How early to look for jobs?

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Iapetus

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I'm a psych resident coming up on finishing my 3rd year. How early is too early to start looking for jobs? Also, I've been looking at sites like indeed, doccafe, and the APA website, is there any other recommended resources to finding a good position? I'm a little leery to contact a recruiter as I've heard some mixed things about them. Thanks for any guidance or help you can provide!

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I'm a psych resident coming up on finishing my 3rd year. I am in the Midwest and looking to relocate to Texas once I finish training. How early is too early to start looking for jobs? Also, I've been looking at sites like indeed, doccafe, and the APA website, is there any other recommended resources to finding a good position, whether specific to Texas or just in general? I'm a little leery to contact a recruiter as I've heard some mixed things about them. Thanks for any guidance or help you can provide!

Now is wayyyyyyy too early. This is something you do next October/November. Right now, no one is concerned with filling spots for July 2021.
 
Now is wayyyyyyy too early. This is something you do next October/November. Right now, no one is concerned with filling spots for July 2021.


I agree with you but it's a fair question. In IM and FM, it's not uncommon to sign contracts 1.5 years before graduating. I have a few friends in those fields who started looking for jobs beginning of PGY-2 year and signed a contract about halfway through.
 
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I agree with you but it's a fair question. In IM and FM, it's not uncommon to sign contracts 1.5 years before graduating. I have a few friends in those fields who started looking for jobs beginning of PGY-2 year and signed a contract about halfway through.

I didn't say it wasn't a fair question, but I regardless of IM and FM do, it's too early for psych, not only due to timing but also, everyone is in a tailspin trying to figure out how to pay the staff they have right now while keeping everyone safe from harm. Too early.
 
Actually, summer of PY4 is an ok time to start. This year, I'd wait until late summer until covid-19 subsides a bit, travel is a little more feasible, and institutions know where they stand financially. If you're raring to do something right now, you can start doing research and making lists of the major (and minor) psychiatry employers in Texas. Also, Texas is big (no ****), so you might want to do research to decide where specifically you want to be. I wouldn't talk to 3rd party recruiters, but I would talk to alumni of your program and other people in your networks. You PD might be able to tell you if any alumni ended up in Texas. Interpersonal connections will be able to orient you to the many opportunities that aren't posted anywhere, and give you the "real scoop" on a lot of places.
 
Are people expecting a downward trend in psychiatry salaries as a result of the pandemic? Looking 1-2 years down the road, should I be willing/expect to take lower offers that what the average is currently?
 
It depends on your situation. For most people, I'd say start 6-12 months before the end of residency.

I personally started a year out and had a job lined up by the fall. Given what's going on with COVID now, I'm very glad to not be looking for a job right now (which I very well could have been if I started my search in January).

Edit: for your job search resources question...if you know where you want to end up, I would look up the various employers and cold call them. As you can see from my post history, HR was usually a dead end. I would try to get in touch with a department chair or medical director.
 
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Are people expecting a downward trend in psychiatry salaries as a result of the pandemic? Looking 1-2 years down the road, should I be willing/expect to take lower offers that what the average is currently?
I am.
 
It's this a permanent expectation or do you see things getting back to where they are now in 4-5 years?

Psychiatric morbidity and mortality are almost certainly going to rise. Reimbursement is not getting cut, and expanded in ability to be provided. What would make you expect this leads to a permanent or even temporary pay decrease?
 
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Psychiatric morbidity and mortality are almost certainly going to rise. Reimbursement is not getting cut, and expanded in ability to be provided. What would make you expect this leads to a permanent or even temporary pay decrease?

Just seeing hospitals cut pay across the board in the midst of this crisis. I wonder if that will have downstream effects; i.e. they feel they can get away with paying us less in the future.
 
On the flip side of the above thought... with everything moving to telemedicine right now, does anyone see increasing rates in the months/years ahead? Particularly since psych is the best suited specialty for telemedicine.
 
Just seeing hospitals cut pay across the board in the midst of this crisis. I wonder if that will have downstream effects; i.e. they feel they can get away with paying us less in the future.
You bet they will. That's why more doctors will need to reverse the flow of employed positions with large health systems and get back to preserving their autonomy in single specialty or multispecality groups.
 
On the flip side of the above thought... with everything moving to telemedicine right now, does anyone see increasing rates in the months/years ahead? Particularly since psych is the best suited specialty for telemedicine.
Unlikley. Rates are set by insurance contracts. Those are unlikely to change anytime soon. Some employers might have a localized increase in demand for psych services, and pay a higher percentage of your billings (i.e. the take less of a cut). But that's about as good as it'll get.
 
It's this a permanent expectation or do you see things getting back to where they are now in 4-5 years?
There's not really a way to know.
But yes, salaries are currently getting cut because hospitals are not bringing in revenue with elective procedures. The ones I know of that have done it are making it clear that it's a temporary thing, and no doctors who are already employed are going to accept it without a fight. However, telemedicine is not the best solution either in the long term. Insurances vary a lot in how much they pay for telemedicine.
 

Why would you accept a job below the average salary?

It's this a permanent expectation or do you see things getting back to where they are now in 4-5 years?

Literally no one knows. People may guess and 50% of them will be wrong while 50% of them will be right. There isn't a person above who can tell you what you want to hear with any level of certainty.
 
Are people expecting a downward trend in psychiatry salaries as a result of the pandemic? Looking 1-2 years down the road, should I be willing/expect to take lower offers that what the average is currently?

It's hard to say, I know in my region no one is particularly enthused about direct patient contact and those who have retired are retired and those who can call in sick for weeks have done so.

Following the news, it looks like hospital admin don't really think about supply/demand or clinical care when they are hemorrhaging money and they are watching the bottom line by appealing to the expendable physician's humanity and cutting other corners.

Honestly, I think if there is a lesson to be learned its not really about expecting the stable job or being loyal, its about finding the most reasonable situation you can at the moment, staying as long as its tolerable, and leaving when it isn't.
 

Your skills are valuable and you should expect the best circumstances for yourself. The way you talk about yourself makes it sound like you are graduating from cashier school and are about to be crushed by the changing economic wind. This is the type of attitude that will lead your boss to ask you to take one for the team and work on Saturday or Sunday for free.

Honestly if your future employer rescinds your offer or changes the circumstances of your offer without discussing it with you, this is more a reflection of who they are and you should re-evaluate whether it was a good idea to go working for them anyway.
 
I agree with you but it's a fair question. In IM and FM, it's not uncommon to sign contracts 1.5 years before graduating. I have a few friends in those fields who started looking for jobs beginning of PGY-2 year and signed a contract about halfway through.
That is not the norm for FM or IM. Most of us started looking summer going into PGY-3.
 
That is not the norm for FM or IM. Most of us started looking summer going into PGY-3.

I didn’t say it was the norm, I said it wasn’t uncommon. From my friend group, probably 15-20%.
 
It's this a permanent expectation or do you see things getting back to where they are now in 4-5 years?
Ok, so I think there are lots of scenarios, and I'll try to outline the best and the worst.

The best is that psychiatry salaries will take a hit for a limited time, i.e. a year or less. Possibly, programs that were planning to expand will postpone doing so.

The worst case scenario is that health systems that are hemorrhaging money right now (because the lose money on every COVID patient and aren't making money from elective surgeries and such), and when the dust settles they will be so far in the red that even with gov't bailouts they will be forced to either declare bankruptcy or cut services mercilessly. This will probably affect psychiatry because it tends to be a money-loser and isn't as bread and butter as internal medicine or primary care. The result will be that psychiatrists will have to go increasingly into private practice, which is not terrible in itself, but you'd have to find other private practices to join, and some of the ones currently in existence are small businesses that won't survive the crisis. I personally think that going into 100% solo private practice right out of residency is inappropriate and irresponsible. At the same time, many of the people who will need mental health care won't be able to access it due to massive unemployment. Some will be lucky enough to get on medicaid due to low income alone, but medicaid reimbusements and insurance payouts are hardly the same thing.

tl;dr paradoxically decreased demand due to unemployment, greater supply due to large health systems letting psychiatrists go and small private practice groups going out of business = lower salaries, more need to start your own private practice.

Why would you accept a job below the average salary?
I'm not accepting a below average salary now. I'm just saying I would if the field of psychiatry shrinks and/or there's a new, lower normal for psychiatry salaries in a couple of years.

Your skills are valuable and you should expect the best circumstances for yourself. The way you talk about yourself makes it sound like you are graduating from cashier school and are about to be crushed by the changing economic wind.
I live in fear that everything I've worked for will be taken away. It's a thing no one is really immune to, and if you have cataclysmic events in your life, you never really stop looking over your shoulder. The pandemic is just another reason for this fear to grow stronger. That, and the fact that now that I'll be out of residency, the buck will increasingly stop with me.

And I know that if my future employer ruptures the contract I probably didn't want to work for them anyway. To be clear, they've given no indication that anything about my job or my contract will change. I just don't know them directly yet and there's no guarantee that they are in fact trustworthy.

I didn’t say it was the norm, I said it wasn’t uncommon. From my friend group, probably 15-20%.
Rotating through off-service rotations when I was an intern, this was true for the IM, DM, and peds residents I ran into as well.
 
I didn’t say it was the norm, I said it wasn’t uncommon. From my friend group, probably 15-20%.
In the 3 years of my FM residency (so 50 residents) only 1 looked that early. It may be location dependent, but I suspect its a good bit less than 10%.
 
Several of our graduating residents were interviewing sometime in September and October before they graduated in June and signed contracts for a job in November/December.
 
Given my personal experience, I disagree with it being too early to search for a job. I also had plans on relocating so I reached out to places of interest late winter/early spring of PGY3. This allowed some early exchanges regarding timing and planning of interviews given scheduling and travel dynamics. Late spring/early summer expressed my desire to have a contract signed come the holidays. I was offered an interview late summer. It took months for a contract to be written, reviewed, signed, etc. Finally signed during January of PGY4.

I would say for folks looking to relocate, it is NOT too early to put out some feelers. Worse case scenario they ask to touch base in a few months instead. Some places will also offer stipends for PGY4 year. One place I spoke with offered 2K per month (although this should beg further questioning regarding desirability of said position).
 
Given my personal experience, I disagree with it being too early to search for a job. I also had plans on relocating so I reached out to places of interest late winter/early spring of PGY3. This allowed some early exchanges regarding timing and planning of interviews given scheduling and travel dynamics. Late spring/early summer expressed my desire to have a contract signed come the holidays. I was offered an interview late summer. It took months for a contract to be written, reviewed, signed, etc. Finally signed during January of PGY4.

I would say for folks looking to relocate, it is NOT too early to put out some feelers. Worse case scenario they ask to touch base in a few months instead. Some places will also offer stipends for PGY4 year. One place I spoke with offered 2K per month (although this should beg further questioning regarding desirability of said position).

Did you cold call/email hospital systems? I have already been offered a position with a hospital system I rotated through in residency including a stipend to sign early. (System is fairly rural and has difficulty recruiting new physicians.) The offer is very competitive, and I know exactly what I'd be getting myself into as I'm very familiar with the system. I also have been alluded to that I could stay on at another facility where I have some part of my outpatient. Hence, why I kind of wanted to figure out what's available because I don't want to let a good opportunity pass by if I'm unable to find anything comparable where I want to relocate.
 
Did you cold call/email hospital systems? I have already been offered a position with a hospital system I rotated through in residency including a stipend to sign early. (System is fairly rural and has difficulty recruiting new physicians.) The offer is very competitive, and I know exactly what I'd be getting myself into as I'm very familiar with the system. I also have been alluded to that I could stay on at another facility where I have some part of my outpatient. Hence, why I kind of wanted to figure out what's available because I don't want to let a good opportunity pass by if I'm unable to find anything comparable where I want to relocate.
Yes, emails, which resulted in phone conversation. Most places were very responsive and quite grateful to hear from a psychiatrist-to-be.
 
Yes, emails, which resulted in phone conversation. Most places were very responsive and quite grateful to hear from a psychiatrist-to-be.

Who would you contact at these places? Upon graduation, I would ideally line up a couple inpatient jobs. Do one in the morning and one in the afternoon. In your experience cold calling/emailing hospitals, is this sort of thing possible?
 
Who would you contact at these places? Upon graduation, I would ideally line up a couple inpatient jobs. Do one in the morning and one in the afternoon. In your experience cold calling/emailing hospitals, is this sort of thing possible?
The timing is all over the map. I started last May and signed last September. That's considered early. I will be graduating this summer. One of my residency classmates only started interviewing this spring, did two interviews, and has just accepted an offer. Another residency classmate also only did *one* interview a few weeks ago, and got an unofficial offer that they plan to take. Everyone else was interviewing in the fall/winter.

Here's what I did. I made a list of all the large and medium-sized psychiatry employers in the area with the help of google and a residency alum who is in the geographic area where I'm going. The large health systems have their job openings and the email / phone number of an HR person posted. When they had an official position posted that suits you, I just went ahead and applied. If there wasn't something like that, I emailed the HR person with my resume, cover letter, and a brief blurb in the body of the note about who I was and what I was looking for. To second what @Dharma said, everyone seemed very enthused to hear from me.

Lining up a few inpatient jobs may be tricky depending on where you are. Places tend to have non compete clauses or want to be your primary workplace (aka exclusivity clauses). The alternative is a half-time job, but multiple jobs are harder unless it's literally a public health system kind of place than can only afford to hire you for 8 hours a week.
 
Lining up a few inpatient jobs may be tricky depending on where you are. Places tend to have non compete clauses or want to be your primary workplace (aka exclusivity clauses). The alternative is a half-time job, but multiple jobs are harder unless it's literally a public health system kind of place than can only afford to hire you for 8 hours a week.

That makes sense. Although I see posters on here who mention doing this with regularity - I think many of them work as 1099 however. Would the cold contacting be the same, you would just offer to work as a contractor?

Or alternatively, do you find when contacting jobs that inpatient jobs will allow you to leave after you finish your work, thus freeing you to add another sort of job; i.e. private practice outpatient, telepsych, ER jobs?

I'm basically trying to find a way to work two jobs until I get my gargantuan loans paid off and a downpayment saved for a home, however means possible.
 
That makes sense. Although I see posters on here who mention doing this with regularity - I think many of them work as 1099 however. Would the cold contacting be the same, you would just offer to work as a contractor?

Or alternatively, do you find when contacting jobs that inpatient jobs will allow you to leave after you finish your work, thus freeing you to add another sort of job; i.e. private practice outpatient, telepsych, ER jobs?

I'm basically trying to find a way to work two jobs until I get my gargantuan loans paid off and a downpayment saved for a home, however means possible.
I haven’t looked into or seen doing a job for half a day and then leaving to do another job the other half day, though I imagine it can be worked out. You can always ask. In my experience smaller and more public funded places are going to be more flexible on that front. Larger places, especially corporate medicine, will likely have a very specific idea of the job structure and expectations, though still — you don’t know until you ask.
 
I’d wait until this crisis is over to evaluate the damage. Many healthcare companies are struggling. They likely won’t give top rates right now. Many businesses in general are struggling and laying off people. As unemployment rises, fewer have funds for cash pay or even insurance to see anyone. We are in a nationwide recession. As the economy recovers, hopefully everything returns to status quo.
 
I’d wait until this crisis is over to evaluate the damage. Many healthcare companies are struggling. They likely won’t give top rates right now. Many businesses in general are struggling and laying off people. As unemployment rises, fewer have funds for cash pay or even insurance to see anyone. We are in a nationwide recession. As the economy recovers, hopefully everything returns to status quo.
Good point. I was lucky to have negotiated and signed before this ordeal.
 
COVID stuff aside, I do think that it's better to look sooner than later. Depending on the institution, onboarding can take a significant amount of time. If you're thinking about moving, you'll have to keep in mind applying for a new license and the time involved for that.

Some of classmates didn't have jobs set up until February or March, but that was less common. Most of us knew what we were doing - if not already had jobs ready to go - by December or January.
 
An
COVID stuff aside, I do think that it's better to look sooner than later. Depending on the institution, onboarding can take a significant amount of time. If you're thinking about moving, you'll have to keep in mind applying for a new license and the time involved for that.

Some of classmates didn't have jobs set up until February or March, but that was less common. Most of us knew what we were doing - if not already had jobs ready to go - by December or January.
And licensing! That can take a while if you are crossing state lines!
 
Who would you contact at these places? Upon graduation, I would ideally line up a couple inpatient jobs. Do one in the morning and one in the afternoon. In your experience cold calling/emailing hospitals, is this sort of thing possible?
Like meow1985 said, noncompetes will probably be the limiting factor.
 
COVID stuff aside, I do think that it's better to look sooner than later. Depending on the institution, onboarding can take a significant amount of time. If you're thinking about moving, you'll have to keep in mind applying for a new license and the time involved for that.

Some of classmates didn't have jobs set up until February or March, but that was less common. Most of us knew what we were doing - if not already had jobs ready to go - by December or January.
How soon? I am not a psychiatrist, but I plan to start at the beginning of PGY3 (hospital medicine)--like August/September. Is that too early?
 
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