How do "Happiness" Studies and Neurology mix?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
B

blueadams

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
54
Reaction score
4
Members do not see this ad.
Hello,

Before I get started here, I should probably give a little bit of background information about myself...

I am a soon to be graduate of a small (but highly regarded) liberal arts school. I am going to be getting my degree in liberal arts. I have not taken any neuorology courses (my school didn't offer them), but I have taken some basic pre-med courses (bio, chem, orgo), I have taken about half-a-dozen psych courses (intro, developmental, social, cultural, statistics for psych majors), and I completed my senior thesis in Positive Psychology (about a 100 page paper).

I have spent a lot of time worrying about what career field I want to go into (neurology, psychiatry, psychology, academia, etc.), and about how to get into those career fields (post-bacc, masters, PhD, etc.), and it has gotten me nowhere. So, I am going to take a step back here and simply state what it is that I am interested, and hear what you all have to say about it.

I am interested in "Happiness." Philosophically, it seems to me that there is nothing more important in this lifetime than achieving happiness, and helping others to do the same. So, I want to learn all there is to learn about what it is that makes us happy, and I want to apply that knowledge (to myself and as many others as I can).

First and foremost, I am interested in learning about what it is that occurs in the brain that actually makes us feel positive emotion, or happiness. Then I want to learn about what it is in the outside world that triggers this synaptic response. I basically want to be an expert of happiness to the highest possible degree. And I would like to do more than just research, write and teach. I would like to apply this knowledge on a personal face to face basis.

So...I guess my main question is what should I do next? What kind of graduate degree should I be pursuing? Is there a place for me in the medical world - neurology, psychiatry, or clinical psychology? Or am I going to be restricted to the academic world? And if that is the case, what kind of degrees should I be pursuing? Neuroscience? Neurobiology? Behavioral Neuroscience? Cognitive Psychology? Social Psychology? Or some kind of combination of the above (or otherwise)?

For me, research is work, even if I am interested in it. I have no problem going to school for another eight or so years. But at some point, I would like to get into therapy of some sort. Therapy, for me, wouldn't be work at all. It would be something that I truly LOVE to do. But I want to be a very, very good therapist. A cutting edge therapist. I want to start at the beginning - learning about the basic neurological processes that result in positive emotions. Then I want to apply that knowledge to the outside world - to identify what exterior events trigger those neurological processes.

Any advice would be greatly, greatly appreciated! Thank you very much in advance!

Sincerely,

Blue
 
If you want to do therapy, then clinical psychology or psychiatry are really the way to go. Neurologists are not really trained to perform therapy, and neuroscientists and biologists are not trained or licensed to.

Happiness is an ephemeral concept, and one at the biologic level that is very difficult to test or quantify. I would venture that reading every neuroscience textbook ever written would not really get you any closer to understanding it than you are right now. You can hand-wave about dopamine and serotonin and some form of neuro-synaptic swarm theory of consciousness, but I'm not sure that would get you any closer to, as you say, "apply that knowledge" to take care of patients or know thyself.

Brain stimulation and some seizures can cause expansive and religious preoccupation. Mania can cause god-like ideas of reference. Spinal cord stimulation can cause a sensation of orgasm. I'm not sure any of these approximate your goal of understanding human emotion. Philosophy would probably get you closer than anything.
 
First - thank you for your reply.

Second - so, you're telling me that the field of neurology has basically learned nothing about what kind of reaction it is in the brain that causes positive emotion?

I'm sorry, I'm a baby in this world, so I'm sure these kinds of questions are very annoying to you. But I'm very eager to get started, and really just trying to identify a place to begin my research.
 
I think many neurologists get into the field due to an interest in cognition, rational thought, philosophy of the mind, etc, then end up gravitating towards more answerable questions. When I was a med student first thinking about neurology, I thought I was going to do cognitive work and deal with the "big questions", now I would like nothing more than to understand how high-grade gliomas escape angiogenic blockade.

Put simply, I don't think that neurology is the best way to get where you want to go. There will be a lot of time talking to sunglass-wearing young women with unexplainable spells, and not so much time becoming an expert on happiness. In fact, talking to sunglass-wearing young women with unexplainable spells may be the opposite of happiness.
 
GopherBrain said:
I think many neurologists get into the field due to an interest in cognition, rational thought, philosophy of the mind, etc, then end up gravitating towards more answerable questions. When I was a med student first thinking about neurology, I thought I was going to do cognitive work and deal with the "big questions", now I would like nothing more than to understand how high-grade gliomas escape angiogenic blockade.

Put simply, I don't think that neurology is the best way to get where you want to go. There will be a lot of time talking to sunglass-wearing young women with unexplainable spells, and not so much time becoming an expert on happiness. In fact, talking to sunglass-wearing young women with unexplainable spells may be the opposite of happiness.
Click to expand...

well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humor! lol. i'm sensing that what you are saying though is that my pursuit is more of an academic one than a medical one, correct?
 
blueadams said:
well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humor! lol. i'm sensing that what you are saying though is that my pursuit is more of an academic one than a medical one, correct?
Click to expand...

Definitely. Perhaps something within cognitive science, or neuroscience. I'd think a PhD in one of those fields will get you closer to your goal than an MD and a residency in Neurology or Psychiatry.
 
GopherBrain said:
Definitely. Perhaps something within cognitive science, or neuroscience. I'd think a PhD in one of those fields will get you closer to your goal than an MD and a residency in Neurology or Psychiatry.
Click to expand...

just out of curiosity, why did you say a PhD in cognitive science or neuroscience, but not psychology?

I more or less agree with you, I think, as far as an MD not fitting in with my goals. But its an interesting problem I have, because what I would really enjoy doing, I think, is face to face interaction in therapy...which is obviously psychiatry or psychology. But the issues I am most interested in investigating aren't going to be topics in med school or even clinical psychology. Maybe I am looking at a long, long road of a PhD followed by a more professional degree.
 
Oh come on!! You dont need a PhD to research "finding happiness".

A few drags on the bong will do. Or try joining the OSHO brigade.........
 
pep45 said:
Not a whole lot of Neurology, but interesting none the less...

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html

ENJOY!! 🙂
Click to expand...

I just re-watched that video, and was inspired to take my concerns to Dr. Gilbert himself. Hopefully he responds to my email. Here is a copy...in case any of you have some brilliant ideas yourselves:

Dear Dr. Gilbert,

Hello, my name is (my name), and I am a soon-to-be graduate of (my school), a small liberal arts school in (my state) (I am not a psychology major, but I did do my senior thesis in on M. Csikszentmihalyi's contributions to psychology, so I am somewhat familiar with the field of happiness research).I had a question regarding your TED talk, "Dan Gilbert asks, Why are we happy?" I am sure that you are very busy, and will probably not have the time to answer my question...but if you could even just suggest some reading that might help answer my question, it would be greatly, greatly appreciated.

Anyways, on to my question...In your lecture (the last portion, about reversible vs. irreversible choices), you seem to be implying that a person with few career options to chose from (a child that grows up on a farm and has no choice but to farm for a living, or a person with a very specific skill-set that is suitable only to a small number of career fields) will eventually be able to synthesize happiness, and become content, or happy. And also that a person with many career options to chose from (someone like me, I think, that has a wide array of skills, suitable to a large number of different career fields), will be forever tormented by his plethora of alternative lifestyle options (even if I pick something, and take the plunge, the prospect of a career change will always be a possibility, right?).

As you might have guessed, I am in the process of choosing a career to pursue, and I am very stressed out about it. Your lecture seems to imply that a person like me, with a lot of options, will never be able to synthesize happiness, because I will always have the possibility of another career in the back of my mind. So, is my only choice to pursue "authentic" happiness, like that of a Bill Gates? Or to pursue something like Medical School, where I will accumulate so much debt that I have no choice but to stick in the profession and work it out (to chose something where switching careers is not possible)?

I am very interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter! Also, I very much enjoyed your lecture (thank you for giving it), and look forward to becoming more familiar with your body of work.

Thank you very much for ANY help that you might be able to provide.

Sincerely,

(my name)
 
Last edited:
Here are the keys to happiness according to recent NY Times articles:
-Never have kids
-Move to Ecuador or Denmark
-Have your marriage arranged (extrapolating from Gilbert lecture)
-Medidate daily (per article on Tibetan monk who is the "happiest man in the world")

Perhaps you can triangulate all of these and determine where happiness comes from. If I remember correctly, this Tibetan monk was able to greatly increase the activity in his frontal lobe through meditation. They inferred that this explained his happiness. Not sure I buy it. They are able to treat depression, however, with TMS to the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex so maybe there is something to it.
 
Head said:
If I remember correctly, this Tibetan monk was able to greatly increase the activity in his frontal lobe through meditation. They inferred that this explained his happiness. Not sure I buy it. They are able to treat depression, however, with TMS to the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex so maybe there is something to it.
Click to expand...

There we go. That's a start! That's what I'm talking about!
 
Thanks for posting the lecture, very interesting. Clearly there is something about not having choice that people don't like = makes them unhappy because they try to avoid it at all costs. Yea maybe in the end people decide it was all for the best, but if you live your entire life where you have few choices about anything then wouldn't this make you miserable anyway even as you "synthesize" contentment retrospectively with each individual decision? Plus, he makes it seem like people's psyches are immune to negative events. That's just not true. Other studies have correlated happiness with wealth and depression with chronic illness. Maybe these people end up being happy with their MS and their fibromyalgia but I'd bet they suffer a long time beforehand. He cites some anecdotes from people who were probably just very fortunate to be born with more happy genes.

As for the OP, I agree with others that you should get a psychology (or cog sci/brain sciences, even neuroscience) PhD if that's what you want to study. Neurologists hit people with hammers.
 
Although not entirely on topic, Blue might find this relevant. If for a moment you pretend that your definition of happiness can be equated to finally finding God or reaching enlightenment, the field of Neurotheology might interest you. I believe the main claim was that processes in neurological physiology, like increasing N, N-Dimethyltryptamine levels in the pineal gland, can be used to explain a variety of spiritual experiences. In the 1980's, Dr. Michael Persinger used magnetic fields to artificially stimulate the temporal lobes of people to see if he could induce spiritual experiences, including but not limited to:

-the perception that time, fear or self-consciousness have dissolved
-spiritual awe
-oneness with the universe
-ecstatic trance
-sudden enlightenment
-altered states of consciousness
-well-being and satisfaction with life

You'll be able to find a wide variety of articles about Persinger's "God helmet," "the God spot of the brain," and "Neurotheology" all over the internet. As you would expect from attempts to connect neuroscience with spirituality, the subject matter has received its fair share of critism and fanaticism.

From the very brief Google search I did right now, I can tell you that some of the leading researchers in Neurotheology are University professors with Ph.D's in Psychology. You may or may not want to do the same.

Unfortunately, not a lot of research has been done on the topic of applying neuroscience to happiness. So, I'm afraid that you aren't going to find a lot of places that would hire you to do what you described you wanted to do in a clinical setting or through therapy. You could, however, pave the way for the future Blueadams of the world by inventing the field of "Neurohappiness" yourself. If you did, I would look forward to reading about your research.
 
Last edited:
If you haven't already, you should check out the field of positive psychology.
 
Economics? Maybe a little off, but Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize for his work in this field.
 
Might want to check out Joseph LeDoux's work. He's a basic researcher but his work has direct implications on how clinical people think about emotion. On the basic science level, you'll find a lot of researchers who tend to separate thinking and emotion and generally come to the conclusion that emotion is something that messes with our cognition. LeDoux takes a different approach, based on anatomy, and his conclusions have implications for understanding TBI patients, OCD, and your everyday neurotic human. His two books - The Synaptic Self and The Emotional Brain, are readable enough for anyone I think.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DrStephenStrange
ABPN vs AOBNP initial neurology boards
Replies
1
Views
547
s5260205
S
B
Good behavioral neurology fellowships?
Replies
3
Views
974
neglect
neglect
Dr Google
Do neurology fellowships hire IMG/FMG candidates who have done neurology residency abroad?
Replies
7
Views
2K
Aldertonghen
Aldertonghen
Sidus1011
Neurology Away Rotation Advice
Replies
1
Views
768
s5260205
S
D
Neurology Applicant Tips
Replies
3
Views
2K
Aldertonghen
Aldertonghen
Top