PhDs and labs with funding. If there are nurses doing bench research, please tell me about it.

 

[Jack-Kennedy35]

In 10th grade, my lab partner and I named our fetal pig Linus Pauling. We were supposed to open his stomach. I removed it entirely. But I digress...

Research with a nurse? Almost sounds like an oxymoron. No one would expect a letter from a nurse. We are talking letters from basic science investigators with PhDs and labs with funding. If there are nurses doing bench research, please tell me about it.

@LizzyM
She has a phD, and she is an RN. But she's a full time faculty who conducts Clinical research exclusively. The reason she doesn't want me to attend medical school is because she spoke about how she was "mistreated" in the 60s by physicians who looked down on nurses. Anyways, yeah she wasn't supportive of my decision to apply to medical school since the first day. I had a poster, and an oral presentation under her and even wrote a 1st author manuscript to be submitted.

She knew I am of a religious background and when I told her about my interest in medicine, she suggested I attend theology school instead. Another time, I told her I like patient contact experience, and she said I should attend nursing school instead. I was the only undergrad in her lab and so we have no post doc either.

She said she would be happy to write a letter for any program other than MD/DO. Should I talk about in secondaries? Is there anything I can do?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

@LizzyM
She has a phD, and she is an RN. But she's a full time faculty who conducts Clinical research exclusively. The reason she doesn't want me to attend medical school is because she spoke about how she was "mistreated" in the 60s by physicians who looked down on nurses. Anyways, yeah she wasn't supportive of my decision to apply to medical school since the first day. I had a poster, and an oral presentation under her and even wrote a 1st author manuscript to be submitted.

She knew I am of a religious background and when I told her about my interest in medicine, she suggested I attend theology school instead. Another time, I told her I like patient contact experience, and she said I should attend nursing school instead. I was the only undergrad in her lab and so we have no post doc either.

She said she would be happy to write a letter for any program other than MD/DO. Should I talk about in secondaries? Is there anything I can do?

what was the reason to continue in her lab knowing that she may not write a LOR?

 

[Jack-Kennedy35]

what was the reason to continue in her lab knowing that she may not write a LOR?

I knew she wouldn't write me a letter for med school when I asked her towards the end LOL. I was a part fo the lab for 2 years conducting clinical research and I was able to present a poster, given an oral presentation at a major conference and even helped write a 1st author manuscript, that is close to submission. I always assumed that even though she didn't like doctors, she would support my decision at the end of the day.

Sadly, I didn't know her feelings were that strong. She's an extremely good hearted person but she absolutely hated that I am considering medical school- due to how she was treated I suppose in the 60s. unfortunate all around.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I knew she wouldn't write me a letter for med school when I asked her towards the end LOL. I was a part fo the lab for 2 years conducting clinical research and I was able to present a poster, given an oral presentation at a major conference and even helped write a 1st author manuscript, that is close to submission. I always assumed that even though she didn't like doctors, she would support my decision at the end of the day.

Sadly, I didn't know her feelings were that strong. She's an extremely good hearted person but she absolutely hated that I am considering medical school- due to how she was treated I suppose in the 60s. unfortunate all around.

Sorry to hear that, educators are supposed to be unbiased but they are human too.

 

[LizzyM]

Completely absurd. This person should be reported to the head of the department. To hold back a student due to biases against a student's choice of career, rather than the student's attributes, is abusive. Can you imagine a faculty member who would say, "I won't write you a letter to attend theology school because I was mistreated by a member of the clergy 50 years ago!"

You will have to apply without the letter but you shouldn't leave without reporting this up the chain.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Completely absurd. This person should be reported to the head of the department. To hold back a student due to biases against a student's choice of career rather than the student's attributes, is abusive. Can you imagine a faculty member who would say, "I won't write you a letter to attend theology school becuase I was mistreated by a member of the clergy 50 years ago!"

You will have to apply without the letter but you shouldn't leave without reporting this up the chain.

Complain after securing med school admission?

 

[KnightDoc]

What if LOR says student is one of the best undergrad researchers in PI's 10+ years career?

I think the answer to your question seems to be the same as that for the letter from the senator or Nobel laureate. Two separate adcoms here have already said that good/great letters are expected and don't move the needle while bad letters can sink you. The good news is that your kid is going to have plenty that is going to distinguish him. The bad news is that great LORs are not going to be one of them.

What's the difference, anyway? If someone here told you LORs were the be all and end all, would your kid stop working on his PS and secondaries, and not bother to mention his other ECs??????? The cake is baked, and your kid is probably going to do great, but not because his PI is in love with him.

 

[Goro]

@LizzyM
She has a phD, and she is an RN. But she's a full time faculty who conducts Clinical research exclusively. The reason she doesn't want me to attend medical school is because she spoke about how she was "mistreated" in the 60s by physicians who looked down on nurses. Anyways, yeah she wasn't supportive of my decision to apply to medical school since the first day. I had a poster, and an oral presentation under her and even wrote a 1st author manuscript to be submitted.

She knew I am of a religious background and when I told her about my interest in medicine, she suggested I attend theology school instead. Another time, I told her I like patient contact experience, and she said I should attend nursing school instead. I was the only undergrad in her lab and so we have no post doc either.

She said she would be happy to write a letter for any program other than MD/DO. Should I talk about in secondaries? Is there anything I can do?

We need to hear from some other people who are at stratospheric schools @Moko? @gyngyn?
I can understand your concern, but I guarantee you that if you use her LOR, she will destroy your meidcla career. Better to have an Adcom wonder "why no PI LOR" than have one of those rare red flag bad LORs.

 

[gyngyn]

There is no way I could recommend a letter from this person, especially if you are applying to "research heavy schools."

 

[Moko]

We need to hear from some other people who are at stratospheric schools @Moko? @gyngyn?
I can understand your concern, but I guarantee you that if you use her LOR, she will destroy your meidcla career. Better to have an Adcom wonder "why no PI LOR" than have one of those rare red flag bad LORs.

I agree with others that you should apply without her letter in this case. Bad LORs stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[Jack-Kennedy35]

Completely absurd. This person should be reported to the head of the department. To hold back a student due to biases against a student's choice of career rather than the student's attributes, is abusive. Can you imagine a faculty member who would say, "I won't write you a letter to attend theology school becuase I was mistreated by a member of the clergy 50 years ago!"

You will have to apply without the letter but you shouldn't leave without reporting this up the chain.

We need to hear from some other people who are at stratospheric schools @Moko? @gyngyn?
I can understand your concern, but I guarantee you that if you use her LOR, she will destroy your meidcla career. Better to have an Adcom wonder "why no PI LOR" than have one of those rare red flag bad LORs.

There is no way I could recommend a letter from this person, especially if you are applying to "research heavy schools."

I agree with others that you should apply without her letter in this case. Bad LORs stick out like a sore thumb.

Thank you all for your responses and I'll stop following up with her about a letter. The one question I have to ask is as @LizzyM said and @Goro also previously said, research LOR are only " neccesary" by the research powerhouses.

1.) Should I talk about the reason why I don't have a research letter ( due to what I posted about with my nurse PI) in any of my secondaries? Maybe in the, "Is there anything that's not included in your app that you want to tell us? section" Or should I just leave it be?

2.) Or should I contact each school that I received a secondary from (who are research heavy schools) and explain over the phone regarding the Pi letter and ask them to leave a note on my account? Can I even do this? Would it look very bad?

 

[Moko]

Thank you all for your responses and I'll stop following up with her about a letter. The one question I have to ask is as @LizzyM said and @Goro also previously said, research LOR are only " neccesary" by the research powerhouses.

1.) Should I talk about the reason why I don't have a research letter ( due to what I posted about with my nurse PI) in any of my secondaries? Maybe in the, "Is there anything that's not included in your app that you want to tell us? section" Or should I just leave it be?

2.) Or should I contact each school that I received a secondary from (who are research heavy schools) and explain over the phone regarding the Pi letter and ask them to leave a note on my account? Can I even do this? Would it look very bad?

Just leave it be. The optics of drawing attention to and trying to explain this potential negative will hurt you more than it helps. Just my thoughts.

 

[KnightDoc]

You always try to tie it back to my kid and also no need to summarize various responses to me my friend My question is generic and focused on value of PI's LOR for research heavy (****** as @Goro calls). Responses here won't change how he approaches the applications/secondaries or school list. This is purely me trying to figure out the odds for T5 schools.

Is the question really generic? How many times each cycle does any given PI have the greatest undergrad researcher in their career?

And don't be so sure that there is no need to summarize -- the question was already answered twice, and yet it was asked anyway, because, generically, a letter from a PI who REALLY likes his research assistant might be more impressive then one from a Nobel laureate or a US Senator, or is an exception to the general rule of LORs very, very rarely pushing someone over the top.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

How many times each cycle does any given PI have the greatest undergrad researcher in their career?
I don't know how common it is for PIs to say that candidate is one of the best in their career and that's why I asked?
And don't be so sure that there is no need to summarize -- the question was already answered twice, and yet it was asked anyway!
Question was to differentiate between good/very good/excellent/next Linus Pauling for research ******!

 

[KnightDoc]

How many times each cycle does any given PI have the greatest undergrad researcher in their career?
I don't know how common it is for PIs to say that candidate is one of the best in their career and that's why I asked?
And don't be so sure that there is no need to summarize -- the question was already answered twice, and yet it was asked anyway!
Question was to differentiate between good/very good/excellent/next Linus Pauling for research ******!

Yes, and, all kidding aside, I'm sure it's pretty rare, and, taking the adcoms at their word, it doesn't make a bit of difference. The letters are expected to be good/great. It seems as though 95% of them are, and the adcoms appear not to take the time to parse between degrees of awesome and then make decisions based on that. It's the other 5% that seem to get their attention, and not in a good way.

I think the bottom line answer to your question is that it's the general level of excellence of an applicant (me, your kid, the generic applicant you are so interested in ) that will cause the PI, or anyone else, to write a great letter that will carry an application, and not the LORs themselves. Believe it or not, we'll all get the letters anyway.

I think the point is that your question just misses is that 60% fail each cycle, and yet the vast majority of them have no trouble finding a small handful of people to write great things about them in LORs. This leads the LORs to carry little to no weight, even when a family is well connected enough to have a very prominent person write the letter.

Given this universal truth, who on an adcom is going to give a crap about some random PI's glowing remarks about a UG research assistant when making an admission decision? Maybe I'm 10x better at research than your generic applicant, but my PI sucks at writing glowing letters, or just can't bring himself to say that I'm the best assistant in his 30-year career, even if I am. Do you really think an adcom is going to be swayed by the fact that your random applicant's PI writes better letters than mine, even though, objectively I am actually better at research, in the extremely unlikely event that the adcom even cares about that? It's the record and the entire application that counts, not the LORs, the vast majority of which are various degrees of glowing.

Now you have three responses that say the same thing; two by people who have experience, serve on adcoms, and know what they're talking about, plus me!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes, and, all kidding aside, I'm sure it's pretty rare, and, taking the adcoms at their word, it doesn't make a bit of difference. The letters are expected to be good/great. It seems as though 95% of them are, and the adcoms appear not to take the time to parse between degrees of awesome and then make decisions based on that. It's the other 5% that seem to get their attention, and not in a good way.

I think the bottom line answer to your question is that it's the general level of excellence of an applicant (me, your kid, the generic applicant you are so interested in ) that will cause the PI, or anyone else, to write a great letter that will carry an application, and not the LORs themselves. Believe it or not, we'll all get the letters anyway.

I think the point is that your question just misses is that 60% fail each cycle, and yet the vast majority of them have no trouble finding a small handful of people to write great things about them in LORs. This leads the LORs to carry little to no weight, even when a family is well connected enough to have a very prominent person write the letter.

Given this universal truth, who on an adcom is going to give a crap about some random PI's glowing remarks about a UG research assistant when making an admission decision? Maybe I'm 10x better at research than your generic applicant, but my PI sucks at writing glowing letters, or just can't bring himself to say that I'm the best assistant in his 30-year career, even if I am. Do you really think an adcom is going to be swayed by the fact that your random applicant's PI writes better letters than mine, even though, objectively I am actually better at research, in the extremely unlikely event that the adcom even cares about that? It's the record and the entire application that counts, not the LORs, the vast majority of which are various degrees of glowing.

Now you have three responses that say the same thing; two by people who have experience, serve on adcoms, and know what they're talking about, plus me!

You words carry more weight for me than the adcoms since you give nice and long explanations so this whole LOR business is to weed out 5% applicants who can't find someone to write decent LOR?

 

[Maimonides1]

We need to hear from some other people who are at stratospheric schools @Moko? @gyngyn?
I can understand your concern, but I guarantee you that if you use her LOR, she will destroy your meidcla career. Better to have an Adcom wonder "why no PI LOR" than have one of those rare red flag bad LORs.

Even though some schools might issue interviews without LORs but ultimately it will require them to complete the file.
As you all stated, the majority are middle of the run letters that don’t change things..,
but as we all frown upon the bottom 5% red flags letters, there will be a top 5% letters that come from well respected and connected faculty at the same institution or from small network of specific field faculty that can be well written and sway the needle significantly at the time of making decisions and acceptance offers!

 

[KnightDoc]

You words carry more weight for me than the adcoms since you give nice and long explanations so this whole LOR business is to weed out 5% applicants who can't find someone to write decent LOR?

Thank you for the kind words!!

Honestly, I doubt it was initially designed even to weed out the 5%. That's just what it has devolved into as more and more people submit more and more great letters. @Maimonides1 has a different opinion from the adcoms on the top 5%, so maybe they do carry some weight, but I think it's probably safer to say that they really more just to build a file and screen for the so-called red flags than to actually push someone over the top, particularly since schools sometimes issue IIs without them.

In the end, I think you wind up exactly where you expect to -- the super candidates who get the super LORs end up doing very well. Just don't confuse cause and effect -- the candidates do great because their applications are great (which also generates great LORs), but not because they have great LORs, because even mediocre candidates manage to submit great LORs!

 

[Goro]

Even though some schools might issue interviews without LORs but ultimately it will require them to complete the file.
As you all stated, the majority are middle of the run letters that don’t change things..,
but as we all frown upon the bottom 5% red flags letters, there will be a top 5% letters that come from well respected and connected faculty at the same institution or from small network of specific field faculty that can be well written and sway the needle significantly at the time of making decisions and acceptance offers!

you know, that's one thing I had not thought of before! At my school, where all the faculty know each other this would make a difference if the letter writer was one of our own.

Now at a larger institution, I don't know how the Adcom would react if the letter writer who is a fellow faculty member were unknown to the admissions committee members

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Thank you for the kind words!!

Honestly, I doubt it was initially designed even to weed out the 5%. That's just what it has devolved into as more and more people submit more and more great letters. @Maimonides1 has a different opinion from the adcoms on the top 5%, so maybe they do carry some weight, but I think it's probably safer to say that they really more just to build a file and screen for the so-called red flags than to actually push someone over the top, particularly since schools sometimes issue IIs without them.

In the end, I think you wind up exactly where you expect to -- the super candidates who get the super LORs end up doing very well. Just don't confuse cause and effect -- the candidates do great because their applications are great (which also generates great LORs), but not because they have great LORs, because even mediocre candidates manage to submit great LORs!

So for super candidates (stats and ECs) super LORs do help?

 

[futuredoc214]

There's a case to be made that an outstanding letter from someone who trained at a prestigious university will hold considerable weight at those universities and those considered "less prestigious." The applicant has to have all the other pieces in place (metrics, activities, good essays), but I think a letter that has the razzle-dazzle qualities (like a PI that studied/trained at Stanford, Harvard, etc. AND gasses the student up a ton) can open doors that would otherwise remain shut/make an adcom take you more seriously. That belief comes from personal experience. The "who's in your network effect"

 

[KnightDoc]

So for super candidates (stats and ECs) super LORs do help?

Well, they certainly don't hurt!! But what I'm saying, taking what the adcoms are saying at face value, is that it's easy to confuse cause and effect. A candidate is great, so he gets great LORs and has a great cycle. Were the LORs just consistent with the overall level of greatness, or did they contribute to it?

Since many not-so-great candidates also have great LORs, it seems as though LORs are discounted as an admission (or even II) input, and primarily impact decisions in a negative way, to the small extent that they do so at all. The evidence seems to suggest that LORs do not impact decisions for great candidates -- they are expected to have great LORs, and they typically do not disappoint (i.e., having a PI say someone is the best ever as opposed to just generally awesome doesn't make a bit of difference).