How does one become an effective pharmacist?

[trx]

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I've come to the discouraging realization that grades in school do not determine everything (what's the point of getting good grades when I forget most of what I've learned anyways.. not that I mean to..). So, what other alternatives are there to improve oneself as a pharmacist? I'm thinking work experience (residency) is one... Also, how do people deal with the fact that they lose much of what they learn in school?

 

[sdn1977]

Are you a student or a pharmacist?

You're so right - grades become meaningless unless you are able to apply what you learned. Thats why most of us don't care what our pharmacy gpa was nor our actual board pass score was (I never found out what mine was!).

What keeps you from using what you've learned or making your learned material into a real life situation? I lose what I don't use, but not in a comlete sense - most of the pertinent material is always back there - I just need to come up with it from my memory.

 

[a504n]

I've come to the discouraging realization that grades in school do not determine everything (what's the point of getting good grades when I forget most of what I've learned anyways.. not that I mean to..). So, what other alternatives are there to improve oneself as a pharmacist? I'm thinking work experience (residency) is one... Also, how do people deal with the fact that they lose much of what they learn in school?

I agree with you... I'm in my P1 year right now, and our professors are throwing exams at us left and right. It's so much information to learn in such a short time. I get at least 2 exams every week, and the week before my finals, I have 5 exams in one week. For some of the material that must be memorized, I only know it long enough to take the exam and pass. After a week or two of not looking at it, I forget most of it. I'm afraid this will come back to haunt me when it's time for me to take the NAPLEX, and when I practice pharmacy. What can I do to retain all the information I learn in pharmacy school with me for the rest of my life? This is one of my biggest fears for the future. 🙁

 

[sdn1977]

If you're a student....don't worry!

The information you'll need to know, remember & use will be presented to you over and over & over again.

Right now you're learning the basic science stuff. Well...you may not remember the exact steps of the Krebs cycle for example....but you'll learn later that carbohydrate metabolism is intertwined with the Krebs cycle. Then...again...you'll acid-base disorders & phosphate-calcium metabolism & realize that phosphate is a major component for the Krebs cycle. Then you'll get into your clinical years & study disease states which disrupt the Krebs cycle or which requires you to intervene with therapy (tpn for example) which requires you to know the Krebs cycle...

Thats just one example....you'll get multiple examples like this. Repetition helps you to know & keep everything in order. You also have to keep thinking about what you're doing when you dispense.....don't just count & pour - think about what that pt needs from you besides their medication to help them with their disease.

 

[Requiem]

If you're a student....don't worry!

The information you'll need to know, remember & use will be presented to you over and over & over again.

Right now you're learning the basic science stuff. Well...you may not remember the exact steps of the Krebs cycle for example....but you'll learn later that carbohydrate metabolism is intertwined with the Krebs cycle. Then...again...you'll acid-base disorders & phosphate-calcium metabolism & realize that phosphate is a major component for the Krebs cycle. Then you'll get into your clinical years & study disease states which disrupt the Krebs cycle or which requires you to intervene with therapy (tpn for example) which requires you to know the Krebs cycle...

Thats just one example....you'll get multiple examples like this. Repetition helps you to know & keep everything in order. You also have to keep thinking about what you're doing when you dispense.....don't just count & pour - think about what that pt needs from you besides their medication to help them with their disease.

SDN neglected to mention that Mg 2+ is a necessary cofactor as it complexes with ATP (stabilizing the -4 charge)

 

[sdn1977]

SDN neglected to mention that Mg 2+ is a necessary cofactor as it complexes with ATP (stabilizing the -4 charge)

See....you keep using it over & over & over......

 

[trx]

SDN, your words of wisdom are a bit encouraging! I'm a P2 student, and like the P1 student that posted after you, I'm terrified that what I don't remember will come back to haunt me. My school says that they're "reinforcing" the material, but that's only a few concepts. Anyway, maybe I'm just panicking ahead of time.. I'm afraid of what therapeutics (combining everything I've learned and thinking critically) will bring...

Also, I've also been feeling burnt out from the overwhelming amount of material. I feel like a machine: insert information, spit it out, recycle and prepare for new information. This psychological semi-trauma keeps me from retaining the material.

Also, I can't use what I learn since I haven't started on my intern hours. I'm thinking finding a retail place that would allow me to apply what I learned in school? I understand that some pharmacies use students for free labor?!?!

 

[rxlynn]

I've come to the discouraging realization that grades in school do not determine everything (what's the point of getting good grades when I forget most of what I've learned anyways.. not that I mean to..). So, what other alternatives are there to improve oneself as a pharmacist? I'm thinking work experience (residency) is one... Also, how do people deal with the fact that they lose much of what they learn in school?

I have found work experience to be very helpful. I'm only working about 4-6 hours a week right now while school is going on, but I love going to work because it's a chance to use some of the things I'm learning. I am also trying to work on paying attention to the pharmacists that I'm working with and asking them questions. Why did they do certain things? What do they recommend for an OTC situation? I've also had several questions about STD's lately from patients, so I'm thinking of trying to just do a bit of reading about that subject - in other words, I'm trying to match up some learning with actual situations.

Another thing I've noticed - if you read in Drug Topics or something similar about new drugs, or if you read a bit of package inserts, the section about pharmacology will talk about the biochemistry involved and therefore remind you of the concepts you talked about in class. The light bulb really came on for me when I was about 3/4 through biochem class, and one day I picked up a package insert for some reason. I thought - OH - so this is why I'm learning this!!

Final thought - one of my professors has already mentioned that we won't retain everything we are taught, but it is important that we retain the knowledge of how to go get that information - so don't nap through the drug information lecture

 

[trx]

Does it not also depend on where you work? Or does it just depend on what you try to make of it? I really loved my last shadowing experience. My preceptor was very effective in communicating the details of her work (it helped a lot that I was currently learning about 90% of what she was talking about). I'm hoping to gain more of this experience, or like the previous poster said, ask a lot of questions and just be open to learning outside of the classroom.

I agree that what's also important is that you know where to look up information. Up-to-date, Medline/Pubmed, Micromedex have been useful so far... I think that should encompass everything we need to know. Have any of you felt like you're going through the routine but the things you're reading/reviewing have no significance? I am trying to stop myself from doing this, but it's so hard when school's force-feeding so much information into this little brain!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

"It takes an idiot to get As in pharmacy school" - Me

 

[twester]

"It takes an idiot to get As in pharmacy school" - Me

I'm not sure I'd use the word "idiot" for people who get As in pharm school. I do sometimes wonder about my classmates who are doing it. I wonder what their lives look like (of course, it could just be that they're super-bright, who knows?).

The fact that most of my grades are below the average score doesn't say anything about what kind of pharmacist I'll be. I'm so glad to be out of an environment where an 80% on an exam could potentially devestate my future chances at success.

Yay for pharm school!

I'm hoping the answer to the OP's question is "years and years of practice". In that, I agree with WVU. I don't think it's grades that makes an effective pharmacist.

 

[ZpackSux]

You can start by becoming a highly effective person first...

 

[cycloketocaine]

Hahahahahaaa!!!! My dad made me read that book and write a report over it when I was 18.

 

[ZpackSux]

Hahahahahaaa!!!! My dad made me read that book and write a report over it when I was 18.

Your dad is my long lost brother..

 

[ZpackSux]

Hahahahahaaa!!!! My dad made me read that book and write a report over it when I was 18.

Yeah...but did you read the sequel..

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I haven't read *that* book, but for those types of books I've read, they appear to all be brainwashing mechanisms written by some manager who wants a workforce that doesn't question management.

 

[GatorRxGirl]

"It takes an idiot to get As in pharmacy school" - Me

I agree with this. An A only shows you can spit back information on a test. It doesn't show you actually know the information or what to do with it. I'd rather make B's (or C's - eek) and know the applications and whatnot than make A's from just memorizing for tests and then forgetting the information. Of course, I can probably kiss my chances of a residency goodbye not getting all A's. =/

 

[Requiem]

I agree with this. An A only shows you can spit back information on a test. It doesn't show you actually know the information or what to do with it. The students with the best grades in my class couldn't tell you how to apply any of it. I'd rather make B's (or C's - eek) and know the applications and whatnot than make A's from just memorizing for tests and then forgetting the information. Of course, I can probably kiss my chances of a residency goodbye not getting all A's. =/

I don't agree with you and here's why:

Why would knowing enough material for a B enable you to "know the applications" whereas knowing even more material for an A mean "you just memorized and can't apply any of it". If you spend more time studying a subject, why would you know less about the application than someone who studied LESS than you?

Honestly, it seems like you're a bit defensive. Perhaps you're not making all A's and wish you were, or the people who make all A's annoy you and you say they can't apply any of it.

In my class, there certainly are people who spend hours upon hours trying to learn pharmacology, and still barely pass. They also seem to have less retention when a question pops up a month later pertaining to material already tested.

On the other hand, there are others who study a fraction of that time, still socialize and maintain a life outside of school and do better. Perhaps it's just an intrinsic ability to learn material more easily.

Bottom line, I think you made a sweeping generalization that was simply inaccurate.

 

[letjin]

Why would knowing enough material for a B enable you to "know the applications" whereas knowing even more material for an A mean "you just memorized and can't apply any of it". If you spend more time studying a subject, why would you know less about the application than someone who studied LESS than you?

I agree with Requiem...getting A's wouldn't necessarily mean that you can't apply the information that you have. Some subjects like pharmacology, I think you have to understand first + and then memorize that understanding...I read somewhere that your 'understanding' could be forgotten.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

My problem is memorizing things no rational human being would ever memorize. Like when the dude doing cardio in pathophys made us learn to read an EKG. Why the hell would I do that? It's outside of my scope of practice and I'll never use it again. Some people did and got As, I didn't and got a C. Two years later, none of us can decypher an EKG with any reasonable talent but we all know the pharmacology of carvedilol. And why is this? We don't deal with EKGs, but we deal with B-blockers all the f'n time.

Being forced to memorize crap you can just as easily look up on your PDA is one of my main criticism with the educational process. Knowing how to apply stuff is essential. An example, knowing HOW to calculate CrCl is one thing, knowing the method by which your estimate CrCl is called the Cockcroft-Gault is just pointless. I know that's a weak point, but you get my drift.

 

[GatorRxGirl]

I don't agree with you and here's why:

Honestly, it seems like you're a bit defensive. Perhaps you're not making all A's and wish you were, or the people who make all A's annoy you and you say they can't apply any of it.

I'm doing very well, thanks for asking.

 

[acetyl]

I'm doing very well, thanks for asking.

I think Requiem is just a naturally bitter person. Or, it might just be the cold weather up north...

 

[qhal]

1.) Know your stuff. Be up to date on pharmacy issues and medications.
2.) Know how to communicate with patients. Take speech classes!
3.) Treat your co-workers and customers with respect. Interpersonal communication!

Some of the pharmacists today are really bad at customer service.👎
We need to improve on this!

 

[Requiem]

I'm doing very well, thanks for asking.

Pardon the personal stuff, but the rest of my post still stands and you should've acknowledged that instead of disregarding it, as it was the most important part.

I guess that's why some people get B's and C's, just can't pick out the important info.


Acetyl, you have no idea how cold it's been here lately. It was -5 Celsius here (23 for you americans cause I just know you're too lazy to convert 😉 ) plus wind chill dragged it down another 10 degrees so yeah walking around campus was brutal. As well I'm truly not bitter, I just get a kick sometimes out of people's reactions here. If this was in person, i'd take you out for a few Canadian beers - and hey, at least you know they're cold.

 

[ZpackSux]

c'mon guys..what are we talking about.

Everything being equal, I would think getting an A and being able to use the knowledge is much better than getting a B and use the knowledge. And there is nothing wrong with that.

And just because someone gets an A in a subject, it doesn't mean that person doesn't know how to apply it. Perhaps there are people like that.. but at the same time, there are people who get Bs and not able to apply it.

Don't pat yourself on the back and diss people who get As.. at least they put forth an effort and did well on the test. There is nothing wrong with a B. But let's face it.. you wish you had gotten an A.

 

[ZpackSux]

"It takes an idiot to get As in pharmacy school" - Me

Wrong.

 

[GatorRxGirl]

I am doing very well in school so far (no C's, a B on test here or there) and I retain information pretty well. The reason I said that is because there are about 7 or 8 people in my class who will memorize stuff and have no idea what it means. Everyone is different and I guess it just depends on the person. I'm not dissing anyone's posts here so please try and do the same to mine. Thanks.

 

[alwaystired]

I am doing very well in school so far (no C's, a B on test here or there) and I retain information pretty well. The reason I said that is because there are about 7 or 8 people in my class who will memorize stuff and have no idea what it means. One girl in pharmaceutics asked "what's osmosis mean?" 2 weeks after it was covered on the test and she got it right. That was the example I was thinking of. Everyone is different and I guess it just depends on the person. I'm not dissing anyone's posts here so please try and do the same to mine. Thanks.

I know what she is talking about. There are people in pharmacy school with very incomplete understanding of the material, but they memorize every slide given to them and so they can pick out the right answer on the multiple choice test. Imagine this: a student 1/2 year from rotations who made A's and can not remember what guaifenesin does. Yep...does happen.


However, those that get A's and understand with very little effort are out there too.

 

[GatorRxGirl]

I know what she is talking about. There are people in pharmacy school with very incomplete understanding of the material, but they memorize every slide given to them and so they can pick out the right answer on the multiple choice test. Imagine this: a student 1/2 year from rotations who made A's and can not remember what guaifenesin does. Yep...does happen.


However, those that get A's and understand with very little effort are out there too.

Someone gets it - thanks!

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Wrong.

Nuh-uh.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

But let's face it.. you wish you had gotten an A.

But, see, that's the thing, I really don't care.

Now being driven by the desire for a certain letter to appear on a biannually produced piece of paper that will have little effect on my future - to me that's borderline lunacy. All I care about is passing the boards because, ultimately, that will represent how well I truely learned this ****, not the C I pulled in that pointless Public Health course. One of the questions on a test in that course literally was "What is the 800 number for WV poison control?" WTF is that? Why would I want to get a letter on a piece of paper that represents my superior ability to memorize a phone number? Gah.

 

[pharmboy30]

But, see, that's the thing, I really don't care.

Now being driven by the desire for a certain letter to appear on a biannually produced piece of paper that will have little effect on my future - to me that's borderline lunacy. All I care about is passing the boards because, ultimately, that will represent how well I truely learned this ****, not the C I pulled in that pointless Public Health course. One of the questions on a test in that course literally was "What is the 800 number for WV poison control?" WTF is that? Why would I want to get a letter on a piece of paper that represents my superior ability to memorize a phone number? Gah.

i agree, i didn't really care about grades (especially the D in Med Chem, haha) I did ok.
I passed my boards, like he said ^ that's all that matters.
I became an "effective" pharmacist by learning on the job. Granted, I do not have the book smarts and can't spout all of this drug information/moa, etc, but I can get my work done. I know what to look for, learn from previous experience. I get many compliments from the nursing staff and several nurses call and ask for me specifically because they know I will take care of whatever they need.

Gotta figure out what is the best way for you. I wouldn't be concerned about it if you are still a student. worry about your classes first.

 

[sdn1977]

So many posters have had valid points of view.

The issue when you get to real life is not the particular grade you earned in any one class or what your final gpa was.

Zpak, Mountain, Requiem, me nor any of the other pharmacists who practice actually care what grade you got.

What we care about is - can you do your job well. If you got an A in your kinetics/dynamics class, but continually recommend aminoglycoside doses which tip folks into renal failure - your A is meaningless.

If you got a C in your public health course, but you can consistently recommend when to help a parent with an otc medication & when to advise the parent to take the child to the physician - your C is meaningless.

Its all about what you do with what you've learned.

Don't get me wrong - A's are great - I earned plenty!!! If you passed with C's & D's...well, I'm not sure I knew any in my class who did, but if I felt I could trust you by working with you.....it wouldn't bother me.

As a pharmacist, in real practice.....I have actually gone to my dop & said I would no longer clean up a particular pharmacist's mess (kinetics issues). My dept was large, understaffed & I felt my reputation & reliability was being affected by one individual's inability to handle one aspect of the job. This occurred once in all my 30 years of practice & it was handled delicately & appropriately. I have no idea what that person's grades were & at that point they were irrelevant. Neither of us were disciplined - we were just assigned to the areas in which we were best suited, never had personal issues & continued to work well together - again....its a matter of how to be an effective person, as Zpak stated.

It mostly has to do with the impact of what you are doing - not the grades you are getting. Remember - ultimately...you are treating someones child, parent, grandparent, SO......each ones demise or morbidity due to your inadequacy will haunt you & each ones successful outcome will be your strength.

You wil not find pats on the back from your job on a daily basis. Let the gratification of the grade go......your gratification needs to come from the knowledge you, yourself have gained that you have actually learned the material and - most importantly - can use that knowledge effectively - not just now, in front of your classmates....but years and years down the road!

Good luck to you all!