How much do dentists diagnose?

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PharmDr.

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I already posted this in the pre-dent forum but this is a question that dental students would know more about. Today it was slow at my work at CVS (Eckerds) and I was reading a copy of the Merck Manual of Medical Information and was looking at the dental related section and came across disorders of the lips, mouth, and tongue and wondered if dentists are involved in this area? I have noticed that dentists treat canker sores since I saw ads for meds in the GP's office I shadow but how about oral herpes and other growths, & tongue disorders like glossitis. Also, do dentists treat patient that have arthritis in some form (oteo or rheum) when coming in complaining about tmj pain w/ meds? I know dentists screen for all sorts of cancers in the mouth but I was just curious as to what all a dentist is involved w/in the oral cavity. Thanks for any inputs guys (and gals)
 
why double post
 
why double post...because I already had posted in the pre-dent forum so later I felt I would get a better answer from dental students not pre-dental students.
 
PharmDr.,

I would say canker sores are among the most minor thigs dentists diagnose and treat. If it involves "lips, mouth, and tongue" as you ask, and it's not treated (or at least diagnosed, documented and followed-up on) by a dentist, there exists a very real potential for malpractice. Especially with a recent push towards "Dental Medicine" (though that's another topic for debate in another post). Any dentist should learn and be able to apply enough from his or her education to diagnose (or know when to refer in very difficult, ambiguous cases) any lesion that is seen, both intraorally and extraorally.

As far as TMD and other TMJ related problems, some dentists will try therapy, etc aimed at these problems. In large part, because these can be such involved yet intricate problems many patients will seek care at a Craniofacial Pain clinic (found in many dental schools, etc.) Meds are only one of many potential treatments along with occlusal adjustments, habit appliances or changes, etc... though none are ever guaranteed to work.

If as a dentist you're just removing decay, cutting crown preps, or throwing in plates, you're not really doing everything that could (and should) be expected of you.
 
hey thanks jpollei for your reply as I just want to learn more about the dental profession.
 
PharmDr. said:
I already posted this in the pre-dent forum but this is a question that dental students would know more about. Today it was slow at my work at CVS (Eckerds) and I was reading a copy of the Merck Manual of Medical Information and was looking at the dental related section and came across disorders of the lips, mouth, and tongue and wondered if dentists are involved in this area? I have noticed that dentists treat canker sores since I saw ads for meds in the GP's office I shadow but how about oral herpes and other growths, & tongue disorders like glossitis. Also, do dentists treat patient that have arthritis in some form (oteo or rheum) when coming in complaining about tmj pain w/ meds? I know dentists screen for all sorts of cancers in the mouth but I was just curious as to what all a dentist is involved w/in the oral cavity. Thanks for any inputs guys (and gals)


Here they are VERY big on pathology, esp oral path. I have a strong feeling that I could recognize most potentially bad diseases and either follow procedural code in treating them or refer to someone who knows more than I. As far as herpes etc.... GP's do fine at that. Oral cancers, I would be a little more scared to take care of, but I feel that I could do a good job. Again, especially when it comes to having the background of knowing when to biopsy and when to not biopsy!!!
 
c132 said:
Here they are VERY big on pathology, esp oral path. I have a strong feeling that I could recognize most potentially bad diseases and either follow procedural code in treating them or refer to someone who knows more than I. As far as herpes etc.... GP's do fine at that. Oral cancers, I would be a little more scared to take care of, but I feel that I could do a good job. Again, especially when it comes to having the background of knowing when to biopsy and when to not biopsy!!!
Ditto IUSD. Our pathology professor is *super*-emphatic about educating students to be more than just drill jockeys, and our path sequence is widely considered the most difficult coursework of the entire four years.
 
How much do dentists diagnose? Not as much as they ought to, but way more than you might think.

Oral path as well as systemic path MUST be a pivotal weapon in our arsenal or we are truly running the risk of being nothing more than tooth mechanics. When that happens, our jobs are at serious risk of being outsourced to somebody else.

Specific dental procedures could be taught to high-school graduates and they could become plenty proficient in specific areas in 2-3 months.

Widening our impact on medicine is a powerful way to overcome this.
 
Oral cancers, I would be a little more scared to take care of, but I feel that I could do a good job.

I hope you are not speaking from the standpoint of a general dentist. I think that most oral lesions seen by a general dentist should be referred to an OMS or ENT for management, and if it cancer 100%. This includes biopsies(except brush biopsies) too. There is just too much involved in treating most of these lesions for some general dentist to try to go in there and screw up the sequencing of treatment and the work up. Your roll in this process is screening (the most important in my opinion).
 
omsres said:
I hope you are not speaking from the standpoint of a general dentist. I think that most oral lesions seen by a general dentist should be referred to an OMS or ENT for management, and if it cancer 100%. This includes biopsies(except brush biopsies) too. There is just too much involved in treating most of these lesions for some general dentist to try to go in there and screw up the sequencing of treatment and the work up. Your roll in this process is screening (the most important in my opinion).

Damn omsres, don't be so condescending. I swear, you can be such a jerk.
 
Damn omsres, don't be so condescending. I swear, you can be such a jerk.

Oh I'm so sorry Mr. "Why OMS is the absolute measure of manhood". I knew when I married your mother that taking you on as my stepson would be difficult.
 
omsres said:
Oh I'm so sorry Mr. "Why OMS is the absolute measure of manhood". I knew when I married your mother that taking you on as my stepson would be difficult.


Man, you are not god, not even close. You guys give dentists a bad name. You do not deserve the title. Solely because of the fields attitude (BOW TO ME I AM AN ORAL SURGEON) I will RARELY refer out to you. You can damn well bet that when I have an implant to place, OMS will be the LAST on the list for that. You guys have all the mouth in the world and NOTHING to back it up. Lets get a handpiece and see who has the best hands, I would be my car on it that its not you!!!

SO GROW up, thats why nobody likes you. You are in fact a BIG jerk, and truthfully if you don't grow up your not going to make it. People will learn about your attitude and refuse to refer to you. I know if I had to refer to OMS and you were close by, I would put my patients driving 2 hours, and would explain to them that I think they will receive better treatment doing it..,

And are you saying that I can't do a biopsy. Come on man get real, why would I send that to you for you to OVERCHARGE the hell out of the pt. just for getting it sent to a pathologist? Then if it did come back I probably would refer to ENT surgeon. They are far more reliable in my book....
 
about the original question on this thread,

Dentists are expected to notice evrything about a patient right from when he walks into the clinic cos his general appearance gives you a clue about several things like,the patients attitude or any other visible medical problems.Ofcourse when you go through the patients case history,you learn a lot more.then comes the examination part......which a good dentist will carry out meticuously,since he may notice signs of other diseases that the patient is not aware of,or has not shown symptoms.It is in both, the dentists and patients interest,that anything suspicious should be investigated thoroughly.

So you see,a well trained dentist should not conform his examinations to tissues within the oral cavity only.The bottom line is,he is a doctor and has the power to influence the society!
 
Right on c132! I couldn't agree with you more! General dentists should do most everything oral surgeons do b/c, afterall, what they do isn't all that hard. Any dummy can pull teeth and biopsy stuff. How hard is it to cut out a piece of tissue? Every dental student goes through head and neck anatomy and head and neck and should be able to do what those oral surgeons do. I agree! GP guys should be held to the same standards! Oral surgeons are just dentists with bad hand skills! Exactly!

I think ENT's are far more reliable. Obviously their lack of knowledge concerning occlusion and dental anatomy makes them perfect candidates for performing oral procedures.

Funny how oral surgery is always used as the gold standard of dental achievement. I think I read a post about that on here somewhere...

In all seriousness, this subject has been covered ad nauseum in another post. Bottom line, specialists need GP's, and GP's need specialists. Any specialist that thinks he doesn't need or is better than GP's is wrong. Conversely, any GP who thinks he can do everything a specialist can do suffers from penis envy. See the previous posts. Truthfully, I wish we could all just get along and stop this pissing match. I really do get tired of this stupid arguement. Omsres was essentially saying that GP's and specialists both have legitimate roles in treating oral cancer.

Furthermore, I think most GP's understand oral path and treatments while they're in dental school. However, C132, when you get into private practice you loose some of those skills b/c you don't do it everyday. Why bother with it when you can make more money doing pros?

Finally, as for biopsies being overpriced, how much will you charge for bleaching trays in your practice? You know, those trays that your lab tech makes after your assistant impresses the pt? BTW, can you explain to me the principles of oncologically sound biopsy? I hate these pissing matches, but you opened the door and I love stirring things up.
 
c132 said:
Man, you are not god, not even close. You guys give dentists a bad name. You do not deserve the title. Solely because of the fields attitude (BOW TO ME I AM AN ORAL SURGEON) I will RARELY refer out to you. You can damn well bet that when I have an implant to place, OMS will be the LAST on the list for that. You guys have all the mouth in the world and NOTHING to back it up. Lets get a handpiece and see who has the best hands, I would be my car on it that its not you!!!

SO GROW up, thats why nobody likes you. You are in fact a BIG jerk, and truthfully if you don't grow up your not going to make it. People will learn about your attitude and refuse to refer to you. I know if I had to refer to OMS and you were close by, I would put my patients driving 2 hours, and would explain to them that I think they will receive better treatment doing it..,

And are you saying that I can't do a biopsy. Come on man get real, why would I send that to you for you to OVERCHARGE the hell out of the pt. just for getting it sent to a pathologist? Then if it did come back I probably would refer to ENT surgeon. They are far more reliable in my book....


but tell us how you really feel, c132....
😉





concerning biopsies...
even though i am confident with my oral path background..and a goal in private practice is to be proficient in the bread &butter "specialty" procedures...
..biopsies, esp. on a potentially malignant lesion is one procedure where i punt.

the risk:reward ratio really isnt attractive to to me...or the patient,imo.

it really isnt a matter of pride...or if u think someone is a jerk or not...
...it is a professional responsibility.
you are aren't sure what to do... refer it out.
 
I think the reason that some GPs feel the need to say things like "I will rarely refer to anyone" is basically a sign that they do not fully understand the procedures they're perfoming. Here's an example: if C132 thinks that he wants to biopsy a suspicious lesion 3x3 mm on the tongue and send it off and he(i don't know your gender) gets back a diagnosis of SCCA. So then what will you do? It's small, just treat it yourself.

We got a similar case refered to our clinic. The incsional biopsy showed SCCA. The problem was, we didn't have a pre biopsy photo or measurement, and the biopsy was not of sufficient depth. Based on these factors your treatment plan varies from wide local excision to hemiglossectomy and ipsilateral lymph node dissection. We had to do the latter because there was no way of knowing.

This is just one example of hundreds of cases that are handled improperly because a GP doesn't know enough to refer. The decions that are made early on in the management of things can vastly affect the ultimate outcome for the patient. This young lady now has 1/2 a tongue and scarred down neck because of this.

This kind of decision making takes years of training with people who fully understand the disease processes and the ramifications of treating them. Theres more to oral surgery and oral path than what you read out of peterson's and neville and damm.

GP's are not expected to know how treat such things, and I'll refer back to my earlier post. A dentist should have a low threshold to act when they see an oral lesion. Just look at the epidemicological statistics and you'll see that oral cancer is typically diagnosed late at an advanced stage where the 5 year survival is only 5-10% with optimal treatment. Screening is the ultimate tool in the fight to prevent these terrible lesions from killing people. C132, please don't treat these things yourself.

You want to talk about hand skills, talk to me once you finish cutting on typodont teeth. Then I'll show you how to anastamose 3 mm diameter vessels together with 9-0 sutures under a microscope. Remember, Iv'e completed dental school and passed a regional liscening board exam. My hand skills are more than adequate, however I like to compare brain skills when it comes to being a true practioner. I respect most on this forum for having these but your uninformed comments reflect your lack thereof.

You want to refer to ENT, that's fine. At least these lesions will be handled proplerly. By the way, you think oral surgeons don't respect the general dentist, the ENTs barely acknowledge your doctorate. Most get what you do confused with a dental hygienist or a lab tech with college degree. Hell, some md's in the hospital think OMS's make dentures. We still get referred to as the dentist even though we are physicians as well. At least I respect the amount of training, knowledge and skill it takes to become a liscened dentist and will always refer to you as Doctor.
 
I've been a lowly GPR at this hosptial for almost 2 months and I've seen both of these scenarios happen.

omsres said:
By the way, you think oral surgeons don't respect the general dentist, the ENTs barely acknowledge your doctorate.
ENT, Anesthesia & everyone else involved thought I was a med student hanging around the Operating Room on a Saturday night when the procedure being done was an emergency EXTRACTION with an huge infection that was affecting the patient's airway. Never mind that I was the first person the Emergency Room called to come to see the patient earlier that day when the patient leisurely strolled in thinking all was cool, way before ENT & Anesthesia got involved at the OR level.

omsres said:
Hell, some md's in the hospital think OMS's make dentures. We still get referred to as the dentist even though we are physicians as well.
A whole bunch of MDs & nurses trying to intubate a patient laughed at the 6th-year OMFS resident when he offered to help with an intubation (sticking a tube down the trachea of a patient who isn't breathing) that was getting difficult because there was blood covering everything in the mouth. I believe their exact words were "Aren't you just a dentist?"

To answer the OP, yes, a good general dentist will be involved in identifying and following the proper protocol when he/she comes across a lesion of the lip, tongue, or other soft or hard tissue in the mouth. Will a dentist treat a patient with arthritis complaining of TMJ pain? Yes, a dentist can treat this as well, but most of the dentists involved in this kind of treatment have had some additional training beyond dental school b/c true TMJ pain can be a very tricky arena.
 
The problem with this board is those who claim to be oms residents are usually not. If you are then then you shouldn't have time for this board.
If you really are an OMS res. and have that attitude then good luck b/c you aren't going to be successful with attitude. Any oms who acts like they are the sh.t doesn't get my referals.

In terms of diagnosing, dentists diagnose everything to the best of their ability then refer to whom can handle the job.
 
omsres said:
You want to talk about hand skills, talk to me once you finish cutting on typodont teeth. Then I'll show you how to anastamose 3 mm diameter vessels together with 9-0 sutures under a microscope. .

UH, I dunno what you're even talking about. I have been finished with typodont teeth for a year now. I am the top of my class when it comes to hand skills, so I seriously doubt it if you are even able to "show" me how to wipe my ass!!!!



omsres said:
We still get referred to as the dentist even though we are physicians as well. At least I respect the amount of training, knowledge and skill it takes to become a liscened dentist and will always refer to you as Doctor.


UH, NO you're not a physician. You can't even spell the word. SO please spare me the mental aspects of your life as you did earlier. YOU are NOT a physician, That is where you guys go wrong. You're a DENTIST. Read that other post where that OMS was trying to convince these people that they are qualified in doing brain surgery!!!!! I don't want to get into a little batter back and back again. I feel more than confident in biopsy and then refer if something comes in wrong, and I will continue to do it. I will have measurements and a pic, for I think that is the standard of care... and to tell you the truth, I know several ENT docs, my wife has done many rotations through there and they know what a dentist is. See ENT respects their own boundaries, unlike OMS. THey also have a very high respect for dentists, Maybe where you are a total a hole, no body likes you!!!! Heck one asked so many ?'s about dentistry, that it wasn't even funny. They also know what an OMS is. THey know that you guys shouldn't be doing some of the stuff that you do and I fully agree with them!!!! YOu are NOT a physician. DId you go to medical school, uh NO. DOn't act like your something your not. A dentist is a very well respected profession. Be proud to be a dentist.. Thats why you guys get labeled as a dentist who couldn't get into medical school...
 
YOu are NOT a physician. DId you go to medical school, uh NO

Yes its true I'm not a physician...yet. But I am in my third year of medical school and I've successufully completed the Step I of the USMLE. My upper levels and chief are all physicians as well as dentists.

The problem with this board is those who claim to be oms residents are usually not. If you are then then you shouldn't have time for this board.

I am indeed a resident, i'm in med school right now. Not exactly an all encompassing task.

I know dental school teach the students the techniques of how to biopsy a lesion they also teach the basics concepts of orthodontics and orthognathic surgery, this doesn't mean you should do it in private practice. C132 and Guttapercha, you guys have no facts and no experience. The statements that you make is a result of your ego. Shuck all the wisdom teeth you want, place 2000 implants a year, I don't care. Those things are done by many GPs. I'm talking about life and death, quality of life issues here. Seriously, you may want to put your egos aside and do what's best for your patient. You think you want to takle "real OMS" good luck.

I'm done with these guys. Thanks for the support Griffen, obviously someone who has some real world experience, albeit only 2 months. I think if you read my posts you will see that I am only concerned about what is best for the patient. I think it is irresponsible for any practitioner to perform services he/she is not adequately trained for, my reason for responding to c132's first post. GP's should screen and let oms, ENT biopsy and treat. It will always be a better senario when the treating doctor is able to see the lesion in its unaltered form. So in response to the OP, General dentist have the ability to diagnose a lot of oral conditions and they are able to recognize suspicious lesions and come up with a good differential diagnosis. I believe if you attempt an incisional or excisional biopsy on one of these lesions you are putting your patient at risk.
 
Griffin and C132,

You guy's aren't even dentists yet. You've got awefully big mouths
without the wherewithall to back up your statements. I agree with TX OMFS; you guys should perform whatever procedures you want to do. Just remember this post when you get burned/sued/hurt somebody.

We will.
 
omsres said:
Yes its true I'm not a physician...yet. But I am in my third year of medical school and I've successufully completed the Step I of the USMLE. My upper levels and chief are all physicians as well as dentists.



I am indeed a resident, i'm in med school right now. Not exactly an all encompassing task.

I know dental school teach the students the techniques of how to biopsy a lesion they also teach the basics concepts of orthodontics and orthognathic surgery, this doesn't mean you should do it in private practice. C132 and Guttapercha, you guys have no facts and no experience. The statements that you make is a result of your ego. Shuck all the wisdom teeth you want, place 2000 implants a year, I don't care. Those things are done by many GPs. I'm talking about life and death, quality of life issues here. Seriously, you may want to put your egos aside and do what's best for your patient. You think you want to takle "real OMS" good luck.

I'm done with these guys. Thanks for the support Griffen, obviously someone who has some real world experience, albeit only 2 months. I think if you read my posts you will see that I am only concerned about what is best for the patient. I think it is irresponsible for any practitioner to perform services he/she is not adequately trained for, my reason for responding to c132's first post. GP's should screen and let oms, ENT biopsy and treat. It will always be a better senario when the treating doctor is able to see the lesion in its unaltered form. So in response to the OP, General dentist have the ability to diagnose a lot of oral conditions and they are able to recognize suspicious lesions and come up with a good differential diagnosis. I believe if you attempt an incisional or excisional biopsy on one of these lesions you are putting your patient at risk.

OK believe what you must to maintain your ego. I do hope your in the MD along with your OMS residency program. Which program are you in? Hey, guess what thats still not even a physician. A physician is one who does an medical residency. As in internal medicine for 3 or 4 years. Radiology for 5 years. and so on. And you can NEVER call yourself a physician. OMS is a DENTIST, and in my book will always be a dentist till the end of time comes. The physician side of OMS is ENT. I am done fighting back and forth, you need to go and make sure that you don' open an office around myself, cause with your attitude you will NEVER get business from me, or any dentist that is friends with me.
 
LordLister said:
Griffin and C132,

You guy's aren't even dentists yet. You've got awefully big mouths
without the wherewithall to back up your statements. I agree with TX OMFS; you guys should perform whatever procedures you want to do. Just remember this post when you get burned/sued/hurt somebody.

We will.


HEy lordLister, keep your butt out of it. DOn't go stirring up **** and you may quit smelling like it!!!! YOu can't honestly believe that a GP can't do a biopsy? WHere did you guys go to D school at. They teach us so much on biopsy etc. here, that its not even funny. I will put my doctorate degree on it that you will hurt/burn/or get sued by many many many many more pts that I, simply because unlike most of you OMS if you are even an OMS, I KNOW MY BOUNDARIES.......
 
LordLister said:
Griffin and C132,

You guy's aren't even dentists yet. You've got awefully big mouths
without the wherewithall to back up your statements. I agree with TX OMFS; you guys should perform whatever procedures you want to do. Just remember this post when you get burned/sued/hurt somebody.

We will.
You might want to double-check your facts on this one, chief. Griffon is a licensed dentist. How about you?
 
c132 said:
OK believe what you must to maintain your ego. I do hope your in the MD along with your OMS residency program. Which program are you in? Hey, guess what thats still not even a physician. A physician is one who does an medical residency. As in internal medicine for 3 or 4 years. Radiology for 5 years. and so on. And you can NEVER call yourself a physician. OMS is a DENTIST, and in my book will always be a dentist till the end of time comes. The physician side of OMS is ENT. I am done fighting back and forth, you need to go and make sure that you don' open an office around myself, cause with your attitude you will NEVER get business from me, or any dentist that is friends with me.

I can't help but laugh at this. It makes no sense. "Physician" simply means you have an MD, which about 40% of the OMFS programs offer or require. Simple facts.
 
c132 said:
OMS is a DENTIST, and in my book will always be a dentist till the end of time comes.

Wow, so people who graduate from medical school with an MD degree are dentists. Very interesting (and yes, I know not all OMSes earn the MD).

Further, your point about physicians doing medical residencies is absurd. MD oral surgeons DO complete medical residencies. What do you think their training is, a non-medical residency?!
 
I don't understand how you guys can get so worked up about stuff on an internet forum. I just don't. 🙄 Half the stuff on here is made up and another third is grossly exaggerated. Don't let it get to you. There's a whole real, live world out there to go to when you get the chance... or so I've been told. 🙂
 
toofache32 said:
I can't help but laugh at this. It makes no sense. "Physician" simply means you have an MD, which about 40% of the OMFS programs offer or require. Simple facts.


Laugh away!!!!! 😀 40% is not really a significant number!!! Go worship them all you want!!!!
 
ItsGavinC said:
Wow, so people who graduate from medical school with an MD degree are dentists. Very interesting (and yes, I know not all OMSes earn the MD).

Where in the hell did that come from? YOu honestly think that the residency that they go through is the same as the 4 years of medical school? then they learn OMS in 2 years? UH Don't think so, THat makes no since gavin!!!!
 
c132 said:
Laugh away!!!!! 😀 40% is not really a significant number!!! Go worship them all you want!!!!
How indisputably true. I simply can't argue with this one, and I bet every friend & relative of patients who've died from cancers with 60% survival rates would agree that 40% is an utterly negligible fraction.
 
c132 said:
Where in the hell did that come from? YOu honestly think that the residency that they go through is the same as the 4 years of medical school? then they learn OMS in 2 years? UH Don't think so, THat makes no since gavin!!!!

Actually it's usually only 2 years of medical school (3rd and 4th), since the courses are essentially the same for the 1st 2 years of medical and dental school. You should make sure you know what you're talking about before mouthing off with all those exclamation points!!!!! A typical 6-year OMFS residency goes like this:

Year 1: 12 months of OMFS and pass part one of the medical boards
Year 2: 3rd year of med school
Year 3: 4th year of med school, and a few months of OMFS, pass part 2 of medical boards
Year 4: 12 months of general surgery
Year 5: 12 months of OMFS
Year 6: 12 months of OMFS

Or here's a link to the program in Alabama which explains it very well:

http://www.dental.uab.edu/departments/maxillofacialSurgery/Training Program

I'm still trying to figure out where you get your information. Maybe from an orifice.
 
In regards to c132, we should all follow the advice at the bottom of aphistis's posts. There are some out their that have a hard time when others have a different opinion than themselves.
 
toofache32 said:
Actually it's usually only 2 years of medical school (3rd and 4th), since the courses are essentially the same for the 1st 2 years of medical and dental school. You should make sure you know what you're talking about before mouthing off with all those exclamation points!!!!! A typical 6-year OMFS residency goes like this:

Year 1: 12 months of OMFS and pass part one of the medical boards
Year 2: 3rd year of med school
Year 3: 4th year of med school, and a few months of OMFS, pass part 2 of medical boards
Year 4: 12 months of general surgery
Year 5: 12 months of OMFS
Year 6: 12 months of OMFS

Or here's a link to the program in Alabama which explains it very well:

http://www.dental.uab.edu/departments/maxillofacialSurgery/Training Program

I'm still trying to figure out where you get your information. Maybe from an orifice.


I think you should go to medical school before "mouthing off" I know what medical school is, and NO dental schools first 2 years is nothing like medical schools first 2 years. For GOD sake, just look at gross anatomy, we didn't even do from the penis down. They spent 5 weeks on that part.... That alone will differentiate between a physcian and a dentist.... I think you need to figure out where you get your information on the subject at hand before you, as you put it, mouth off

And please toothache exlpain what such information have I been inaccurate about? I don't see anything? We are just batting back and forth, not saying anything inaccurate, not that I have seen anyways, so why would you even post up here?


OK guys, I didn't really mean to start a war here!!!! Lets let it die!!! How bout that tiger woods!!!! LOL!!! We have a few hot heads on the forum, esp about oral surgery. Everytime a post come up on them, it seems to blow into this huge fight!!!! Everyone has their own opinion about them, and that is perfectly fine... So lets bury the hatchet here!!!
 
A M.D. degree is a M.D. degree. Doesn't matter if it's one year of medical school or three years of medical school. We can argue all day long about the curriculum and/or rotations medical students at different medical schools goes through. Not all schools/residencies are the same. If an OMFS resident gets an M.D. degree then that OMFS is a medical doctor/physician.

It's like saying a pharmacist decides to go to medical school and get his M.D., do you still call him a "pharmacist"? No, of course not! He is now a medical doctor with Pharm D. background.

Go back to the original post question, actually general dentists discover oral lesions first and they usually have a "clinical diagnosis" or at least some differential diagnosis and then they refer the patient to an OMFS or an Oral Pathologist for a definitive diagnosis.

General dentists do perform biopsies, but much less than OMFSs and/or Oral Pathologists. The question at hand is "how much does dentist diagnose?" NOT who knows more about oral pathology? Dentists don't diagnose much, but do find oral lesions quite often! Who really diagnoses? It's Oral Pathologists. Even OMFSs send their biopsies to Oral Pathologist.

1) dentist finds "funny" or abnormal lesions
2) refer to neighboring OMFS
3) OMFS performs biopsies
4) OMFS send the biopsy to Oral Path people
5) Oral Path defines the lesion
6) Oral Path informs dentist and the OMFS
 
oral pathologists rule!
 
c132 said:
I think you should go to medical school before "mouthing off" I know what medical school is, and NO dental schools first 2 years is nothing like medical schools first 2 years....I think you need to figure out where you get your information on the subject at hand before you, as you put it, mouth off

I HAVE gone to medical school...as part of my oral surgery residency. I guess I should have made that clear earlier, because that's where I get my information...first hand.

You're correct in saying that the first 2 years of dental school is nothing like medical school...it's tougher. Med school's 1st 2 years don't even compare to dental school in my opinion. Med students have fewer courses, fewer lectures, fewer exams, and are much more spoon-fed (at least where I went). Oral surgery residents (in 6-year programs) take part 1 of the medical boards to skip the first 2 years of med school. We are able to do this because we have already had essentially the same courses. You can, too.

c132 said:
And please toothache exlpain what such information have I been inaccurate about?

"The physician side of OMS is ENT." --I don't understand this. If I have the same MD as an ENT, why doesn't my medical degree count?

"I do hope your in the MD along with your OMS residency program. Hey, guess what thats still not even a physician." --I'm not clear on how some MD's are physicians while some are not. I've attended the same medical school and passed the same medical boards as all my classmates.

Is your other name "MacGyver"?
 
his extremely average part 1 board score lead me to believe he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
 
toofache, you can't explain anything to this guy. Let him get some experience under his belt and he'll either come around or screw somebody over. Just some advice c132, do some research into your own profession and its specialties. It's easy to say all this stuff from the safety of your dental school with all your professors to back you up, but when you get on your own its not as easy to make the call on these critical issues.

Man, too bad we can't solve these debates with a good old fashion freestyle rap battle.
 
Bitters, I know you just didn't go there. 87? Man, can't believe I even responded to his posts.
 
omsres said:
Bitters, I know you just didn't go there. 87? Man, can't believe I even responded to his posts.



OK! GUYS, no more fighting! Can't we all just get along!!!!!


I had NO desires of getting higher than a 75 on my boards!!! I want to be a GP, I am good with my hands, probably either top or for sure near the top of my class. I already know that I can make a nice living doing GP work!!!! OK, anyways, enough with the fighting!!! I don't even know how we got on this OMS vs GP stuff anyways!!!!

No need to get a headache over a forum anyways! 😀 😀 😀

One thing that bugs me about OMS that I can't seem to get, and since some of you are OMS residents, WHY do you guys NEVER sit down?
 
How are the other GPRs in the program, are they cocky, or just mellow. Do they think they are MDs, Oral Surgeons, when in fact only a GPR, My program the other GPRs have huge egos.

griffin04 said:
I've been a lowly GPR at this hosptial for almost 2 months and I've seen both of these scenarios happen.


ENT, Anesthesia & everyone else involved thought I was a med student hanging around the Operating Room on a Saturday night when the procedure being done was an emergency EXTRACTION with an huge infection that was affecting the patient's airway. Never mind that I was the first person the Emergency Room called to come to see the patient earlier that day when the patient leisurely strolled in thinking all was cool, way before ENT & Anesthesia got involved at the OR level.


A whole bunch of MDs & nurses trying to intubate a patient laughed at the 6th-year OMFS resident when he offered to help with an intubation (sticking a tube down the trachea of a patient who isn't breathing) that was getting difficult because there was blood covering everything in the mouth. I believe their exact words were "Aren't you just a dentist?"

To answer the OP, yes, a good general dentist will be involved in identifying and following the proper protocol when he/she comes across a lesion of the lip, tongue, or other soft or hard tissue in the mouth. Will a dentist treat a patient with arthritis complaining of TMJ pain? Yes, a dentist can treat this as well, but most of the dentists involved in this kind of treatment have had some additional training beyond dental school b/c true TMJ pain can be a very tricky arena.
 
In response to the OP, I think general dentists can treat whatever they want if they feel comfortable. If you paid attention in school and remember how to treat these things, go for it. Most patients with canker sores, oral herpes, and glossitis would see their PCP (primary care physician); I don't think most people realize a dentist can treat that stuff. Their physician may treat it or refer them to ENT, OMS, or GP DDS depending on who they are most familiar with. In that scenario the ENT is most likely to get the call followed by OMS.

As for the frustration GP's feel towards OMS', I see the same thing with PCP's and internists in the medical world. These "primary care" guys get ridiculed by medical and surgical specialists routinely. It's as though being a primary care doc, either in the medical or dental world, is underachieving. What a stupid belief! Somebody has to do primary care--taking care of routine problems, dabbling in selected "specialty" areas based on the GP's interest, and making referrals when needed. GP dentists and PCP's are capable doctors. Dentists and PCP's have a right to get pissed when someone tries to put them down. I understand their frustration.

As an OMS, I am frustrated by the occassional lack of respect I receive from physician, as omsres discussed. I am also frustrated by folks like C132 who continue to declare the virtues of ENT's over OMS', especially when C132 seems to have no knowledge of expanded scope OMS.

Expanded-scope OMS' have to deal with comments about our lack of training and capablilty all the time. There is resistence in the medical community to our expansion, and our role is not well defined within the medical community. There are guys like C132 who think we are abandoning our dental roots and doing things we have no business doing.

Personally, I want to build a referral base from the medical world for tooth, oral, cosmetic, and pathologic cases. I would also like to be the "go-to guy" for the dental world. I would like to treat GP's with respect and handle their difficult cases and pathologic/trauma referrals. However, I worry that I will become the town garbage man that will get nothing but crappy cases dumped on me if I try to be the "go-to guy".

Guys like C132 piss off specialists. The comments they make are the reason that specialists, either in the dental or medical world, get mad at primary care people. C132, a lot of your posts are from the pit of ignorance hell.

What we're seeing in this post is OMS' reacting to diarrhea of the mouth (or keyboard) exhibited by C132. I think most OMS' would agree GP's can do whatever they want in their office if it lives up to the standard of care. I would agree with omsres that significant pathology is probably best treated by specialists from start to finish.

My question is why C132 hates OMS' so much. Did your OMS faculty call you out or embarrass you? Furthermore, you mention OMS's being "all mouth" with nothing to back it up. How in the hell can you back up your totally subjective claims of having the best hand skills in your class? There is absolutely no way to objectively verify that claim.

As for your claim that you will never rever to OMS', get serious. Sooner or later you will. You may refer to perio for implants or even thirds, but there will come a day when you are in over your head and the only guy you can get in touch with, the only guy carrying a pager, is the OMS down the street that you hate. You'd better hope that when that situation comes he hasn't already written you off.

Don't become the GP that all the specialists hate, and don't make the mistake of thinking that b/c you're a GP you control the specialists and they all depend on you. That's the same God complex you hate in oral surgeons.

Finally, C132, you never answered my question about the price of your bleaching trays? Are you going to charge a handful of Benjamen's for your trays that you don't even work on and are purely cosmetic? If so, I can charge $200, $300, or even $400 for a potentially life-saving biopsy I preform with my own hands.
 
Hey man, I already apologized to the forum, and don't want to start anymore ****. HOWEVER, now that you refuse to let it die. I FEEL as though I am more than confident in taking a biopsy, which is what I said. If the pt wants me to do it. For one thing I am going to work in a VERY rural area, and the nearest OMS is probably no less than an hour drive, and many people don't want to do that!!!! Secondly, No the reason I dislike OMS, is the same that I dislike surgeons over in the med field. They are cocky! Not saying I am not, but that is to a whole different degree. I will refer out to an oms, I have respect for them. I was in the heat of arguement. I will however find an OMs that I like, or rather isn't cocky!!!!!

OK, lets end the fighting!!!!
 
TX OMFS said:
In response to the OP, I think general dentists can treat whatever they want if they feel comfortable. If you paid attention in school and remember how to treat these things, go for it. Most patients with canker sores, oral herpes, and glossitis would see their PCP (primary care physician); I don't think most people realize a dentist can treat that stuff. Their physician may treat it or refer them to ENT, OMS, or GP DDS depending on who they are most familiar with. In that scenario the ENT is most likely to get the call followed by OMS.

As for the frustration GP's feel towards OMS', I see the same thing with PCP's and internists in the medical world. These "primary care" guys get ridiculed by medical and surgical specialists routinely. It's as though being a primary care doc, either in the medical or dental world, is underachieving. What a stupid belief! Somebody has to do primary care--taking care of routine problems, dabbling in selected "specialty" areas based on the GP's interest, and making referrals when needed. GP dentists and PCP's are capable doctors. Dentists and PCP's have a right to get pissed when someone tries to put them down. I understand their frustration.

As an OMS, I am frustrated by the occassional lack of respect I receive from physician, as omsres discussed. I am also frustrated by folks like C132 who continue to declare the virtues of ENT's over OMS', especially when C132 seems to have no knowledge of expanded scope OMS.

Expanded-scope OMS' have to deal with comments about our lack of training and capablilty all the time. There is resistence in the medical community to our expansion, and our role is not well defined within the medical community. There are guys like C132 who think we are abandoning our dental roots and doing things we have no business doing.

Personally, I want to build a referral base from the medical world for tooth, oral, cosmetic, and pathologic cases. I would also like to be the "go-to guy" for the dental world. I would like to treat GP's with respect and handle their difficult cases and pathologic/trauma referrals. However, I worry that I will become the town garbage man that will get nothing but crappy cases dumped on me if I try to be the "go-to guy".

Guys like C132 piss off specialists. The comments they make are the reason that specialists, either in the dental or medical world, get mad at primary care people. C132, a lot of your posts are from the pit of ignorance hell.

What we're seeing in this post is OMS' reacting to diarrhea of the mouth (or keyboard) exhibited by C132. I think most OMS' would agree GP's can do whatever they want in their office if it lives up to the standard of care. I would agree with omsres that significant pathology is probably best treated by specialists from start to finish.

My question is why C132 hates OMS' so much. Did your OMS faculty call you out or embarrass you? Furthermore, you mention OMS's being "all mouth" with nothing to back it up. How in the hell can you back up your totally subjective claims of having the best hand skills in your class? There is absolutely no way to objectively verify that claim.

As for your claim that you will never rever to OMS', get serious. Sooner or later you will. You may refer to perio for implants or even thirds, but there will come a day when you are in over your head and the only guy you can get in touch with, the only guy carrying a pager, is the OMS down the street that you hate. You'd better hope that when that situation comes he hasn't already written you off.

Don't become the GP that all the specialists hate, and don't make the mistake of thinking that b/c you're a GP you control the specialists and they all depend on you. That's the same God complex you hate in oral surgeons.

Finally, C132, you never answered my question about the price of your bleaching trays? Are you going to charge a handful of Benjamen's for your trays that you don't even work on and are purely cosmetic? If so, I can charge $200, $300, or even $400 for a potentially life-saving biopsy I preform with my own hands.
Sweet post. 👍
 
introducing TX OMFS:

online_fighter.jpg

😉
 
aphistis & Gavin: Thanks for the support. I am actually licensed in the state of NY. And I would probably never touch a biopsy in a general practice setting. Refer it right out. Biopsy is a procedure I have literally no training from dental school in performing and therefore no business in doing on actual patients.
 
toothcaries said:
introducing TX OMFS:

online_fighter.jpg

😉

TX OMFS is my boy, but I crack up everytime I see this picture. :laugh:
 
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