Yes I performed a search,
Please humor me
Many thanks!
Please humor me
Many thanks!
How difficult for a DO to match into Orthopedic surgery?
- Thread starter Led Zep
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2010
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 1
Just as difficult as it is for an MD to match into ortho.
There are significantly less DO ortho spots.
There are significatnly less DO students.
Look up some DO match lists.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
actually... slightly (just slightly though) easier than it would be for an MD. You'd still need to excel at the field and be a very strong applicant.
But ortho and Rehabilitation medicine/Pain Med (physiatrists) are two areas where practicing DOs are overrepresented based on the proportion of DOs vs MDs in the american market.
I guess family practice would prob fit in that overrepresented too. But I was citing the specialties.
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2005
- Messages
- 3,245
- Reaction score
- 139
I don't really know anyone in my class who wanted an ortho spot and failed to get one, although there may be someone. There was one guy who failed to match into a slot and got a rotating spot... but the dean got him out of that spot and helped him land an ortho slot after the match.
A lot of people will "self-select" themselves out of a spot by finally realizing that they just don't qualify for ortho and choose something else.
A lot of people will "self-select" themselves out of a spot by finally realizing that they just don't qualify for ortho and choose something else.
DocEspana and I disagree about this.
DocEspana's view:
85/2114 = 4%
85 = number of AOA ortho spots
2,114 = number of DOs participating in the AOA match in 2010
Cliquesh's view:
(85+3)/4106 = 2.1%
85 = number of AOA ortho spots
3 = number of DOs matching ACGME ortho
4106 = total number of DOs looking for a residency
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2010sklstats.htm
http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2010prgstats.htm
Compared to US-MDs:
598/16070 = 3.7%
598 = Number of US seniors matching ortho
16070 = Total number of graduating US seniors
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 8,454
- Reaction score
- 39
Roughly translated ... it's a crapshoot regardless, but slightly less awful for US MDs trying to match ACGME. Whenever I see these threads, relevant or not, I essentially always try to push the point that ROAD-esque residencies are for ballers (for the most part) MD and DO alike. A below average MD student isn't going to be able to sign up for an integrated plastics residency at his home institution simply because he's a US MD, just as a DO superstar with perfect grades, COMLEX, etc, isn't going to be 'doomed' to practice FM in rural Iowa for the rest of his life simply because he's a DO.
It's tough, it's competitive, and it's only going to get worse. If you're good (or get good), you'll probably have an alright shot from either side. Technically, it's easier from the US MD side of the coin, but I don't think a 3.7% chance at anything in life would make me sleep more soundly than a 2.1%.
Funny anecdote, I was recently involved with a discussion in pre-allo that fell along these same lines and after people kept arbitrarily throwing around the famous SDN catch phrases, a few people (myself included) actually did some number crunching and came to the same conclusion - you have a few % better chance (pure number wise and for NOW - expansion will kill) coming from US MD, but not anywhere near as great as people make it out to be, and it's a biotch either way.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2010
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 1
you number is just a tad bit off there. 16070 is the number of total US-MD. But in the match, US-MD are facing off againt previous US grads who didn't match, non-US IMG, IMG, DO, Canadians and 5th pathway programs (whatever that is...what is that anyway?). Now adding only the active applicants in each category comes out to 30,543 active applicants in the NRMP match (page 9 in nrmp report).
With a total of 656 ortho positions.
656/30543 = 2.147% chance of 1 a US-MD matching Ortho against all other students.
Of course however not all of these 30543 are competing for ortho.
of the 30,543 only 8655 total students tried to obtain an ortho spot. of those 8655, 801 were US seniors. SO:
801/8655 = 9.25% chance of a US-MD matching Ortho against other students competing for Ortho.
Did I get that right?
I just think it's much more important to look at the number of applicants as opposed to the number of actual matches.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
ahhhh so many numbers!! sooo many!!!
I don't need to cite them. Though i'm preferential to skippynuts view on it.
I heard this straight from the horses mouth out of the residency director for ortho from LIJ. He said that he prefers DOs to MDs every time if the qualifications are equal. Of course they have to be equal. He also implied that this is pretty much the norm for ortho and PMR docs too.
While its anecdotal, it also makes sense because orthopaedics and PMR both lend themselves to the "osteopathic training" a bit more. While I usually feel its arrogant to suggest DOs somehow think differently than other docs, constantly being given 'more complex than youd think' injuries which draw from distant sources of somatic disfunction does prep you for what orthos should be vigilant about.
Also LIJ is a pure ACGME program associated with SUNY Downstate, if people aren't familiar with it and think i'm referencing a dual accredited (its not) or AOA residency. Is he indicative of most orthos? possibly. Many? He clearly implied so.
I don't need to cite them. Though i'm preferential to skippynuts view on it.
I heard this straight from the horses mouth out of the residency director for ortho from LIJ. He said that he prefers DOs to MDs every time if the qualifications are equal. Of course they have to be equal. He also implied that this is pretty much the norm for ortho and PMR docs too.
While its anecdotal, it also makes sense because orthopaedics and PMR both lend themselves to the "osteopathic training" a bit more. While I usually feel its arrogant to suggest DOs somehow think differently than other docs, constantly being given 'more complex than youd think' injuries which draw from distant sources of somatic disfunction does prep you for what orthos should be vigilant about.
Also LIJ is a pure ACGME program associated with SUNY Downstate, if people aren't familiar with it and think i'm referencing a dual accredited (its not) or AOA residency. Is he indicative of most orthos? possibly. Many? He clearly implied so.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 15,463
- Reaction score
- 1,908
From the data above, only 3 DOs matched from the 653 total that matched ACGME.
Match Data > Program director blowing smoke
And as said before, the pure numbers of applicants/slots game is different when the average applicant has a 240. There are plenty of ortho wannabe's that couldn't hack it that didn't even apply thus the match rate is artificially inflated.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
Given our actual representation we should only have 10% of the spots. So 65. We got 88. I'm going to be the first to admit that is because there are 85 DO ortho spots. But I never said it had to be ACGME spots, nor did the OP ever suggest such. It *is* easier for a DO to get ortho spots because we are plain out overrepresented by 35% in that field. When you measure the ease to get a spot you dont sit here and say "well but those are reserved for us". Plain and simple its easier to be trying to get the 88 or so spots DOs will get out of the 6,000+ DOs than trying for the 650 spots MDs get given how many there are.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2006
- Messages
- 6,133
- Reaction score
- 2,369
The best way to figure out how difficult it is to get is to calculate %who got a spot/% who wanted a spot.
598/801 = 75% of MDs who wanted a spot got an ortho spot
Now I don't think we have data from the osteo side of things. If anyone has data, post it.
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 8,454
- Reaction score
- 39
Sucks to think that 1 out of every 4 qualified, intelligent, ortho-esque type applicant didn't get a spot. I know 75% for a competitive field is good, but 25% of very intelligent, deserving people working their asses off to get TO the level of applying Ortho and then not matching is just a bummer. Granted, I'm sure they weren't as qualified as the 75% that did match, but still probably very smart, well rounded docs all around.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2008
- Messages
- 204
- Reaction score
- 0
I am not a fan of these 'how difficult it is to match into_______ field'. Who cares how hard it is. If that's what you wanna do than it doesn't matter how hard it is, just get it done.
Btw a new Ortho residency is opening up in NJ this year and from what I heard 1-2 more should be on their way in the northeast by 2013. So now hopefully we all won't have to move to Michigan to do ortho.
Btw a new Ortho residency is opening up in NJ this year and from what I heard 1-2 more should be on their way in the northeast by 2013. So now hopefully we all won't have to move to Michigan to do ortho.
Are you trying to say DOs have an easier time matching to an AOA slot than an MD?!? 😀
Rather than crunch numbers (due to self-selection, etc), I think it's fair to say it's quite difficult with either degree.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
hahaha. obviously i would have to say that. 😉
No I just thinks its silly to say that you have to count DOs in some way that is equivalent to MDs when we have a seperate pool of our own to dip into. Its not "fair" but its our one little advantage. So a good way to measure it is to simply measure the representation in the workforce, regardless of if they came from a AOA or ACGME program, a ortho is an ortho. We put out more orthos than we should be, because we have more DO ortho spots per student than MDs do per student. Then we steal 3 or 4 of theirs as well just for fun.
How do you come up with that? There were 16070 MD grads in 2010 and 3895 DO grads. 3895/16070 = 24%
So, according to you, DOs should have at least 24% the number of ortho matches as MDs. If that were true, then 0.24 X 598 (# of US-MD seniors matching Ortho) = 143 DO ortho matches. But only 88 DOs matched ortho last year.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
DOs = 3895. MDs = ~36,000. You realize that there are almost twice as many MDs applying for residencies as there are actual graduates every year, right? While we make up around 20% of the graduating US seniors (you undervalued the number of MD senior graduates by about 1,000), we have a lower number and raw percentage of previous graduates reapplying.
add in that you HAVE to count MDs applying into our system from other countries (in this case i'm referring more specifically to foreign doctors *not* from the caribbean. These guys tend to pre-match outside of the system since they tend to be older doctors who did ortho all their life before coming t america. This is unlike carib MDs who do tend to be irrelevant in ortho numbers).
Not including the fact that there are 10,000 applicants you seem to overlook is like saying that the AOA trained orthopaedists dont count. Both of them seem like logical points, but they aren't because the question didnt specify that he wants to know only between these two people, and the real world doesn't limit to to only graduates of this year. The real world does include previous graduates (of both degrees), and overseas graduates.
When you count them in, we make up 10.5-11% (depending on the numbers used) of the total population. we make up much more than the 68 or whatever we're supposed to be at.
Statistics and I have a long sordid history. Gotta actually measure what is relevant, not what is easily available numbers.
When anyone asks these kinds of questions they are as looking for a comparison between US-MDs and DOs. Moreover, when discussing ROADs specialities, Non-US-IMGs are irrelevant. Only 12 of those 10-15k Non-US-IMGs matched ortho. Maybe some of them pre-matched like you said, but I seriously doubt it was large number of them.
Anyway, last year, there were 3895 DO grads and 85 ortho spots. This year there were 4228 grads and 88 ortho spots.
Anyway, last year, there were 3895 DO grads and 85 ortho spots. This year there were 4228 grads and 88 ortho spots.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 2,633
- Reaction score
- 405
Nice call editing. That was uncalled for...
FWIW, both sides of the arguments are skewing the numbers in their favor. I think scpod has posted the most relevant thing in this thread.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
quoting you because most of what i'm gonna say is just defending that while i know my numbers skew pro-DO, they should be the numbers used in every measurement, be it focusing on DO grads, allopathic grads, or physicians in general. I use these values across the board, even in allo forums.
The context here is that everything I do takes into account IMGs because they are what i've spent months of my life researching every aspect of for legislative purposes. I think its silly to ask a question that really addresses who becomes a doc and then eliminate massive numbers of applicants who definitely do apply en masse because they rarely succeed. That logic would mean you'd have to eliminate the 3 or 4 DOs who match ACGME ortho every year because they are such a small number of the pool in the ACGME programs.
So yea, I count people who most sort of go 'oh yea forgot you exist'. It only seems like skewing cause people are so convinced that no IMG can ever compete with a US-MD or DO. I disagree. I think they should always be counted because they fall into the same field as "previous graduates" to me. People who have a lower chance of matching, but are fully trained and definitely competing for the spots and definitely match more often than people are comfortable admitting. The only class of student you can isolate out from the big number "mess-o-applicants" for a residency are the DOs because they have the exclusive AOA match, everyone else that can apply ACGME should be counted in the ACGME numbers.
Its one system and they all become the same kind of doctor. Dismissing them and their large numbers because they arent as likely seems arrogant to me. (and I have very jaded views against their schools, but i'd never underestimate the abilities of the students themselves).
Its two different sets of numbers. But I will defend the value of my numbers to my death because its this ignoring of the pressure they exert on the system that is letting IMGs (especially from the carib) pull of what they are pulling off in training and PGE.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
btw, i totally feel that "you both have a point" arguments like this are how various pathologies get 3 or 4 accepted names as each doctor tries to slap their name on it and then neutral parties decide to call it "x deficiency"
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2009
- Messages
- 75
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm actually wondering what the general ACGME match rates for DOs are. Seeing as it would be difficult to study enough to score well on both the COMLEX and the USMLE, I'm curious what the match chances for even a relatively non-competitive specialty ACGME residency would be.
Neurology, for example--I've heard that it's pretty friendly to DOs. On the other hand, there are some good neurology programs such as the one at UVA that do not appear to have ever accepted a DO. Granted, that may just be from lack of applications.
Neurology, for example--I've heard that it's pretty friendly to DOs. On the other hand, there are some good neurology programs such as the one at UVA that do not appear to have ever accepted a DO. Granted, that may just be from lack of applications.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2009
- Messages
- 1,682
- Reaction score
- 12
This past year, I believe the match rate for DOs in the ACGME match was 71% pre-scramble.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
if this number is accurate it would make the match rate for the ACGME be just slightly harder than the match rate for the AOA. Which is surprising. Most schools this year clocked in at about a 24% non-match rate. (I'm eyeballing the list, i didnt do the actual average, but its around there). A 29% rate for the ACGME isnt bad at all.
You guys are so informative; could you help me understand this?
I am going to start at a DO school this year and I am trying to do the most research I can.
How competitive would it be to match into a Pediatrics/Psychiatry/Child and Adolescent Psychiatry residency (ACGME and AOA)?
As graduates of osteopathic medical schools, we can try for both right?
Forgive me if I sound clueless, would really appreciate any insight on this!!!
Thanks.
I am going to start at a DO school this year and I am trying to do the most research I can.
How competitive would it be to match into a Pediatrics/Psychiatry/Child and Adolescent Psychiatry residency (ACGME and AOA)?
As graduates of osteopathic medical schools, we can try for both right?
Forgive me if I sound clueless, would really appreciate any insight on this!!!
Thanks.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
I am in no way shape or form an expert on this, but since no one tackled it yet I'll use my limited knowledge of the matches to give you a response. The AOA seems to have very limited psych spots. As such, I assume its moderately-to-very competitive since the spots are so few and its not an uncommon field to want to go into.
The ACGME has many more spots on the other hand. I'm under the impression that while you'll still need to impress people, that its much less competitive and their are enough spots in each area of the nation to give you some choices in each "region" so that you wont have to apply all across the nation or to a few restricted areas as you would with some other residencies.
I dont know the numbers though, because I personally have no interest in psych beyond being able to identify the drugs my patients will be on and to know when a person is having organic brain syndrome (or whatever drug overdose craziness is called nowadays)
It is pretty hard. There are only ~17 ACGME spots for ped/psychiatry/child and I don't think there are any AOA ped/psychiatry/child psych. Last year, 1 DO took one of those 17 spots.
Doing a psychiatry residency is easy and doing a Child and Adolescent psychiatry fellowship is also easy. There were 327 fellowship positions last year and only 275 were filled. If you did this route you wouldn't be able to practice straight pediatrics, however. You would still need to do a pediatrics residency.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2010
- Messages
- 24,604
- Reaction score
- 49,569
exactly... but that would be a 23.2% non-match rate. Not 30%. check your math.
572/2467 = 23.19
lol, yea. what **** am I smoking.
Are you saying it would be easier to do a general/adult psych residency followed by a child and adolescent psych fellowship? But if I still wanted to practice pediatrics I'd have to do a peds residency on top of that?
Thanks for your help!!!
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 15,463
- Reaction score
- 1,908
While all these double and triple residencies sound awesome and in theory you will practice a little bit of everything, nobody is able to truly get the patient mix to do 50/50.
I'd suggest you decide Peds vs. Psych, and particularly don't worry about matching triple board before you attend med school.
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,385
- Reaction score
- 64
The OP's thread has been hijacked, this should be in its own thread but I will reply anyway. I am not in med school yet but I have worked for over a decade in psych and had a lot of contact working with psychiatrists and psychiatry residents in a hospital/academic setting.
In general, psychiatry is not a difficult residency to match into. I doubt you'd have trouble matching to a decent program as a DO. I worked with a DO pysch resident 7 years back and I imagine DOs are even more accepted now. Child and adolescent psychiatrists are really in demand right now. I think it is great that you are looking into this specialty. It is sad but many areas, esp rural areas, have no child psychiatrists and this really causes families problems - I have seen the results of inadequately treated kids many times over the years and it is not pretty.
No, if you do a child/adolescent psych fellowship you will not be qualified to do pediatric work. A psych residency focuses on treating mental illness and you won't be doing much "regular" medicine in a psych residency. Whenever patients in the psych hospital need something for a physical issue they have someone come over for a consult. You just won't be learning pediatric medicine in a psych fellowship. There possibly may be a combined peds/psych residency out there somewhere, though.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2004
- Messages
- 361
- Reaction score
- 110
There are around 800 MD applicants for about 600 spots or so. For DO spots, I will say that easily 200 applicants for 85+ spots. So statistically it's easier to match MD ortho, however, that group of 800 MD students is pretty self selected based on stats. In the DO match, there are plenty of Orthogunners with mediocre stats because of the power of audition rotation which can propel you all the way to the top, even with mediocre stats. Not so much in the MD world though, those programs are much more number whorish.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 5,436
- Reaction score
- 4,042
I have a question here:
I was wondering if a DO ortho trained resident could match into MD ortho fellowships? I used the "search" feature, and found people who say that in order to take the exam, one needs to be an MD residency graduate; while others say that matching into ortho fellowships isn't as hard and could be done after doing either rounte.
Does anyone have any input on this?
I was wondering if a DO ortho trained resident could match into MD ortho fellowships? I used the "search" feature, and found people who say that in order to take the exam, one needs to be an MD residency graduate; while others say that matching into ortho fellowships isn't as hard and could be done after doing either rounte.
Does anyone have any input on this?
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 8,454
- Reaction score
- 39
It's my understanding (which could be wrong) that AOA trained Orthopods can match ACGME (or whatever else) fellowships. Also, apparently there are several different types of fellowships for orthos, some are very competitive - sports med, some are not ... so it's probably all going to depend on what you go for.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2004
- Messages
- 361
- Reaction score
- 110
Fellowships are wide open as long as you are not too picky about location
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2010
- Messages
- 421
- Reaction score
- 1
I know this has been answered ^^ but the answer is yes again. I shadowed a hand specialist MD who said a DO ortho did a hand fellowship with him.
Similar threads
