How can you tell if you are showing off or are being arrogant in a secondary?

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basupran

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Hi, I am working on my secondaries, and I wanted to get an another perspective. If I were to put something along the lines of:
my bosses took note of my hard work ethic, independence, and desire to learn, and placed me in the _______ group.

would I be showing too much arrogance? My bosses told me to my face that they noticed that I was always reading about science, that I understood methods, and I was always asking questions, which is why I was put in the solid-state lab.... should I mention this in my secondary? BTW, this is a full-time job/career.
 
btw, I am not looking for a 'pat on the back'. These are by no means exemplary achievements.
 
YES! Your application is your time to talk of your accomplishments, and being recognized by your superiors makes you stand out as a candidate. Don't say **** like "I was the smartest person in my lab" - you know, keep it honest and keep it personal. You want the adcomm to know you're sincere about what you're doing, and stuff like that verifies it.

just my .02
 
Originally posted by basupran
Hi, I am working on my secondaries, and I wanted to get an another perspective. If I were to put something along the lines of:
my bosses took note of my hard work ethic, independence, and desire to learn, and placed me in the _______ group....

Ideally, wouldn't your boss mention that in his/her rec letter for you?
 
Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Ideally, wouldn't your boss mention that in his/her rec letter for you?


It is probably in my file, but they wouldn't write me a letter for med school if I asked...would go against corporate mindset....helping a person they invested money in leave....
 
Originally posted by basupran
It is probably in my file, but they wouldn't write me a letter for med school if I asked...would go against corporate mindset....helping a person they invested money in leave....

Now that's just dumb. Of course your bosses will write you a letter, that's the whole point of the letter, to be from someone who knows your performance, boss or otherwise....

or were you kidding?
 
Originally posted by basupran
It is probably in my file, but they wouldn't write me a letter for med school if I asked...would go against corporate mindset....helping a person they invested money in leave....

Ugh.. that really blows. Sort of a double edged sword - from the adcoms perspective, if you have done such great work for them, then why didn't you get a rec letter from them? ...but if you get a rec letter from them, then it might be less than enthusiastic.

Does your boss know that you are applying to med school? Hopefully they will understand and support you in your career move. Obviously, you want people who know you well to write about you for med schools.

If they don't support you, then I guess you have no choice but to mention the fact that you were placed in ____ lab.
 
Usually people in corporate setting don't write letters of recommendation for people that want to leave.

And I will tell you why. You pay someone to do stuff for you at about 30-50 K a year. For the first two years people are generally not as productive. The productivity, in science at least, increases with experience. When you tell your boss that you want to leave, he will definetly not take it very well. Being left without the person that you trained for 2 years to do the work that needs to be done is very difficult for him. He has a boss too (that he needs to answer to), and this puts a lot of heat on him. Your manager now needs to find another person to work for him, and if he finds someone with experience he might have to pay them more than they pay you, or if he finds someone with no experience, then that person will have to be trained again, for a long time... etc.

I know it is a little bit weird, but managers in corporations usually do not write any good LORs.
 
Originally posted by basupran
It is probably in my file, but they wouldn't write me a letter for med school if I asked...would go against corporate mindset....helping a person they invested money in leave....

I work (do research) for a HUGE corporation and had no problems. In fact, most companies expect their brightest to go on to further education, especially in a lab/research setting. They recognize your potential and see how you could be limited by a BS. I would ask for the letter, I'm about 99% sure they would write one.

BTW, even I-bankers are known to leave after a year when their company has just given them a $30K bonus on top of their salary. Now, I KNOW that you don't get that kind of bonus in research, so they only money they've invested in you is your salary and maybe a relocation/signing bonus. Trust me, you won't be the first to leave. Just ask them for the letter. Your accompliments sound 100x better coming from another person. If anything, if you state your accomplishments and say how wonderfully you did, and didn't have a letter from your boss, it might raise some eyebrows.
 
For the OP, said 'corporate mindset' isn't as delimiting as you might think. I work in a very corporate-minded firm. When I asked my senior VP for a letter, her immediate response was: "I LOVE doing these things. When do you need it?"

Don't be afraid to ask. The absolute worst thing that can happen is they say no... and potentially give you a hard time for a few months. But even in that case, everyone's there to work and not to give Newbie Premed #75 a protracted noogie for wanting to go to medskool. The best and more likely result is a golden LOR.
 
No, the worst that can happen is they write you a bad LOR. This has happened. Most people who know how to play the game will refuse to write a LOR if they know it will be bad.
 
Hmmm...this is my second job after college. At my first job, I did very well, and I asked my bosses if they would write me LORs. Most of them said yes, but the catch was, I said I was considering attending grad school in a science the company could utilize. Hence, they were less apprehensive, as they thought I would stay. I am sure that my direct boss did not write me a good LOR, as he asked me why it said 'pre-health' on the request form, and I had to explain it to him.

In all honesty, good help is hard to find. Again, I bust my butt at work, and it shows. Bosses realize this, and they don't want workers with that mindset to go. It is in their WORST interest to write a good LOR, as it would make getting into med school easier, forcing me to quit the job. I have not told my bosses that I am applying to med school, and I feel guilty about it. This recent position change involves heavy training in complex equipment, and it is expensive to train (based on salary/pay of two employees). On the other hand, I realize that the company let go of people who didn't deserve to go, and then rehired. One guy just had a kid, and they fired him 3 days later (though there was some reason behind it, they could have worked around it). It is the way of the corporation...it is a money making machine, otherwise, it would not survive the fierce competition out there.

When looking for a job, I felt sooooo guilty when I was asked my career plans. I went on several interviews, and it boiled down to this. When asked what my career goals were: if I mentioned the words medical school, I got the 'we'll give you a call'...if I said I was not sure, or I have not made any moves yet, I got the job. I had not applied to medical school by the time of the interviews, so I was not lying or witholding information. I had not made any moves. It is like the whole thing with women getting hired. Many companies think twice b4 hiring newlywed women, as they fear maternity leave. You can argue all you want about it being unlawful, discrimination, etc., but that is looking at a theoretical world. In reality, corporations do discriminate. If they see any potential impediments to you doing the work required of you, you will not be hired. Especially in this market, they can just as easily move on to the next candidate. I was very very lucky to get my current job, and I like it a lot. It has great potential, and it is not a technician type position. The only problem is, becoming a physician is more important to me, and I am willing to take on the monetary loss (no pay while in med school).
 
I feel your pain. I worked as a research analyst for the clinical research department of a large HMO, and one day, my manager pulls me in and asks me why I am taking all this time off when there is so much work that needs to be done. I told her that I was going to interviews. Sure enough, she pulls me into her office later that week and gives me "you are not a good fit with the company" speech. Up to that point though, everything was just dandy. I got along with everyone at work, and stayed late to make sure that I got my projects done on time. So much for trying to get a LOR from her... I barely had any time to work on my secondaries...

Just tough it out, and think of your job as a mean to an end.
 
Having worked in corporate and other situations, I second the idea that most bosses are very selfish and will not want to see a good worker leave.

Investment banking is notorious for no references (and no bonuses), and you would be fired on the spot or nearly so, if you made any peep about leaving. It is absolutely NOT in their interests to help YOU.

I worked for someone for three years and I thought we made the best team, and that he was an excellent boss. Just when I told him I was leaving for school he became enraged and even shook his fist in my face several times 😱 I was devastated, tyo say the least.

Needless to say, when I was able to extract a humble ref to volunteer he had written nasty comments like: "she works well if given simple tasks and instructions".

When Penn State asked me why I didn't have a letter from my 6 years in Ibanking, I politely explained that the environement was intensely competitive and that if it had been known I was taking courses for another line of work, I would have been fired. Something along those lines.

Basupran man, I think you already know the score. Trust your excellent instincts and toot your own horn.
 
Originally posted by basupran
...It is the way of the corporation...it is a money making machine, otherwise, it would not survive the fierce competition out there.

Whatever happened to the Fordist notion that businesses should be loyal to the employees and the employees be loyal to them. In those settings, workers are happy and the companies are more productive (higher worker morale, less job turnover). Are businesses so obsessed with short term profits that they can't see the long term problems associated with these types of hiring/firing practices?

If your employer had a shred of humanity, then he/she would be concerned about you and your own career desires. I'm sure they will be disappointed but at the same time, they shouldn't put $$$$ over people.

Yet another reason why the academic setting is much more appealing to me.
 
Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Whatever happened to the Fordist notion that businesses should be loyal to the employees and the employees be loyal to them. In those settings, workers are happy and the companies are more productive (higher worker morale, less job turnover). Are businesses so obsessed with short term profits that they can't see the long term problems associated with these types of hiring/firing practices?

If your employer had a shred of humanity, then he/she would be concerned about you and your own career desires. I'm sure they will be disappointed but at the same time, they shouldn't put $$$$ over people.

Yet another reason why the academic setting is much more appealing to me.

Unfortunately, corporations put $$$ over people all the time. If they do something out of the ordinary, there is a profit driven motive in there somewhere (oftentimes publicity). With competition so fierce, this is expected.

The reason why employers are loyal to employees, or care about their happiness is simple: increased productivity. Do you not see the motivation there? By increasing productivity, they have done their job as a boss.... the work increases, they get a promotion, they can buy that bigger house, afford eating out every night, and have their husbands or wives reduce their nagging. The employees happiness fueling the bosses happiness increases his productivity, which in return gives the bigger boss more of what he wants to hear (information on something). You have to think about it in a very simple way...a corporation is out to make money, and everything it does pertains to it. It is selfish in a way, but it is the way of the world. Like natural selection is selfish, it is the way of the world. I like to think of the corporate world as the natural selection of today. You are weeded right out if you can't meet their requirements. Sure, things were hard for early-man, but it is hard for us in a different way. Unfortunately, almost every setting is like that. Non-profit differs slightly, where most of the people are humanistic.
 
Originally posted by woolie
Having worked in corporate and other situations, I second the idea that most bosses are very selfish and will not want to see a good worker leave.

Investment banking is notorious for no references (and no bonuses), and you would be fired on the spot or nearly so, if you made any peep about leaving. It is absolutely NOT in their interests to help YOU.

I worked for someone for three years and I thought we made the best team, and that he was an excellent boss. Just when I told him I was leaving for school he became enraged and even shook his fist in my face several times 😱 I was devastated, tyo say the least.

Needless to say, when I was able to extract a humble ref to volunteer he had written nasty comments like: "she works well if given simple tasks and instructions".

When Penn State asked me why I didn't have a letter from my 6 years in Ibanking, I politely explained that the environement was intensely competitive and that if it had been known I was taking courses for another line of work, I would have been fired. Something along those lines.

Basupran man, I think you already know the score. Trust your excellent instincts and toot your own horn.

Woolie, what's up? How is everything going? I am completing my secondaries. Little time with work, but it has to get done.
 
Originally posted by basupran
The reason why employers are loyal to employees, or care about their happiness is simple: increased productivity. Do you not see the motivation there? By increasing productivity, they have done their job as a boss.... the work increases, they get a promotion, they can buy that bigger house, afford eating out every night, and have their husbands or wives reduce their nagging. The employees happiness fueling the bosses happiness increases his productivity, which in return gives the bigger boss more of what he wants to hear (information on something). You have to think about it in a very simple way...a corporation is out to make money, and everything it does pertains to it. It is selfish in a way, but it is the way of the world. Like natural selection is selfish, it is the way of the world. I like to think of the corporate world as the natural selection of today. You are weeded right out if you can't meet their requirements. Sure, things were hard for early-man, but it is hard for us in a different way. Unfortunately, almost every setting is like that. Non-profit differs slightly, where most of the people are humanistic.

Not sure what the point of your post is but my problem with the way businesses are run these days is that they have NO loyalty to their employees. Businesses care more about the short term gains associated with laying off employees and relocating companies rather than promoting the long term health and stability of the company and the work place.
 
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