How many months before the end of your training did you find a job?

[Nilf]

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Members don't see this ad.

And how many months did you look for a job?

 

[yaah]

First contact about "come talk to us about a position" = 15 months I think
Job offer = 9 months prior.

Many jobs are offered closer to the start date than 9 months prior, particularly academic jobs which are often about 6 months ahead of time. 9 months might be average for private jobs, maybe closer to 12 for some.

 

[sohsie]

And how many months did you look for a job?

Started looking in August. Job offer in November. Accepted in December.

 

[BierstiefelAndy]

Started looking in August. Job offer in November. Accepted in December.

About the same for me. Started sending out CVs in July. Interviews during October & November. Job offer in November. Accepted in late November.

 

[gungho]

initial contact about 18 months prior to end of residency, offer and signed contract 2 months into fellowship.

 

[Cloaca]

Whaaa? OMG, I guess I had better get on that. Seriously, 18 months BEFORE you were finished with residency, so, like in your 2nd or 3rd year?? And based on what you all are saying, for a one year fellowship, you basically have to start your job search before you even start fellowship or right at the beginning? Is that correct?

 

[gungho]

Whaaa? OMG, I guess I had better get on that. Seriously, 18 months BEFORE you were finished with residency, so, like in your 2nd or 3rd year?? And based on what you all are saying, for a one year fellowship, you basically have to start your job search before you even start fellowship or right at the beginning? Is that correct?

my post is a little misleading-my initial contact was by a group that saw my info on a website-we just had informal talks until may of my 4th year, when i found another opportunity, had several interviews between then and august of my fellowship year with the two groups and made a choice between two offers.

 

[yaah]

Whaaa? OMG, I guess I had better get on that. Seriously, 18 months BEFORE you were finished with residency, so, like in your 2nd or 3rd year?? And based on what you all are saying, for a one year fellowship, you basically have to start your job search before you even start fellowship or right at the beginning? Is that correct?

Pretty much - a lot of times your job search will happen right at the beginning of your fellowship before you have much experience in it. As objectionable as this is, there are lots of things to do in starting a new job (paperwork, credentialling, probably moving) so it takes more than a month or two.

The bigger problem is the fellowship timeline - you have to start thinking about fellowships about 2 years before it starts, with most applications 18 months prior. In many cases people have minimal exposure to their "chosen" field before they have to pick it.

 

[mrjames]

job market is not good at this time amybe anytime for pathology

 

[yaah]

We have many other threads on that subject - if you have specific experience or knowledge, please post it in the other thread(s). This blanket statement has been made numerous times very recently and is unhelpful without further qualification at this point.

 

[dl2dp2]

We have many other threads on that subject - if you have specific experience or knowledge, please post it in the other thread(s). This blanket statement has been made numerous times very recently and is unhelpful without further qualification at this point.

from what i heard, every academic dept in the country has an opening. sure the salary in academia isn't great, but you'll be able to get a job somewhere. the mean salary in path is ~220-250k, and to find a job to start that gives you that is probably pretty hard as I can imagine. also, path is 40% IMG, and i bet you AMGs get the first dibs of the better jobs before the IMGs.

so yeah, maybe path isn't as marketable as rads, but if you are AMG and from a good program, it sounds like jobs are still aplenty, esp. in academia. And from the information on this thread, it only confirmed this.

Please someone tell me that i'm right, as I'm strongly considering path as a career right now.

 

[docbiohazard]

Mmmm ~54 months before the end of my residency training... (2-3 year fully supported research track position)... 😀

 

[BU Pathology]

from what i heard, every academic dept in the country has an opening. sure the salary in academia isn't great, but you'll be able to get a job somewhere. the mean salary in path is ~220-250k, and to find a job to start that gives you that is probably pretty hard as I can imagine. also, path is 40% IMG, and i bet you AMGs get the first dibs of the better jobs before the IMGs.

so yeah, maybe path isn't as marketable as rads, but if you are AMG and from a good program, it sounds like jobs are still aplenty, esp. in academia. And from the information on this thread, it only confirmed this.

Please someone tell me that i'm right, as I'm strongly considering path as a career right now.

There are jobs available and not only in academics. A 2007 article showed that a number of private practice and academic organizations hired in the previous year, and planned to hire in the upcoming year (Adequacy of pathology resident training for employment: a survey report from the Future of Pathology Task Group, Arch Pathology and Lab Medicine, 2077:131, 545).

There is a concern that we are not training enough pathologists, rather than the converse. I would strongly encourage you to look closely at pathology, especially if you have an interest in an investigative career.

Dan Remick
Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center

 

[scurred]

from what i heard, every academic dept in the country has an opening. sure the salary in academia isn't great, but you'll be able to get a job somewhere. the mean salary in path is ~220-250k, and to find a job to start that gives you that is probably pretty hard as I can imagine. also, path is 40% IMG, and i bet you AMGs get the first dibs of the better jobs before the IMGs.

so yeah, maybe path isn't as marketable as rads, but if you are AMG and from a good program, it sounds like jobs are still aplenty, esp. in academia. And from the information on this thread, it only confirmed this.

Please someone tell me that i'm right, as I'm strongly considering path as a career right now.

I do not believe there is a preference of AMG vs IMG in terms of jobs. Much of it has to do with what program you graduated from, your training, and how well you communicate...Of course, there are plenty of IMGs that do not speak english as a first language and that may be a negative towards their job hunt, but if it isn't...then there isn't a problem

In the end, it comes down to making a diagnosis and your accuracy in that...Nobody wants an AMG that can't make a correct diagnosis consistently

Also, many IMGs from what I have heard have to be careful as to where they choose their jobs, as many were not born in the US and have to work in underserved areas in order to fulfill a requirement...if they don't fulfill this, they have to go back to their home country and work for a couple years. Anyway, there is a lot of competition for some of these underserved areas from true FMGs, which might extend the length of their job hunt

 

[sohsie]

...

In the end, it comes down to making a diagnosis and your accuracy in that...Nobody wants an AMG that can't make a correct diagnosis consistently

...

Being able to make an accurate diagnosis, while extremely important, is only one factor in what a group looks for. You have to be efficient. You have to work well with the group. And most importantly, you have to know how to interact with the clients. This isn't just about communications over the phone. It is about issuing a report that is succinct, readable, and has all of the pertinent information easily accessible. It is about tailoring your reports to your clients needs. You would be surprised about what things in a report will tick off clinicians. Just like a surgeon has his or her favorite instruments, they have their favorite report styles, and you have to be able to tailor your work accordingly. You have to know how to say "Your margins are inadequate" or "You didn't sample well enough" in a way that gets the message across without being haughty or condescending.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head.

 

[bioguy]

Also, many IMGs from what I have heard have to be careful as to where they choose their jobs, as many were not born in the US and have to work in underserved areas in order to fulfill a requirement...if they don't fulfill this, they have to go back to their home country and work for a couple years. Anyway, there is a lot of competition for some of these underserved areas from true FMGs, which might extend the length of their job hunt

Is there an official consolidated list of underserved areas??? I'd benefit from this.

 

[Gut Shot]

job market is not good at this time amybe anytime for pathology

mrjames for CAP President!!!

 

[deschutes]

Is there an official consolidated list of underserved areas??? I'd benefit from this.

As you probably know, J-1 pathology residents obtain a waiver of the two-year home country residency requirement via the VA system (Interested Government Agency Waiver) or finding a position in an underserved area.

http://www.3rnet.org is what most J-1 physicians use to find underserved areas. Occasionally, a pathology position will pop up there. A couple of J-1 pathology residents I've known have found jobs through cold-calling hospitals and asking to speak to their pathology department.

 

[Gut Shot]

If anyone is looking for a JOB, feel free to check these links with opportunity for healthcare workers...

---removed reference to deleted post-------

Thanks, but that job site for nurses and allied health professionals. Nobody in here except us MD/DO/MD, PhD chickens.

 

[LADoc00]

this isnt that helpful of an analysis, obviously the tighter the geographic restrictions the longer the search. I was willling to go literally anywhere including Alaska. I interviewed at roughly 22 practices. I started looking for job opportunities 3 weeks into my internship (applications into BCG, Baine, McKinsey etc my first year during the rise of the dotcoms to see if I could bail out of training and still make bank) and I never stopped looking for new jobs until I founded my own company.

 

[bioguy]

As you probably know, J-1 pathology residents obtain a waiver of the two-year home country residency requirement via the VA system (Interested Government Agency Waiver) or finding a position in an underserved area.

http://www.3rnet.org is what most J-1 physicians use to find underserved areas. Occasionally, a pathology position will pop up there. A couple of J-1 pathology residents I've known have found jobs through cold-calling hospitals and asking to speak to their pathology department.

Thanks for the info, deschutes.

 

[green mantis]

I've got 3 months left before I graduate, & I haven't received any offers yet. I started looking late last year. I primarily focused on positions in SoCal, so that may be a reason for the lack of responses.

On a side note, does anyone have any experience applying for academic positions? I've applied to several, but none of them have gotten back to me. Is the whole process just slower when it comes to academia?


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

Academia is definitely slower. They often are required to advertise the position + interview multiple people + clear other hurdles. Academic jobs often are filled less than a year prior to start date.

 

[Verocay]

I've got 3 months left before I graduate, & I haven't received any offers yet. I started looking late last year. I primarily focused on positions in SoCal, so that may be a reason for the lack of responses.

I'm in the same situation as you...actually less than 3 months and zero offers. I started looking in October and have gone on several interviews but lost out to people with 'experience'. I also had one of the groups that I interviewed with not hire anyone due to someone deciding that they weren't going to retire after all.

Due to my wife being a 2nd year surgery resident, I am geographically restricted. I am an AMG with a decent C.V. Several faculty made calls on my behalf only to be told that they are just not hiring right now. I've talked to recruiters who all say the same thing...no one is hiring UNLESS you are willing to move.

The pathology job market stinks when you start to compare it. Seriously, stop posting statistics and take 5 minutes to compare the number of posted pathology jobs to any other specialty. Spend some time talking to people who are about to graduate from different specialties and ask about the loan repayment plans and signing bonuses they are offered. We should not have to move to a different state or even a different large city to find a job, but many of us do...to me, that is the sign of a very weak job market.

 

[exPCM]

I wish the best to verocay and green mantis. I hope you are both able to get a position.
I and a number of attendings on this site (LaDoc, Raider, BigD, Pathwrath) have discussed how bad the the pathology job market is. However we often see replies from a few people on this forum who have been taken in by the pathology ministers of propaganda (Dr. Fred Silva - USCAP and Dr. James Crawford - CAP) and continue to argue against this reality. The mere existence of client billing and pod labs should be clear evidence to anyone how bad the pathology job market is. Without an oversupply of pathologists these abusive practices could not exist since pathologists not agree to work at such discounted rates in a job market where pathologists were in high demand like radiologists.
Any med student or resident who reads this forum regularly can not say they have not been warned. The CAP and USCAP have proven they lack the will to try and correct this situation. Many of the leaders in pathology benefit from the oversupply since they can hire new grads at a lower pay scale due to the oversupply. We faced a total job meltdown in the late 1990s with many unemployed pathologists ( http://members.tripod.com/~philgmh/CIPJM.html ) but the CAP and USCAP did not seriously address workforce planning then and they are not doing so now. The number of residents/fellows graduating per year is actually now much higher than it was a decade ago. In what other field do you see people doing 2 and 3 fellowships in order to land a job? In what other field is the primary certification considered inadequate and fellowships practically mandatory to try and compete in the job market? It is sad to read your stories but you are not alone. There are many others in pathologists struggling to get jobs who do not post here. Just talk to a recruiter at Comphealth, etc. and ask how many desperate pathologists call them every day trying to find work.
What really should be done as a first step for the good of the field is for many small marginal pathology residency programs to be eliminated, particularly those with below average boards passing rates among their graduates. The ACGME could easily identify these subpar programs and pull their accreditation if they had the will. The programs will not police themselves since the academic attendings do not want to give up their cheap resident labor supply and hire more expensive PAs (who are not funded by Medicare like residents).
To Verocay and green mantis: I thank you for posting your stories here as I know that others are reluctant to share their difficulties in a forum like this. However I applaud you because by posting your stories you also help to bring this issue out in the open. Again I hope you both land a job soon.

P.S. I also agree with the short post of Mr. James (who it looks like has made a total of only 3 posts on this site but has decided to chime in on this issue) above. Mr. James, can you post further on your experiences?

 

[asmallchild]

I wish the best to verocay and green mantis. I hope you are both able to get a position.
I and a number of posters on this site (LaDoc, BigD, Pathwrath) have discussed how bad the the pathology job market is. However we often see replies from a few people on this forum who have been taken in by the pathology ministers of propaganda (Dr. Fred Silva - USCAP and Dr. James Crawford - CAP) and continue to argue against this reality. The mere existence of client billing and pod labs should be clear evidence to anyone how bad the pathology job market is. Without an oversupply of pathologists these abusive practices could not exist since pathologists not agree to work at such discounted rates in a job market where pathologists were in high demand like radiologists.
Any med student or resident who reads this forum regularly can not say they have not been warned. The CAP and USCAP have proven they lack the will to try and correct this situation. Many of the leaders in pathology benefit from the oversupply since they can hire new grads at a lower pay scale due to the oversupply. We faced a total job meltdown in the late 1990s with many unemployed pathologists but the CAP and USCAP did not seriously address workforce planning and they are not doing so now. The number of residents/fellows graduating per year is now much higher than it was a decade ago. In what other field do you see people doing 2 and 3 fellowships in order to land a job? In what other field is the primary certification considered inadequate and fellowships practically mandatory to try and compete in the job market? It is sad to your stories but you are not alone. There are many others in pathology struggling to get jobs who do not post here. Just talk to a recruiter at Comphealth, etc. and ask how many desperate pathologists call then every day trying to find work.

😱 That's scary stuff!

 

[GlassPusherJack]

I don't think this warning is reached by the majority of med students who go into pathology before they submit their ERAS applications. The pathologists I know are very encouraging about the field and how much they love it. Sometimes a third year does not think to ask about a thing like job availability. As a resident, the warning would definitely be too late. Unless you are willing to give up pathology and go do a residency in some other field.

In Florida, many of the graduating FELLOWS (in desirable subspecialties) are having difficulty finding jobs without having to relocate to cities more than 3 hours away. Which is not possible as these people are around 30 years old with families to consider.

[I wish the best to verocay and green mantis. I hope you are both able to get a position.
I and a number of posters on this site (LaDoc, BigD, Pathwrath) have discussed how bad the the pathology job market is. However we often see replies from a few people on this forum who have been taken in by the pathology ministers of propaganda (Dr. Fred Silva - USCAP and Dr. James Crawford - CAP) and continue to argue against this reality. The mere existence of client billing and pod labs should be clear evidence to anyone how bad the pathology job market is. Without an oversupply of pathologists these abusive practices could not exist since pathologists not agree to work at such discounted rates in a job market where pathologists were in high demand like radiologists.
Any med student or resident who reads this forum regularly can not say they have not been warned. The CAP and USCAP have proven they lack the will to try and correct this situation. Many of the leaders in pathology benefit from the oversupply since they can hire new grads at a lower pay scale due to the oversupply. We faced a total job meltdown in the late 1990s with many unemployed pathologists but the CAP and USCAP did not seriously address workforce planning and they are not doing so now. The number of residents/fellows graduating per year is now much higher than it was a decade ago. In what other field do you see people doing 2 and 3 fellowships in order to land a job? In what other field is the primary certification considered inadequate and fellowships practically mandatory to try and compete in the job market? It is sad to your stories but you are not alone. There are many others in pathology struggling to get jobs who do not post here. Just talk to a recruiter at Comphealth, etc. and ask how many desperate pathologists call then every day trying to find work.]

 

[listeriaismfb]

As a medical student, I can tell you I was high on the typical concoction of altruism and hope admixed with ego. Warnings fall on deaf ears.

 

[docbiohazard]

There's no other speciality I'd rather be doing. Not one.

 

[Verocay]

There's no other speciality I'd rather be doing. Not one.

That's exactly how I feel. If I wasn't doing pathology, I probably wouldn't be a doctor.

However, I also feel very strongly that the job market for pathology is extremely skewed toward the employer, not the employee. I'm not saying that our first job offer should include bags of cash and Ferraris, but we should have some say as to location and compensation. Many other specialties get fairly decent signing bonuses...whereas pathologists can barely negotiate for their group to pay for their moves. When you look at the job ads, they essentially demand experience and fellowships. There is no other specialty that requires as many bells and whistles on top of board certification as pathology does.

I also know that the job market is cyclical and I am finishing at a bad time. But even the best pathology job market is not as good as the worst job market in other specialties.

 

[Thrombus]

You need to talk to Dan Remick, Chair, BU.

He can direct you to a website to read about how wrong you are with a powerpoint presentation to boot.

Disregard reality. Regard the website powerpoint presentation.

There are also plenty of positions for Lecturer at State U. where if you work really hard and kiss a lot of butt, you may one day become an associate professor and make 6 figures!

 

[Verocay]

Disregard reality. Regard the website powerpoint presentation.

If the powerpoint presentation is as awesome as you say, I will immediately send it to Sallie Mae in lieu of my student loan payments.

 

[exPCM]

In my group we actually have a PA who is a board certified pathologist. He really wanted to stay in our city (large city - over 1 million in metropolitan area) for family reasons but could not find a job around here as a pathologist. We hired him as a PA (and at the salary of a PA) and he is doing a great job in that role. However it really illustrates how tough the job market is and makes me thankful that I have a job. I also remember LADOC posting sometime back that when he advertised for a PA position he had multiple pathologists apply for the job.

P.S. Can a moderator please delete the multiple posts below?

 

[listeriaismfb]

There's no other speciality I'd rather be doing. Not one.

Me neither, I love this work.

It is unrealisitic to think that any medical student is going to modify their specialty choice based on anonymous hot air in a forum.

 

[Verocay]

It is unrealisitic to think that any medical student is going to modify their specialty choice based on anonymous hot air in a forum

Every medical student and lower level resident that reads this post is thinking the same thing: "I'm different. There must be something wrong with him. I'll easily find a job." It is what I thought when I read posts like this in the past.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

Every medical student and lower level resident that reads this post is thinking the same thing: "I'm different. There must be something wrong with him. I'll easily find a job." It is what I thought when I read posts like this in the past.

..or get into academics or hope for the economy to get better or get ready to move to the middle of nowhere..

 

[listeriaismfb]

Every medical student and lower level resident that reads this post is thinking the same thing: "I'm different. There must be something wrong with him. I'll easily find a job." It is what I thought when I read posts like this in the past.

Right on! I remember thinking it was just the FMGs that had the problems, or just the crappy slacker residents from so-so programs. Funny how we can be misled by ego "Not me, I'm special!" We're all special!

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation Verocay & I hope something comes your way soon.

 

[Pathwrath]

Every medical student and lower level resident that reads this post is thinking the same thing: "I'm different. There must be something wrong with him. I'll easily find a job." It is what I thought when I read posts like this in the past.

Aren't they still reassuring you guys with the imminent retirement/death of all those thousands and thousands of geriatric pathologists? That was the big lie/line back in the day.

 

[mcfaddens]

Aren't they still reassuring you guys with the imminent retirement/death of all those thousands and thousands of geriatric pathologists? That was the big lie/line back in the day.

Ive heard that line many times, but the problem is that many of the geriatric pathologists are immortals (like the highlander) and cannot die unless decapitated by another immortal in battle. I wish the best of luck to Verocay and green mantis, I was fortunate enough to secure a job some time ago however the celebration was short lived as soon as i began to receive the monsterous student loan bills in the mail. The ammount of stress in the whole situation is unreal, with or without a job.

 

[listeriaismfb]

Ive heard that line many times, but the problem is that many of the geriatric pathologists are immortals (like the highlander) and cannot die unless decapitated by another immortal in battle.

Kurgan is my all time favorite badass, can we hire him to do the dirty work?

To get back to the point of the thread...

I realized in December that my current situation is not sustainable, so in January I put out tons of CVs in 3 states and got one offer. Time from the start of the job hunt to the handshake & gentleman's agreement was about 3 months. The house won't go on the market until I see something in black & white, but it's a pretty safe bet that we're moving again.

 

[Nilf]

In my group we actually have a PA who is a board certified pathologist. He really wanted to stay in our city (large city - over 1 million in metropolitan area) for family reasons but could not find a job around here as a pathologist. We hired him as a PA (and at the salary of a PA) and he is doing a great job in that role. However it really illustrates how tough the job market is and makes me thankful that I have a job. I also remember LADOC posting sometime back that when he advertised for a PA position he had multiple pathologists apply for the job.

P.S. Can a moderator please delete the multiple posts below?

Holy crap it's some scary stuff you're posting about... But it confirms my own observations.

 

[2121115]

In my group we actually have a PA who is a board certified pathologist. He really wanted to stay in our city (large city - over 1 million in metropolitan area) for family reasons but could not find a job around here as a pathologist. We hired him as a PA (and at the salary of a PA) and he is doing a great job in that role.

DAY-UM, man! That is cold as hell dude.

There but for the grace of god go I... and stuff.

 

[Arctic Char]

There's no other speciality I'd rather be doing. Not one.

word.👍

 

[exPCM]

DAY-UM, man! That is cold as hell dude.

There but for the grace of god go I... and stuff.

Since I am not one of the partners I do not personally make the decisions on hiring/firing. Are you saying that we should have just told him no and picked a non-pathologist PA instead?

 

[2121115]

Are you saying they should have just told him no and picked a non-pathologist PA instead?

Yes. They should just cut him loose and let/make him move on. That is just a sad sad story. Imagine the way that guy feels coming to work everyday and mashing fat for lymph nodes in a colon. Wow.

 

[yaah]

I am not totally sure what you all's goal is here - is part of it to dissuade people from pursuing pathology? Because anyone who doesn't really want to do pathology shouldn't be doing it anyway. And if you want to do it, you should do it. No one should EVER take as gospel truth the rantings of anonymous internet forum posters - obviously it is ok to listen and evaluate, but you need to talk to real people too. And if you really like pathology, discounting it as a career choice because of hot air and blather is pretty reprehensible (of course, so is picking a career primarily because of peripheral benefits). If your goal is to persuade people about the "real truth" about the job market, then fine, but you also have to acknowledge that many people don't have a huge problem with the job market. I believe you all when you say there are serious issues with the job market - although as we keep saying, a lot of that depends on many variables and may not apply to any one individual.

I suspect that many people who were planning on hiring have tabled that due to the economy and declining reimbursements, but I am not totally sure about that. If so, who knows when that will start back up again. I do agree that the myth of the "imminent retiring hoards of pathologists" is vastly overblown. I am trying to think of pathologists who voluntarily retired in the past few years, and I can think of only one. I know of a handful of others who were forced out by hospital management due to their old-fashioned behavior, and others who simply died.

And exPCM - it is REALLY time to stop posting the tripod link. I also hear there's something out there called the internet which is going to revolutionize the world.

And as for your comment about people being "taken in by the ministers of propaganda," to be honest, that is pretty disingenuous. If you are referring to me, it's flat out wrong - I keep posting (which you probably keep ignoring) that I understand the job market is not great, but it is variable, and the vast majority of residents I talk to (and I have talked to a great many) say they do not have huge trouble finding a good job. It is VERY hard to equate my own personal experience and encounters with what I see on this site. I understand many people have difficulties - I know a few personally - and obviously this is inappropriate for the field and deserves action. However - on the one hand I have numerous colleagues who say the job market isn't great, but it's fine, plus we have national organizations claiming things are ok, and on the other hand we have anonymous internet forum posters who who claiming the exact opposite, and that everyone else is delusional.

I will also add that is nice to actually hear personal stories and real anecdotes rather than the second-hand ones and rumors we have been getting for months.

 

[exPCM]

I am not totally sure what you all's goal is here - is part of it to dissuade people from pursuing pathology? Because anyone who doesn't really want to do pathology shouldn't be doing it anyway. And if you want to do it, you should do it. No one should EVER take as gospel truth the rantings of anonymous internet forum posters - obviously it is ok to listen and evaluate, but you need to talk to real people too. And if you really like pathology, discounting it as a career choice because of hot air and blather is pretty reprehensible (of course, so is picking a career primarily because of peripheral benefits). If your goal is to persuade people about the "real truth" about the job market, then fine, but you also have to acknowledge that many people don't have a huge problem with the job market. I believe you all when you say there are serious issues with the job market - although as we keep saying, a lot of that depends on many variables and may not apply to any one individual.

I suspect that many people who were planning on hiring have tabled that due to the economy and declining reimbursements, but I am not totally sure about that. If so, who knows when that will start back up again. I do agree that the myth of the "imminent retiring hoards of pathologists" is vastly overblown. I am trying to think of pathologists who voluntarily retired in the past few years, and I can think of only one. I know of a handful of others who were forced out by hospital management due to their old-fashioned behavior, and others who simply died.

And exPCM - it is REALLY time to stop posting the tripod link. I also hear there's something out there called the internet which is going to revolutionize the world.

And as for your comment about people being "taken in by the ministers of propaganda," to be honest, that is pretty disingenuous. If you are referring to me, it's flat out wrong - I keep posting (which you probably keep ignoring) that I understand the job market is not great, but it is variable, and the vast majority of residents I talk to (and I have talked to a great many) say they do not have huge trouble finding a good job. It is VERY hard to equate my own personal experience and encounters with what I see on this site. I understand many people have difficulties - I know a few personally - and obviously this is inappropriate for the field and deserves action. However - on the one hand I have numerous colleagues who say the job market isn't great, but it's fine, plus we have national organizations claiming things are ok, and on the other hand we have anonymous internet forum posters who who claiming the exact opposite, and that everyone else is delusional.

I will also add that is nice to actually hear personal stories and real anecdotes rather than the second-hand ones and rumors we have been getting for months.

Yaah, I named those who IMO are the "ministers of propaganda" in my post above. I think that you believe in what you post (as opposed to the ministers of propaganda who IMO say things which they know or should know are not true) and I am certain you will change your views within 12 months after getting out of fellowship and into the "real world". I bet I talked to at least 100 other pathology residents over a period of 4 years when going to national pathology meetings and the overwhelming majority of residents I talked to were upset or dismayed about the poor job market. Are you claiming that Verocay and Green Mantis are lying? I see no reason to doubt them. As to hot air and blather I feel that Fred Silva has cornered the market on those two items. Again if you don't believe me call ANY RECRUITER at Comphealth, Merritt Hawkins, etc. and ask them about the job market. They deal with physicians and the physician job market every day.

 

[2121115]

So basically, the job market is not good for everyone. However, some residents are still getting good jobs right? What are the characteristics that these residents have in common? Competence, social skills, knowing someone who knows someone, luck, etc?

 

[APCPPathologist]

Long time lurker -

I've been reading this board since I was a first year resident. Now I am a fellow. I have to say that there is some truth to what everyone is saying. I am a US medical grad and I've done a resideny and fellowship in the northeast at programs that are very well known. I have a business background and I have a fellowship that is among the more marketable. I'm on the job market and I must say that it is difficult.

I've followed the job market since I was a first year resident and this year is particularly bad - but my impression is that it has just switched from marginally okay to bad due to the financial markets and the general economy.

I'm trying to stay in the suburbs of any of the large cities in the northeast and the response I have gotten has been - "love you....you can have my job when I die". I've called every local program in the cap directory as well as in insurance program pathologist listings. I've had lots of phone conversations and face to face visits - but not many groups are growing and no one is retiring this year.

Some truths everyone can agree on:
- There are jobs - but very few in the metro northeast
- The jobs, once you get a good one, you can do until you die (they have the potential to pay well and they have a reasonable lifestyle)
- The jobs in path are harder to get compared to other specialities - except for something like rad onc.

Until I encountered this job market I would agree with the statement that you do a job you love. But I think that statement only works if there are jobs available. Spending your 20s working your hardest through school and training to become unemployed is not the way to go (talk to any of your investment banker friends that are unemployed...very sad). We're in medicine and we're all carrying >$100k in debt - most of our peers are going to get decent jobs - that should be our goal.

For those in med school or in early residency - plan well and keep an open mind as to where you will train and where you will live. Everyone is just telling you what their experience happens to be. The pathology chair who posts here has his academic perspective - if you want to go into academics - then listen to what he's telling you - however - if you are not going into academics then he probably doesn't have the best advice for you. The same holds true for those posts that are here from folks in private practice...In essence, the private and academic worlds are very different. This may seem like a duh statement - but think about it. The academic guys and gals are not in this biz for the money and they are willing to pick up and move to the other coast for a promotion and a good research package. Many tenured faculty make less cash then private practice pathologists that are just a few years out of training. This is common sense - don't forget it. I will say it again - if you are going into private practice then you will not get the best private practice advice from someone who has devoted their life to academics. Conversely, if you know you are an academic lifer - there will always be terrific jobs somewhere in the country in academics- and don't mind these private practice folks.

Pathology is an awesome field - but it has many problems - it is fractured at an academic level between ap and cp and is eroded at a business level between hospital-owned, clinician-owned and corporate owned labs. Do not wander into this field just because you like looking at glass and expect everything to turn out well. It may - but there are many pitfalls.

Good luck to all of you - as for me I have to seriously consider taking a job that may necessitate living in a quiet corner of the midwest that I never imagined visiting let alone living in.

 

[yaah]

I am certain you will change your views within 12 months after getting out of fellowship and into the "real world". I bet I talked to at least 100 other pathology residents over a period of 4 years when going to national pathology meetings and the overwhelming majority of residents I talked to were upset or dismayed about the poor job market. Are you claiming that Verocay and Green Mantis are lying? I see no reason to doubt them.

I find it hard to believe that we are both talking to dozens of people and getting vastly different conclusions. It is not even close to "overwhelming majority" of residents. It has been a minority (albeit a fairly vocal minority, like the one who yelled at the CAP forum). I never said anyone was lying. Are you saying all the people I talk to have been lying? Am I lying? You can't have it both ways. All I have been saying is that things are not quite as black and white as you and others make it out to be. And I reiterate that current residents who are really interested in this topic (everyone should be somewhat interested in the job market, particularly if you are not academically inclined at all) should be very very cautious about lending too much weight to internet forum postings.

And I am not certain how my view of, "the job market is not great but it is reasonable for many candidates" is going to change. The pathology job market has always been stronger for those with better credentials and more experience - it's like a lot of other fields outside of medicine - you need the experience to get the job, but you need the job in order to get the experience. Pathology is and will remain a smaller field.

Look - here's more data for you to shoot down - it's even written by a resident and it uses the word "robust" to describe the job market for hemepath fellows. At some point you have to start recognizing that not everyone who disagrees with you is completely delusional or drinking whomever's Kool Aide.

http://www.ascp.org/MainMenu/residents/Hematopathology-Fellowship-Job-Market-Robust.aspx