How competitive is Integrated Vascular (0+5) as of now?

[Triple_AAA]

I recently spoked with a community vascular guy who was biased with going through the general surgery route but really thought the integrated was also fading in popularity like the fellowships (though to a lesser degree).

I always was drawn to vascular and thought the integrated route was basically untouchable for DOs but have been "hearing" that the glamour of the integrated program has been starting to fade a bit?

Only 7 DOs applied this year according to the data with, 5 matched and 2 unmatched. The scores were pretty high still and lots of research but how much of it do you all think was self selection and auditions?

I'll still be shooting for general surgery but do you think vascular is possible for DOs?

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[Billroth_III]

Always thought it was super competitive. Wouldn’t mind hearing more about this though #bump

 

[BoneWizard]

The scores were pretty high still and lots of research but how much of it do you all think was self selection and auditions?

Pretty much. It's possible, but not very likely for the average student.
The only real surgical sub DOs have a reasonable shot at is Ortho.

 

[Billroth_III]

Pretty much. It's possible, but not very likely for the average student.
The only real surgical sub DOs have a reasonable shot at is Ortho.

Agreed.

I think numbers are low because so few are interested in it and it’s not easy by any means.

 

[DO2015CA]

What is the draw to vascular? Serious question. During medical school I saw quite a bit between surgery (one of the attendings was vascular) and anesthesia rotations.

 

[Billroth_III]

The fellowships tanked in competitiveness and then they introduced the integrated to regain popularity. Anything integrated has has this shiny appeal to it (see CT and IR) and it does save you some years of training through general surgery which can a big attractant to some.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What is the draw to vascular? Serious question. During medical school I saw quite a bit between surgery (one of the attendings was vascular) and anesthesia rotations.

Slick procedures, cool tech, salaries are going up because of the insane demand, your wheelhouse being the thing that other surgeons fear the most (bleeding), etc.

If you can handle vasculopaths, terrible hours, and patients that never truly get better then it’s a pretty legit field. But it isn’t for everyone by any means.

I5 Vascular is very competitive because it’s a very small field and everyone knows everyone. You have to show a real dedication to it. For people that can do that it isn’t quite as competitive as the other subs. DOs do ok in the vascular match, but you need the things I mention above, in addition to good academics.

 

[DO2015CA]

Slick procedures, cool tech, salaries are going up because of the insane demand, your wheelhouse being the thing that other surgeons fear the most (bleeding), etc.

If you can handle vasculopaths, terrible hours, and patients that never truly get better then it’s a pretty legit field. But it isn’t for everyone by any means.

I5 Vascular is very competitive because it’s a very small field and everyone knows everyone. You have to show a real dedication to it. For people that can do that it isn’t quite as competitive as the other subs. DOs do ok in the vascular match, but you need the things I mention above, in addition to good academics.

your second paragraph is exactly what I saw and didn’t get. The population and continuing terrible hours for the entirety of my career. Thanks for explaining

 

[slowthai]

your second paragraph is exactly what I saw and didn’t get. The population and continuing terrible hours for the entirety of my career. Thanks for explaining

Yeah, I feel like vascular is more about saving life and limb, no matter how crappy that life or limb will be.

 

[DO2015CA]

Yeah, I feel like vascular is more about saving life and limb, no matter how crappy that life or limb will be.

Too true. *shrug* I chose peds because it’s generally a healthy population and even the chronic kids are pretty upbeat. We all have our deciding factors and I can totally see why people choose vascular after it was explained but man for me I would become depressed in a field where no one gets better truly

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Pretty much. It's possible, but not very likely for the average student.
The only real surgical sub DOs have a reasonable shot at is Ortho.

I think there's plenty of fellowship options for DO gen surgeons to match into reasonably.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Too true. *shrug* I chose peds because it’s generally a healthy population and even the chronic kids are pretty upbeat. We all have our deciding factors and I can totally see why people choose vascular after it was explained but man for me I would become depressed in a field where no one gets better truly

I mean a person with critical limb ischemia who can now feel their leg and doesn't need an amputation is probably gonna be really happy they had a vascular surgeon.

Also you have to remember that it's general surgeons. They're into cutting up cool ****. People actually want to do things like whipples for 12+ hours. It's not something that us floor scrubs get lol.

 

[calivianya]

One of the DO vascular matches was from my school. He was part of a panel over the summer where some of the matched people were nice enough to talk to us over zoom and he had 20+ pubs (seriously, most were statpearls but still), close personal connections in the field to vouch for him, and great board scores (both steps 250+ if I remember correctly).

It’s definitely possible, but difficult. But I’m also of the opinion that only 7 people applied because it’s an awful job. Have you met the types of patients who are vascular patients? I’d chew off my arm to escape from most of them. There’s only so much attitude and what feels like people deliberately killing themselves on purpose because they can’t be bothered to manage their own health that I can deal with every day and stay sane.

 

[Butters Stotch]

One of the DO vascular matches was from my school. He was part of a panel over the summer where some of the matched people were nice enough to talk to us over zoom and he had 20+ pubs (seriously, most were statpearls but still), close personal connections in the field to vouch for him, and great board scores (both steps 250+ if I remember correctly).

It’s definitely possible, but difficult. But I’m also of the opinion that only 7 people applied because it’s an awful job. Have you met the types of patients who are vascular patients? I’d chew off my arm to escape from most of them. There’s only so much attitude and what feels like people deliberately killing themselves on purpose because they can’t be bothered to manage their own health that I can deal with every day and stay sane.

Is StatPearls an adequate enough substitute if you can’t get something published near you?

 

[Triple_AAA]

Thanks for the replies everyone!!! As a DO student, I'm fully aware I would most likely have to go through general surgery first (if vascular even still interests me).

 

[calivianya]

Is StatPearls an adequate enough substitute if you can’t get something published near you?

He said for him it was - mostly because of volume, I imagine. He said everyone commented on the sheer number (20+) of pubs he had more than anything else.

Unfortunately, there's really nothing much available to med students on StatPearls at this point. They don't let you write most of the disease/topic/procedure articles and they only have a handful of things left anyway (I'm signed up as an author because of this guy, but I haven't found anything I can do). He kind of got lucky with his timing that there was so much left to do when he joined. They're about done now.

 

[Cath Up]

What is the draw to vascular? Serious question. During medical school I saw quite a bit between surgery (one of the attendings was vascular) and anesthesia rotations.

700k/yr is reachable without working too hard

 

[Triple_AAA]

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Hey thanks for providing these charts, I'm new to this and not so great at interpeting this stuff though. What exactly does a lot of this mean?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hey thanks for providing these charts, I'm new to this and not so great at interpeting this stuff though. What exactly does a lot of this mean?

Exactly what it says. 16 DOs submitted ERAS apps to I5 Vascular programs this year. 17 did last year and 5 matched.

 

[Fat_Albert]

had to perform an exam on a retired vascular surgeon during my pre med days. Guy told me he hated his life and should've done ophthalmology lmao

 

[Heeach]

Hello

in ERAS 2021, I recieved invitations from 2 schools till now for Vasc Surg

1) Zucker at Hofstra
2) Texas medical branch


I would like to know if they are good programs or not and more info about them is possible bceause the info at their websites are not that much.

Thanks

 

[_DeBakey_]

Depending on how well I do on boards and making connections during 3rd / 4th year, I am planning on 0+5.

I've spoken to DOs who went through it and basically said connections and sincere dedication to the field (think in the form of research and auditions) is more important than ridiculously high scores.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

The PD at strong memorial is awesome! He returns emails and encourages students to rotate and do research with the program

 

[Mbeas]

The most important things are board scores, research and a good interview. Arguably, the most important thing is connections. The reality is that a good connection will make up for your sub par board scores. If you don't have any connections, then you need great board scores. When you are in your 3/4 year, scrub as many vascular cases as possible and introduce yourself to as many vascular surgeons. Get good, meaningful letters. Know some basic vascular procedures and anatomy when you scrub. Nobody expects you to know how to do an EVAR or open AAA, but at least watch a YouTube video and have a basic understanding. See patients in the morning and help change bandages. This especially applies to a patient that you operated on.

Most places only take 1-2 vascular residents so you have to stand out in a good way.

Also, for the people hating on vascular, every field in medicine has its pros and cons. There are plenty of vascular surgeons with decent lifestyles and enjoy their job and plenty of pediatricians who wish they chose something else. No doubt the hours are longer than some fields but this is something that you need to accept if you decide to pursue the field. Doesn't mean you are stuck at the hospital 24/7 without vacation.

The short story to your question is it is definitely possible but will be an uphill battle. There still is a bias against DO's for whatever reason.

 

[aafisahar]

700k/yr is reachable without working too hard

Not working too hard is like 60 hrs a week plus call. Vascular consistently tops hours worked in most surveys, even outpacing neurosurg.

 

[slowthai]

Not working too hard is like 60 hrs a week plus call. Vascular consistently tops hours worked in most surveys, even outpacing neurosurg

That's crazy. And no one even really talks about vascular. Guess it's because it's kind of a sleeper specialty. It's very small, and there's no real prestige associated with it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That's crazy. And no one even really talks about vascular. Guess it's because it's kind of a sleeper specialty. It's very small, and there's no real prestige associated with it.

Lifestyle is a big part of it. At a lot of places you legit might be the only vascular surgeon in the hospital. Where I’m from there is only one guy, and this is a larger urban area with a Level 2 that covers a pretty large geographical area. Not many days off

 

[_DeBakey_]

IVS is also becoming a way to get into a cardiac fellowship I’ve been told. While you may be trailing with the thoracic side of things due to skipping out on general surgery, you will be extremely comfortable with the wires and definitely marketable if you’re looking to join a Cardiovascular PP that is doing peripheral work too.

 

[Billroth_III]

IVS is also becoming a way to get into a cardiac fellowship I’ve been told. While you may be trailing with the thoracic side of things due to skipping out on general surgery, you will be extremely comfortable with the wires and definitely marketable if you’re looking to join a Cardiovascular PP that is doing peripheral work too.

I’ve heard similar in regards to missing out on the thoracic skill set by going vascular vs general surg

 

[Mbeas]

IVS is also becoming a way to get into a cardiac fellowship I’ve been told. While you may be trailing with the thoracic side of things due to skipping out on general surgery, you will be extremely comfortable with the wires and definitely marketable if you’re looking to join a Cardiovascular PP that is doing peripheral work too.

This is true. Also, not only is there much greater comfort with wires, but comfort with sewing anastomoses and handling thin sutures like 6/7-0 prolene. It depends on where you train for general surgery too. At some places, the thoracic experience is poor so honestly a vascular resident will have more comfort with thoracic cases than a general surgery resident.

 

[_DeBakey_]

This is true. Also, not only is there much greater comfort with wires, but comfort with sewing anastomoses and handling thin sutures like 6/7-0 prolene. It depends on where you train for general surgery too. At some places, the thoracic experience is poor so honestly a vascular resident will have more comfort with thoracic cases than a general surgery resident.

Didn’t even think about that, but I can imagine how that would be huge!