How good can you have it after residency?

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PS2summerdays

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I'm still struggling through the intern year shell-shock. Trying to stay focused on the light(?) at the end of the tunnel. Given graduation from a mid tier residency program, how good can fresh psychiatry attendings have it, doing solely outpatient?

By "good" I mean...hours, work-intensity, and income. Would anyone care to elaborate on their lifestyle doing outpatient work? Is outpatient work (with reasonable hours, i.e. 40/week) easy to come by? Thank you.
 
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Starry-eyed, I started out launching my private practice right out of training. It grew and grew, and with it all the headaches that encroached on my personal time to the point of driving me crazy. Just read the old Fonze thread on SDN of him and his spouse starting their own private practice. It's like battling through the trenches of a war. But maybe you will have a stronger stomach and keener mind. I was very successful, but it's the success that brings tons of new challenges.
 
I work 4/10's doing telepsych for the man. Its technically inpatient work with an outpatient routine (they have appointment times with me). Salary is good, but that's because I asked for the highest number in their range. Work is reasonable however I made sure to ask about the workload before I signed on and because I'm not beholden to a contract I can give a one day notice and leave if I really wanted to (something I'd do only in a worst case scenario).
 
4/10 is sounding really desirable. I feel like I would be very happy with that, especially if it’s telepsych. I don’t really want or need much money - just enough to pay off loans. Thank you guys for sharing your stories.
 
It can get better, don't worry, but no one will hand it to you.

If interested, here is my story. I went the employed route. I work for the VA. I like my patients, but many are seriously ill. High turnover job. I started out working 40 to 50 hours per week outpatient and C/L, including overnight call to the ER two weeks per month. Around 13 outpatients per day, and a couple of consults per day, maybe one 3 a.m. call into the ER most nights on call. Started around $230k. Got burned out, suicidal even, from the sheer amount of bureaucracy, patient acuity, paperwork, and expectations after 5 years. I suppose that makes me weak, but whatever. I didn't let it affect my work. I got a raise to $264k, benefits are good, but I was still in a bad way mentally. My supervisor got the MDs out of doing call, trying to keep MDs from quitting. I was appreciative, but already very burned out, so, I put in a 3 month notice, got another job lined up in another state. Better than the alternative. Got asked what I want to stay, they told me I'm extremely effective in my role and want to keep me. Asked me if I want more money. I said no. I asked for telepsych only, no more consults, no more call. I expected nothing. I got what I asked for. So now I'm doing ok, 40 hours per week telepsych only, 4 days a week, 10 hour days. Much less stress. Then Corona happened few months later. A few colleagues here now have said I'm smart as a result (they don't know about the severe burn out part.) I'm very grateful but I also stay alert. Nothing is guaranteed except change.

you were being straight up abused that’s why you got burnt out..that type of work should’ve paid you 400k per year not 230k
 
you were being straight up abused that’s why you got burnt out..that type of work should’ve paid you 400k per year not 230k
Maybe it was in a big city? Can you tell me about your experience? Can you do 4/10 and get away with 200k?
 
4/10 is sounding really desirable. I feel like I would be very happy with that, especially if it’s telepsych. I don’t really want or need much money - just enough to pay off loans. Thank you guys for sharing your stories.

You want the highest amount of money you can earn for the time/patient load you're willing to work.

I could earn 100k more doing a per diem job but the 'rona made me turn down what I had lined up; I was bummed cause I wanted to pay things off faster. However, even with my primary job I still have money to overpay student loans and overpay my mortgage. I can't dump 20k/month into them like I wanted to, but it's still getting done and I'm generally well rested and not exposed to anyones germs at work. Sometimes the longevity of a good situation is all you need to get things done.
 
I have a solo private practice of ~ 40 face-to-face hours (50-60 patients) per week with a mix of psychotherapy and medication. My hourly rate is about $250/hr.

It's a nice and controllable lifestyle. No bureaucracy. No commute (office is a 5-min walk from my home). No weekends. No late-nights. No boss or co-workers (do everything myself).
 
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Thanks! Does that pay like 200k or so?

I work 4x 9-10hrs and make around 200k which is pretty much universally considered significantly less than I “should be making” so if that is your minimum goal you definitely won’t be disappointed unless covid wrecks society in unpredictable ways.
 
Agree with above that 200K for 40 hours is lower than you should be getting especially if you're in the midwest. That 40 hours is standard unless you're in academics in which case you can get one of those 32 - 36 hour/week gigs for lesser pay but more flexibility.

VA has great benefits but lots of red tape.

Community clinics have lots of really sick people.

Your own private practice will have a lot of hoops and likely be miserable until you can build it up. Someone else's private practice means answering to a boss, but could be fine.

It's all a trade off.

But yes, lots of cush jobs out there. I have a friend doing just locums around the country. Works 1-2 weeks a month and makes around 400K.
 
One of the many reasons why I chose psychiatry is the diversity of potential jobs and career paths. There are so many exciting trajectories.

I’ve worked at an addiction facility with beautiful grounds and amenities. Schedule is whatever I made it every day as long as I saw my patients.

Friends have done telepsych from day 1 and don’t know what a non-home office looks like anymore.

I’ve quit a job so boring that I was essentially paid multiple hours daily to read books.

You can do consult work in hospitals and keep up with whatever other specialists are doing. A friend of mine can sometimes be found doing this in cargo shorts. Admin has attempted to break this, but they realize their position is not one of strength.

Forensic work can land substantial pay and have you doing exciting legal work.

I’m doing private practice currently and really enjoy it. I can refer out or terminate patients that don’t fit my treatment style. i choose my hours. I make changes whenever I want.

This is just the surface.
 
I'll put it this way, I turned down a job working for a reasonable outfit that would have paid 237k plus benefits plus fairly generous retirement matching. This would have been working 40 hours a week (35 contact hours plus 5 hours admin time) doing a mix of OP, IOP, and what amounts to a CRR. No call ever unless I wanted to get paid more and nurses triaging calls.

As is I plan to work about 30 contact hours per week and do significantly better financially working 46 weeks per year, barring a massive shift in reimbursements. Half of that will be private practice hours so quite flexible and if I really need the time for something it's fine as long as I'm good with the money hit.
 
Starry-eyed, I started out launching my private practice right out of training. It grew and grew, and with it all the headaches that encroached on my personal time to the point of driving me crazy. Just read the old Fonze thread on SDN of him and his spouse starting their own private practice. It's like battling through the trenches of a war. But maybe you will have a stronger stomach and keener mind. I was very successful, but it's the success that brings tons of new challenges.

If I recall from older posts of yours, you are doing primarily inpatient these days?
 
Agree with above that 200K for 40 hours is lower than you should be getting especially if you're in the midwest. That 40 hours is standard unless you're in academics in which case you can get one of those 32 - 36 hour/week gigs for lesser pay but more flexibility.

VA has great benefits but lots of red tape.

Community clinics have lots of really sick people.

Your own private practice will have a lot of hoops and likely be miserable until you can build it up. Someone else's private practice means answering to a boss, but could be fine.

It's all a trade off.

But yes, lots of cush jobs out there. I have a friend doing just locums around the country. Works 1-2 weeks a month and makes around 400K.

Is it possible to do something similar, but only on weekends? Would love to find a locums job requiring weekend coverage 1-2 weekends a month to supplement the primary job.
 
You are correct. What's funny is as a resident I wondered who would ever want to do inpatient work. Now, being on the inpatient side, I'm so glad to be here.

I'm guessing the best bet is to line up jobs on your own (don't be an employee), particularly ones that will allow you to see patients and leave when you're done rather than sitting around when you could be doing something else?
 
Is it possible to do something similar, but only on weekends? Would love to find a locums job requiring weekend coverage 1-2 weekends a month to supplement the primary job.

Yes, just sign with a locums company and they will take care of the credentialing. A lot of inpatient psych units need coverage every weekend so you can say you'll only do one or two per month and they'll be thrilled. You can easily net 3-4 grand over an average weekend and depending on your negotiation and/or number of patients and/or whether or not you want to spend the night, I've seen figures as high as 8 - 10 grand a weekend.
 
Yes, just sign with a locums company and they will take care of the credentialing. A lot of inpatient psych units need coverage every weekend so you can say you'll only do one or two per month and they'll be thrilled. You can easily net 3-4 grand over an average weekend and depending on your negotiation and/or number of patients and/or whether or not you want to spend the night, I've seen figures as high as 8 - 10 grand a weekend.

Very helpful, thanks for the info. 3k seemed a bit low, but I guess if you're just rounding and then leaving it's not bad. I was ideally hoping to do a 48 hr weekend, open to traveling to whichever site is paying the most every few weekends or so.
 
Texas can you elaborate more on this? Were you essentially just paid to do nothing?

Some government type jobs in less than ideal locations “need” a PT in-person psychiatrist, but no psych is going to go to such a location for PT pay. The result can be your presence on-site for 10 hours with 4 hours of patient care.
 
You can be rollin like a serious baller . I’m serious. My private practice has been a success. We do TMS and it went from me 1.5 years ago and now 5 doctorate level therapists joined. We will have students here to. Expanded from a 5 room suite to 20 rooms. But it certainly won’t be handed to you. Starting was brutal and painful. Think having a borderline as a patient is hard? Try having one as an employee!! And she slept with another employee here. Wtf. Fired both their asses. Figure out your strengths and what works for you. I love running a business and have a little bit of a knack for it. Whereas some colleagues preferred the employed route. But you play your business smart, you could exceed 400k on a part time schedule and grow it well, it can generate income for your future generations. It can also become the force that ironically tears your kids apart due to greed...but that’s my own dark humored catastrophic thinking
 
You can be rollin like a serious baller . I’m serious. My private practice has been a success. We do TMS and it went from me 1.5 years ago and now 5 doctorate level therapists joined. We will have students here to. Expanded from a 5 room suite to 20 rooms. But it certainly won’t be handed to you. Starting was brutal and painful. Think having a borderline as a patient is hard? Try having one as an employee!! And she slept with another employee here. Wtf. Fired both their asses. Figure out your strengths and what works for you. I love running a business and have a little bit of a knack for it. Whereas some colleagues preferred the employed route. But you play your business smart, you could exceed 400k on a part time schedule and grow it well, it can generate income for your future generations. It can also become the force that ironically tears your kids apart due to greed...but that’s my own dark humored catastrophic thinking

If you want to see real ballers, go to the pain medicine forum, they have a thread about ballers over there, several of them are clearing 1.5M haha it’s insane
 
If you want to see real ballers, go to the pain medicine forum, they have a thread about ballers over there, several of them are clearing 1.5M haha it’s insane
Yikes. You probably have to ball pretty hard for that.

I just want a relaxed life with low stress. 200k is beyond enough to live off comfortably, even with massive student debt burden. But kudos to those who strive for even more.
 
Yikes. You probably have to ball pretty hard for that.

I just want a relaxed life with low stress. 200k is beyond enough to live off comfortably, even with massive student debt burden. But kudos to those who strive for even more.

Yeah if you actually read the thread the guys who end up clearing that much are basically running patients through a procedure factory...there’s a big back and forth about exactly how ethical you’re getting when you get to that level of throughput. Which is probably pretty ethically loose TBH.
 
Yeah if you actually read the thread the guys who end up clearing that much are basically running patients through a procedure factory...there’s a big back and forth about exactly how ethical you’re getting when you get to that level of throughput. Which is probably pretty ethically loose TBH.
Well, ethically run practice here. We have a reputation as being evidence based and super strict on controlled substances. High quality doctorate level therapists, neuropsych testing, and we teach students. The secret is in the collections. Especially from patients. Collect at time of service, have an upfront discussion with patient about what they will owe. Refer out if needed for whatever reason due to financial issues. You make WAY more with tight and timely collections. Don't think I'd hit the million mark, but who needs to?

Although, now that I think of it, it could be possible to hit the million mark in 10+ years. But...I don't know if I wanna manage that much lol.
 
I work 4x 9-10hrs and make around 200k which is pretty much universally considered significantly less than I “should be making” so if that is your minimum goal you definitely won’t be disappointed unless covid wrecks society in unpredictable ways.

Why so low?
 
Did I mention now my practice is also primarily comprised of young attractive female providers AND they do good work 😉👍?! That outta drive more traffic. I'll put jazz music and fancy seltzer water to set the tone too. Hmm...this is starting to deviate from the tone of a psychiatric practice. But anyways, back on the topic of making a living. It can be super fun to run a business. First priority, provide a high quality service, in other words, stick to our evidence based taught methods. But, it doesn't hurt to add a little to drive up traffic. Like...attractive people. :laugh:
 
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Did I mention now my practice is also primarily comprised of young attractive female providers AND they do good work 😉👍?! That outta drive more traffic. I'll put jazz music and fancy seltzer water to set the tone too. Hmm...this is starting to deviate from the tone of a psychiatric practice.

r u a male? R u married?
 
I'm a heterosexual female. lol. And a good chunk of our providers just by chance happen to have blonde hair and blue eyes. :laugh:

you’re a heterosexual female who started a psych practice and expanded it to multiple providers? Nice, very impressive, r u married?
 
you’re a heterosexual female who started a psych practice and expanded it to multiple providers? Nice, very impressive, r u married?
Yup, married, with 1 child. there's a learning curve to the billing, but it is totally worth it to know it inside out. Once you do, that's where the income is optimized. And you get paid the full amt you deserve per unit of work. Most major healthcare systems don't even have good schedule optimization with good patients (so not a panel full of patients that will burn you out), minimal open slots, with good collections. If they had those pieces, they could easily pay psychiatrists 450k salaries. I did the math, 99213 on average in WI pays $78 and 90833 around the $50-$90 range. Do the math, the money is being lost somewhere. And if my experience with hiring and releasing employees who worked the desk and did the billing is reflective of the population of this profession...I can see where.
 
Yup, married, with 1 child. there's a learning curve to the billing, but it is totally worth it to know it inside out. Once you do, that's where the income is optimized. And you get paid the full amt you deserve per unit of work. Most major healthcare systems don't even have good schedule optimization with good patients (so not a panel full of patients that will burn you out), minimal open slots, with good collections. If they had those pieces, they could easily pay psychiatrists 450k salaries. I did the math, 99213 on average in WI pays $78 and 90833 around the $50-$90 range. Do the math, the money is being lost somewhere. And if my experience with hiring and releasing employees who worked the desk and did the billing is reflective of the population of this profession...I can see where.

So a 90833 + 99223 would on average pay 140... And these can be done in 20 minutes so you should be able to pull 350/hr if average 2.5 pt an HR. Does that sound about right?
 
Why so low?

This is really two separate questions.

1- why does this job pay so low?

Because large portion of my patients are not insured and have no ability to pay, they also tend to be sick so require a lot of time/coordination so can’t do high volume and still provide good care.

2- why are you working a job that pays that low?

That’s tougher, I ask myself that a lot. Combination of feeling like this is my very comfortable version of doctors w/o borders or whatever we thought about as saving world as premeds, good schedule/holidays/no call, location and few other factors. Also in the scheme of life, 200k is objectively a lot of money even if I could make more. Will I work there forever? Probably not, but for now I’m happy.
 
This is really two separate questions.

1- why does this job pay so low?

Because large portion of my patients are not insured and have no ability to pay, they also tend to be sick so require a lot of time/coordination so can’t do high volume and still provide good care.

2- why are you working a job that pays that low?

That’s tougher, I ask myself that a lot. Combination of feeling like this is my very comfortable version of doctors w/o borders or whatever we thought about as saving world as premeds, good schedule/holidays/no call, location and few other factors. Also in the scheme of life, 200k is objectively a lot of money even if I could make more. Will I work there forever? Probably not, but for now I’m happy.

you’re the reason pay is low for others, if they can exploit one person they can exploit us all eventually
 
you’re the reason pay is low for others, if they can exploit one person they can exploit us all eventually

That’s a bit of an extreme take, if taking that stance could just as easily argue on the other side that I’m actually the one exploiting society by expecting to get paid by your taxes to provide services to people who have no intention of paying me.
 
Yup, married, with 1 child. there's a learning curve to the billing, but it is totally worth it to know it inside out. Once you do, that's where the income is optimized. And you get paid the full amt you deserve per unit of work. Most major healthcare systems don't even have good schedule optimization with good patients (so not a panel full of patients that will burn you out), minimal open slots, with good collections. If they had those pieces, they could easily pay psychiatrists 450k salaries. I did the math, 99213 on average in WI pays $78 and 90833 around the $50-$90 range. Do the math, the money is being lost somewhere. And if my experience with hiring and releasing employees who worked the desk and did the billing is reflective of the population of this profession...I can see where.
The money is not lost. How else can Big Box Shops support their admin heavy bureaucracy? HR departments need support to attack their employees who raise important issues of quality or harassment in the ranks. The health system lawyers need money to continue to contract out the bigger cases that keep piling up from their 'bad apple employees' who actual have very valid cases - so let's pay the 700hr to Big Firm to make this go away. Bad service expansions or practice acquisitions need to come at the expense of some one. Who else is going to fund the raises for ARNPs as they are now unionizing with the floor RNs?
 
If insurance based PP is paying $350/hr (based on average reimbursement of most common codes) how the hell isn't every psychiatrist out there killing it making 500k a year working 4 days a week?
 
Yup, married, with 1 child. there's a learning curve to the billing, but it is totally worth it to know it inside out. Once you do, that's where the income is optimized. And you get paid the full amt you deserve per unit of work. Most major healthcare systems don't even have good schedule optimization with good patients (so not a panel full of patients that will burn you out), minimal open slots, with good collections. If they had those pieces, they could easily pay psychiatrists 450k salaries. I did the math, 99213 on average in WI pays $78 and 90833 around the $50-$90 range. Do the math, the money is being lost somewhere. And if my experience with hiring and releasing employees who worked the desk and did the billing is reflective of the population of this profession...I can see where.

What insurance panel is paying $90 for a 90833 add-on...are you billing the world's best insurance?
 
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It takes many months to ramp up to filling 8 hrs a day of seeing patients. Of those, around 5 to 6hrs will be actually seeing patients because of no-shows, delays, and time to write notes. That puts you, with 4 weeks vacation a year, at around $400K. You need an office manager, so subtract $50K. You need a biller, that's 5% to 10%. You're down to $320K. Still a great income. But then there's overhead. Rent, supplies, etc.

Ramping up with the proper marketing and networking takes time.
 
If insurance based PP is paying $350/hr (based on average reimbursement of most common codes) how the hell isn't every psychiatrist out there killing it making 500k a year working 4 days a week?
Shufflin nailed it. No guarantee you have well of patients to infinitely draw from immediately, and this beast called overhead. Mine with 0.5FTE employee and all the other stuff comes out to 72-80K per year. Fixed cost.
 
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