HOW do people get so many face-to-face hours?

[DynamicDidactic]

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Called APPIC and they said that all hours are logged whether terminal masters or doctoral. They said the sites determine if they will count them, however, if they meet all the other requirements (i.e. supervised by licensed PhD, etc) then they are historically counted by most sites. Hope that helps!

as I mentioned earlier they are logged under distinct categories and sites can do as they please.

you also list what institution and program you were in when you attained those hours.

all in all, APPIC does a pretty damn good job and is rarely congratulated.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

How are those hours verified? I know with the doctoral hours your DCT/program has to sign off on them, so is this same process done for the non-doctoral hours? Does the applicant need to go to their prior institution and have their prior DCT sign off on the hours?

Yes. Both DCTs sign off on hours and the doc program's DCT keeps the documentation as proof, just as with doc hours.

 

[ResearchGirlie]

Because I think this can be really relevant for people, can you cite where this is stated please (and what is says?)

Sorry I don't have a citation for this but I would recommend calling APPIC or emailing the APPIC listserv. This is the information I was given by my DCT after they had asked several others and the response I read on the listserve when other students asked a similar question.

 

[neuroal]

How are those hours verified? I know with the doctoral hours your DCT/program has to sign off on them, so is this same process done for the non-doctoral hours? Does the applicant need to go to their prior institution and have their prior DCT sign off on the hours?

I'm assuming they are accepting the DCT at the master's program is signing off as part of the program and the psychologist is as well as part of being on their license. If it was transferred in and accepted by the doc program perhaps that's why since all other criteria are met that they use to determine eligibility. I know we have to log our hours, have the supervisor (PhD) and the DCT sign-off for them to get credit etc, and be able to show what we did so maybe it's based on how stringent the Masters is? I have no idea. How do they verify hours in a doc program or what do they do differently?

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

As these guys mentioned previously, only one F2F hour per group hour.

1.5 to 2 hour groups for 2 to 3 years when you're running to 2 to 3 groups with summers included adds up, however.

Like Ollie, my groups had quite a few people in them. This provided me the opportunity to accrue even more hours with their intakes, even if they there was attrition later on... (most of them usually returned, so they had to go through another intake--which resulted in more hours for me).

However, it also screwed me over because my program didn't want to provide me with another practicum opportunity after one year of that experience. I had "too many hours."


You & me both.

How is that fair? That's like saying "Hmm, we don't want you to be too qualified...that's enough training for you."

 

[paramour]

How is that fair? That's like saying "Hmm, we don't want you to be too qualified...that's enough training for you."

Because our program has **** for practicum sites and not enough love to spread around. I've beat my head against that wall for the last 3 years. It's pointless.

 

[cara susanna]

Sounds like a lot of people had "captive" clients or regularly scheduled groups. I think I'm lower on hours because my placements were/are at sites that had high no-show rates.

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

Because our program has **** for practicum sites and not enough love to spread around. I've beat my head against that wall for the last 3 years. It's pointless.

😱 I think I was seriously underestimating how bad the practicum situation was...or maybe I was just in denial 🙄 Do you know how many hours people typically get in our program by the time they apply for internship? Hearing all these 700+ numbers are making me really anxious...kinda made me think that I should try to go for one of the group sites just to get enough hours (and I guess deal with the fact that I won't be able to apply for another practicum)?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

all in all, APPIC does a pretty damn good job and is rarely congratulated.

Agreed. It seems like a pretty thankless job, so I have tried to keep that in mind during and after the process.

Sounds like a lot of people had "captive" clients or regularly scheduled groups. I think I'm lower on hours because my placements were/are at sites that had high no-show rates.

All 3.5 of my placements were captive, though that was not synonymous with wanting to be there, often it was quite the opposite. I think any interest in therapy got beat out of me working w. high relapse/pathology populations. Good times!

 

[PHD12]

😱 I think I was seriously underestimating how bad the practicum situation was...or maybe I was just in denial 🙄 Do you know how many hours people typically get in our program by the time they apply for internship? Hearing all these 700+ numbers are making me really anxious...kinda made me think that I should try to go for one of the group sites just to get enough hours (and I guess deal with the fact that I won't be able to apply for another practicum)?

Don't you guys apply for practicum sites so as long as you get into a site (and its on the program's list as having adequate training), you can go anywhere? I thought that was pretty typical and i was in a competitive location.

 

[cara susanna]

Our program actually arranges the practica and has to approve of them before we apply--basically, there's a list that we have, and we turn out application materials into our DCT who forwards them onto the sites. But that's also our source of funding for third and fourth year.

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

Our program actually arranges the practica and has to approve of them before we apply--basically, there's a list that we have, and we turn out application materials into our DCT who forwards them onto the sites. But that's also our source of funding for third and fourth year.

I'm pretty sure that's how ours works as well, although apparently our list is pretty short

 

[cara susanna]

Ours isn't the greatest for therapy hours, they're mostly assessment sites.

 

[paramour]

😱 I think I was seriously underestimating how bad the practicum situation was...or maybe I was just in denial 🙄 Do you know how many hours people typically get in our program by the time they apply for internship? Hearing all these 700+ numbers are making me really anxious...kinda made me think that I should try to go for one of the group sites just to get enough hours (and I guess deal with the fact that I won't be able to apply for another practicum)?

The program *tries* to verify that everyone has at least 500+, but many students are usually low on hours because many of the sites don't have the greatest reputation for accruing lots of hours. The site where I (and some other past students) managed to obtain quite a few group hours is no longer available. Due to this, *most* students will be granted more than one practicum because there's no way you're going to earn 500+ hours with only one site and the hours you've racked up in the PSC.

Don't you guys apply for practicum sites so as long as you get into a site (and its on the program's list as having adequate training), you can go anywhere? I thought that was pretty typical and i was in a competitive location.

I'm pretty sure that's how ours works as well, although apparently our list is pretty short

Not quite. We "apply" for practicum sites, but we may or may not receive them because we have a very limited list. There are also umpteen other people applying for the same sites, and there are usually only one or two placements for each site. So everyone's not going where they want (if they go anywhere at all). Several years ago, this was not as much of an issue. Unfortunately, we are not so far away from a major area with a lot of professional schools/students. Those students started "encroaching" on some of our placements by offering to work for free. We lost some of those placements for that reason. Then, some of our placements were lost because of economic reasons in the past few years. Dwindling down our opportunities to almost zilch. That list has thankfully increased by "a bit" over the last couple years but it is still relatively limited, especially for general/adult track students. And then those options aren't the greatest. There are still too many students applying each year for not enough placements. Although previously unheard of, it's starting to become more common in the past couple of years for students to start taking unpaid, voluntary practicum placements (if they can jump through enough hoops for the dept to approve them) just to increase their hours and experience. It's a giant pain in the arse.

In the meantime, students have questioned faculty about addressing these issues truthfully with potential incoming students. They are/were told in no uncertain terms that it is not a problem and that they should not be discussed because it's not that big a deal. So "keep your mouths shut."

Some students make it work because they manage to have awesome faculty who advocate for them and land the placements they need/want. Other students get royally frakked and then some.

 

[PHD12]

Not quite. We "apply" for practicum sites, but we may or may not receive them because we have a very limited list. There are also umpteen other people applying for the same sites, and there are usually only one or two placements for each site. So everyone's not going where they want (if they go anywhere at all). .

That sucks! There was a shortage of sites in my location as well. However, the student had complete autonomy (as long as the site was on an approved list) and landing a placement was based on "merit." You apply to a good number of sites and basically compete with students in your program and all the other programs in the area. It was like an internship match sort of thing where only the "strong" survive. In these situations, first years students have it rough. In the past, most people landed something or found something through the program eventually. I don't know how its been the past few years, but I know its become more competitive with time. I think the practicum shortage, particularly since the recession, just mirrors the job market and internship shortage in our field. When i realized that unpaid hospital positions were getting over a hundred applicants for practicum, I knew it wasn't going to be easy to get a job either.

 

[futurepsydoc]

For those of you who apply to internship with 700+ F2F hours (especially those with 1000 or more), how do you get so many hours? Certain types of placements (in patient, schools, prisons, etc) where no-shows are less likely? Taking additional pracs? Overscheduling clients in anticipation of no-shows? Certain types of clinical work? I'm legitimately curious, as it seems like no-shows and/or heavy support hour requirements can be such a struggle in some settings, which can create APPIC hour issues.

In regards to the OPs original question, I believe the are many factors at work in accruing face to face hours.

First, one has to consider when people start seeing clients in their doctoral program - 1st vs 2nd year? Moreover, when one does begin seeing clients, what is the process like from a developmental perspective. Are students eased in 1 case, 2 cases, and then eventually one full day? Depending on the program, the difference between beginning 3rd year students could be extremely high (e.g., 300 versus 100). This could account for a good portion of the difference.

Second, what settings is the individual working in throughout their training. In some places, like an inpatient unit or day treatment program, you may co-facilitate several groups each day you are present. You may also meet with the clients individually for various reasons depending upon the setting (i.e., intake, crisis intervention, individual therapy). You could end-up getting 8-10 face to face hours for a 2-day per week practicum. That is close to 500 hours for a year. Counseling centers, particularly those in large universities, are also extremely busy. Setting plays a large role.

Third, it depends on what your focus is on with respect to training. Some people place much more emphasis on clinical training and may pick up one or two clients in their school clinic on top of their externship or practicum experiences. In contrast, someone else might be putting in more hours in their mentors lab or cultivate multiple projects on their own. *****To note, the APPIC data suggest that PHD students have more face to face hours on average than PsyD students when they apply for internship. I find this to be very strange given the "supposed" emphasis on clinical training in PsyD programs. I am wondering how anyone can nail down 1,000 hours and publish well. It is those students I would like follow around for a week, piggy backing on another poster's comments.

Fourth, people now are forced to spend more time in graduate school because of the internship imbalance. An extra year in one's program, a year in which you are not taking classes but simply working on your dissertation and seeing clients, allows for the accumulation of even more hours prior to applying.

If you consider all of these factors, one can see how an individual can reach a high level of hours. To me, the most important component is not the hours, but rather, the ratio of FACE TO FACE HOURS to SUPERVISION HOURS. Taking it a step further, the breakdown of INDIVIDUAL SUPERVISION HOURS versus GROUP SUPERVISION HOURS is also key. The ratio of clinical hours and individual supervision hours is a strong indicator of training versus mere experience. I think TDs look at these numbers a lot.