How much does honours matter?

[soporific]

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I have the choice between two degrees:

1) BSc, major in biological sciences with minor in Japanese
This will allow me more flexibility to choose the courses I am interested in/ that will be better targeted for the field I want to do research in during an MD/PhD (translational immunology). It might also be easier to get a higher GPA because I will like the courses better. I can also do research courses in this degree.

2) BSc honours, major in cellular, molecular, and microbial biology with minor in Japanese
This will restrict my course selection but will still prepare me just as well for graduate studies. More lab courses might take up time and I am less interested in the courses that are mandated. The plus is the honours designation.

So my questions are, 1, does the honours/specialized degree matter to MD/PhD adcoms (top 20 and I'm a Canadian citizen, at a Canadian university)? 2. Given my circumstances, do you think it is worth it?

 

[StilgarMD]

Here are my thoughts

1. Your major doesn't matter

2. Go with the "easier course load", both to maximize your GPA and give you plenty of time to do research.

3. If you look at the "What are my Chances?" thread written by Neuronix, you'll notice the factors most important to your admission to a good program are MCAT, GPA, and quality of Research. Honors doesn't matter. Being able to speak fluently and intelligently about a research project you played a large role in does.

4. I think your biggest obstacle, by far, will be your status as an international student. If you want to go to a "top 20", your chances will be best served by becoming a US citizen. I don't know how that works for Canadians, but it will be the only thing keeping you from needing stellar-everything to stand a chance. Do a thread search for "international" on this forum to see what I mean.

Good luck

 

[Fencer]

Ditto. Except minor correction for # 4.

4. "...served by becoming a US [permanent resident or] citizen."

 

[soporific]

Thanks for the response. I don't think it will be possible to get permanent residency, and my school is not one of the top in Canada (utoronto, mcgill, ubc). That's why I was wondering if I need every advantage I can get, such as honours.

 

[mynameistoolong]

Just do the first one, get as close as you can to a 4.0 and work your ass off to get a 40+ MCAT and publication(s).

Being on par with U.S. residents just won't cut it at all. I'm an international who did research all through undergrad, and have decent stats (3.75/39). Unfortunately, I have no publications. I applied to ~25 MD/PhD programs, and all I have so far is rejection after rejection. Not even an interview.

I did get an MD interview at Yale (who doesn't let internationals apply MSTP), so I don't think there are any red flags in my application. There is just an extremely strong bias against internationals, especially this year due to the budget sequestration. Canadians might be slightly better off, though.

I know people in this forum always say "publications don't matter, you just need to be able to talk about your research". That is probably true of residents, but I'm not so sure about internationals.

It might be a different story if you're willing to consider schools outside the top 20. The caveat is that those lower-ranked schools tend to be less friendly toward internationals.

Long story short: you're screwed either way as an international. If you're set on this path, work hard beyond humanely possible, and don't be bitter (like me) when you see residents with 3.6/34 MCAT get MSTP interviews everywhere while you have none.

 

[Reckoner]

Just do the first one, get as close as you can to a 4.0 and work your ass off to get a 40+ MCAT and publication(s).

Being on par with U.S. residents just won't cut it at all. I'm an international who did research all through undergrad, and have decent stats (3.75/39). Unfortunately, I have no publications. I applied to ~25 MD/PhD programs, and all I have so far is rejection after rejection. Not even an interview.

I did get an MD interview at Yale (who doesn't let internationals apply MSTP), so I don't think there are any red flags in my application. There is just an extremely strong bias against internationals, especially this year due to the budget sequestration. Canadians might be slightly better off, though.

I know people in this forum always say "publications don't matter, you just need to be able to talk about your research". That is probably true of residents, but I'm not so sure about internationals.

It might be a different story if you're willing to consider schools outside the top 20. The caveat is that those lower-ranked schools tend to be less friendly toward internationals.

Long story short: you're screwed either way as an international. If you're set on this path, work hard beyond humanely possible, and don't be bitter (like me) when you see residents with 3.6/34 MCAT get MSTP interviews everywhere while you have none.

Unless they're URM and/or have phenomenal research, this doesn't seem very realistic. I agree that you are in a tough situation, but it's not like this is easy for US citizens, either...

 

[mynameistoolong]

Unless they're URM and/or have phenomenal research, this doesn't seem very realistic. I agree that you are in a tough situation, but it's not like this is easy for US citizens, either...

No, of course not. They usually have at least one of the two things you mentioned. By no means am I saying it's easy for citizens/residents.

It's when you consider that these things aren't in your control&#8212;e.g. where you're born, or when people with <2 years of research end up with publications and you have none, even after working almost every weekday, and weekends sometimes, for more than 3 years, etc.&#8212;it just really frustrates me how unfair things are.

But that's life... Just gotta play the cards you're dealt 🙄

edit: sorry for hijacking the thread with my whining 😀 #firstworldproblems

 

[uniqenam]

No, of course not. They usually have at least one of the two things you mentioned. By no means am I saying it's easy for citizens/residents.

It's when you consider that these things aren't in your control—e.g. where you're born, or when people with <2 years of research end up with publications and you have none, even after working almost every weekday, and weekends sometimes, for more than 3 years, etc.—it just really frustrates me how unfair things are.

But that's life... Just gotta play the cards you're dealt 🙄

edit: sorry for hijacking the thread with my whining 😀 #firstworldproblems

The way I look at it, the only thing you have control over is how hard you work. You can't change how much innate intelligence you have, where you were born, how wealthy your parents were, what sort of environment they brought you up in, how lucky your research was, and what ethnicity you are; the only thing you can control is how you will work each day going forward. The harder you work, the better off you'll be.

I believe it was Pasteur that said "Luck favors the prepared mind". I know it's frustrating, and I guess it's easy for me to say as someone who got lucky with research (imo) and is a US citizen, but there's always going to be someone with advantages. You just have to make your own

 

[soporific]

I appreciate everyone's advice. I think I will stick to the BSc in biological sciences. Less lab courses = more time for research! 🙂

I'm looking at US schools as a slim shot that's worth taking - I will also apply to several Canadian schools although the research and funding aren't quite as good. Hopefully I will get in somewhere!