How much GPA matters?

[emno]

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Hi
Last sememter my GPA went down as I had some difficult subjects all at once. It is 3.3 now?

Is it a limitiation to get in MD program?

I have registered to KPLAN but postponed it as I want to concentrate on GPA right now.

I am a Jr with biology major and doing independent study research with a professor.

thanks in advance

 

[SN2ed]

A 3.3 cumulative GPA would hurt your chances. A 3.3 for one semester won't hurt you as long as your other semesters are solid. The degree to which such a cumulative GPA would hurt you depends on the school. Still, don't get discouraged, there are ways to nullify a low GPA (ECs, MCAT, etc).

 

[emno]

Thanks SN2ed.
One sememester I got 3.96 but this semester, I got less than 3 so my cummulative now is 3.3 and I feel uncomfortable.
I heared that some med universities in my state add extra GPA points for students from my university. Though I am not sure.

what is ECs?

Thanks again

 

[229141]

No one will add points to your GPA no matter where you go. They WILL take points off if you go to a school where you can get over 4.0 (they do this at Oregon for example..so all A+ are seen as 4.0 on AMCAS rather than 4.3).

There are many factors concerning if you get in or not...and you have to have the whole package or even a 4.0 is worthless...but I would say GPA is the single most important part of the application (Princeton Review also says this).

However, without a strong mcat and EC's a great gpa is nothing..

 

[emno]

then with a GPA of 3.3, what are my chances and how to increase my chances?

thanks

 

[Gemini11]

Your chances are 0% if you don't apply or try. Many students have been accepted with <3.3 gpa, however they must have had great EC's(extra-curriculars), a great mcat score, and most likely did really well at their interview.
Ways to increase your chances: Do well in all your classes from this point on and try to get as many A's as possible, study really hard for the mcats and get a great/ above average score, continue EC's and gain more clinical experience, and rock the interview.

 

[emno]

Thanks Gemini11
I am doing my level best to improve my GPA now.
One question: what is considered "great/ above average score" MCAT score?
thanks

 

[Gemini11]

I'm not too sure about the exact average score, but I believe the average MCAT score for allopathic medical school matriculants is around a 30.

However, applicants with a GPA< than the average 3.5 should aim for >32 MCAT imo. The average score might be different for osteopathic schools but either way both are becoming more competitive, so just study hard and get the highest score possible.

 

[229141]

Here is something totally arbitrary I made up...I just think its a good rule of thumb. It has no factual base whatsoever but I think it makes sense..

GPA/ Needed MCAT

3.9-4.0 31+
3.7-3.9 32+
3.6-3.7 33+
3.5-3.7 34+
Under 3.5 35..might not even be enough imo

 

[The Bearded One]

Getting into medical school is about as random as it gets. People that suck get in, and people that are amazing don't get in, and that is just the way is. Your goal is to try to make your application the best it can be without trying to compare yourself to some standard that is so difficult to define. If you want to be a doctor, you must be willing to devote your life to that pursuit.

Keep making yourself better until you get in. Do well on the MCAT, and if you think your GPA is lacking, go do an accelerated masters program and get a 4.0, then apply again. If you really want to be in medicine, an extra year or two of school shouldn't be a big deal. You will be a student for the rest of your life anyway.

 

[Gemini11]

I definitely agree with the post above. Even with stellar grades and MCAT scores there is absolute no guarantee that you will even receive an interview. An applicant with a <3.5 gpa and average MCAT could get an interview and eventually be accepted if they've had a special life experience. I believe the way you set yourself apart from other applicants is most important. Medical school acceptance is definately not contingent solely on gpa and MCAT. Just try your best with whatever your stats may be and if the field of medicine is really where you want to be, you will get there. With great dedication, even if you fail mulitple times, you will succeed eventually.

 

[Maygyver]

I'm sure one bad quarter shouldn't drop you that much. Just try to finish your career with straight A's and go from there. As someone mentioned you have a 0% chance if you don't even try.

 

[elyswim]

Unfortunately trying costs thousands of dollars 🙁

 

[Maygyver]

Just self study then. If you do well on the MCAT go ahead and apply, if not, well then it's up to you.

 

[bellakk]

Besides, of course, rockin the MCAT, another important factor to consider about your low(er)-gpa semester is how you will explain it in your applications. Take responsibility for you actions and not on external circumstances, explain what happened and why this wont happen again. A low semester GPA won't make or break your application, esp if you show an upward trend from there.
In your personal statement and then in your interviews, the committee wants to be convicned that this experience will make you a better doctor.

 

[229141]

The GPA and the MCAT are the single most important factors, no debate. If you had to pick ONE factor it is GPA...because it is MUCH harder to get in with a 3.0 and 40 MCAT than it is to get in with a 4.0 and 29 MCAT. The point is GPA and MCAT are your foundation...without a solid foundation you don't have much of anything.

That being said...a foundation alone is not a well built house..

 

[elyswim]

No one will add points to your GPA no matter where you go. They WILL take points off if you go to a school where you can get over 4.0 (they do this at Oregon for example..so all A+ are seen as 4.0 on AMCAS rather than 4.3).

There are many factors concerning if you get in or not...and you have to have the whole package or even a 4.0 is worthless...but I would say GPA is the single most important part of the application (Princeton Review also says this).

However, without a strong mcat and EC's a great gpa is nothing..

While they won't add points to your GPA, med schools most definitely take the undergrad school you went to into account. My premed dean showed me the stats for my school (notoriously difficult undergrad premed curriculum). Of 2008 applicants 40% of applicants who had a 3.0 were accepted. 70% who had a 3.5 were accepted, and 95.5% of those who had a 3.8-4.0 were accepted. So if it's a similar situation at your school, go ask the pre-med deans about matriculating stats (they should have them). This, as you all know, is significantly different than the national average.

 

[Vihsadas]

The GPA and the MCAT are the single most important factors, no debate. If you had to pick ONE factor it is GPA...because it is MUCH harder to get in with a 3.0 and 40 MCAT than it is to get in with a 4.0 and 29 MCAT. The point is GPA and MCAT are your foundation...without a solid foundation you don't have much of anything.

That being said...a foundation alone is not a well built house..

I would probably argue that the MCAT is more important. And the reason is simple: There are simply less people who get 37+ on the MCAT than students who have a 3.95+ GPA. Note that I am not implying in any way shape or form that a higher MCAT is a better indicator of intelligence, or preparedness for medschool or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that that Medical schools need a way objectively compare every applicant, and the MCAT gives them that. So because 37+ is so much rarer than a 4.0, it's probably a more desireable trait for a medical school. The MSAR seems to agree, although not conclusively. In 2007, about 3000+ with a 3.875 or higher were not accepted, yet less than 100 people with a 37+ or higher were not accepted (i.e. me, lol). Now I realize that less people at the high end of the MCAT were accepted than thos at the high end of the GPA, but that is telling in and of itself. If you have an MSAR, you can look at the shape of the graphs of "Accepted" "Not Accepted" and "All applicants" for teh total GPA and the total MCAT score, and you can see that the MCAT is (expectedly) more or less a normal distribution in all three graphs, while the GPA shows a clear bias toward 4.0 (i.e. more people who apply to medical school have higher GPAs rather than higher MCAT). This makes sense since the MCAT is specifically designed so that not too many people can do extremely well on it.

 

[229141]

I would probably argue that the MCAT is more important. And the reason is simple: There are simply less people who get 37+ on the MCAT than students who have a 3.95+ GPA. Note that I am not implying in any way shape or form that a higher MCAT is a better indicator of intelligence, or preparedness for medschool or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that that Medical schools need a way objectively compare every applicant, and the MCAT gives them that. So because 37+ is so much rarer than a 4.0, it's probably a more desireable trait for a medical school. The MSAR seems to agree, although not conclusively. In 2007, about 3000+ with a 3.875 or higher were not accepted, yet less than 100 people with a 37+ or higher were not accepted (i.e. me, lol). Now I realize that less people at the high end of the MCAT were accepted than thos at the high end of the GPA, but that is telling in and of itself. If you have an MSAR, you can look at the shape of the graphs of "Accepted" "Not Accepted" and "All applicants" for teh total GPA and the total MCAT score, and you can see that the MCAT is (expectedly) more or less a normal distribution in all three graphs, while the GPA shows a clear bias toward 4.0 (i.e. more people who apply to medical school have higher GPAs rather than higher MCAT). This makes sense since the MCAT is specifically designed so that not too many people can do extremely well on it.

Yes- I'd have to agree with that for sure. Plus everyone takes (essentially..) the same MCAT..GPA varies based on sooo many things. For example...I had an easy Calc 2 teacher and pulled an A, while my friend had this crazy guy that failed over half the class.

As others call it MCATs the "Great Equalizer"

 

[emno]

Thanks. It gives me some confidenance to me now. Actually there some crazy professors in my college who take pride in telling they in their class 1/2 the students fail.
I happen to have tow of these teachers and they screwed my gpa very bad.
but I feel that there is still some hope.

 

[radon222]

Hands down GPA is more important. Where you went to school, what your major was and your schedule difficulty are included as well. The reason GPA is number 1 is that is a consistent predictor of your academic ability. Med schools need to know that you can handle the tough course load.

MCAT score is important and is a good predictor of your USMLE Step 1 and 2 scores.

 

[Dr McSteamy]

take home lesson is:

take the easiest classes you can, and get all A's.

med schools really don't know how hard your classes are, especially if you don't go to a name-brand ivy school.
don't believe that bull. Med school is filled with kids that didn't go to ivys
Yes, they know some. but not most.

but you should also backup your 3.9998473 GPA with a decent mcat score.

that, and you're set.

You can't say that the MCAT matters the most because if you have a 35 mcat, and a 3.0 GPA, you have a slim chance of getting into med school. Trust me.

But if you have a 3.9 gpa, and a 30 mcat, or even 29 mcat.... you still have a pretty good chance.

This only applies to MD schools. DO schools are easier to get into.

 

[radon222]

I usually only tell my students this but....

MCAT + GPA(10) > 67

If you meet this, you are a solid candidate for medical school. It is your undergraduate GPA as standardized on the application (no A- or B+).

 

[Dr McSteamy]

Confucius says:

go to the best schools, and take the easiest classes.

actually, just take the easiest classes! no matter where you are.

People used to tell me that taking harder classes would impress the adcoms. Bullsh.t.
This false notion has been propagated by generations upon generations of students. A "B" in advanced bio-whatever 301 is not gonna impress anyone.
The only thing it will do is lower your gpa.

Some adcoms will give you a bonus fraction of a GPA point for going to a top tier school. but don't count on it.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

It depends on what school you went also. I am pretty sure that most schools would take an applicant that has a 3.8 and 31 from Berkeley or Hopkins, instead of someone with a 3.8 AND 35 from < top 50 schools.

 

[yessira]

It depends on what school you went also. I am pretty sure that most schools would take an applicant that has a 3.8 and 31 from Berkeley or Hopkins, instead of someone with a 3.8 AND 35 from < top 50 schools.

I agree that the school you went to matters, but I definitely disagree with your example. What good is Berkeley or Hopkins education if you cant beat a guy from <top 50 school in the same exact test. The very reason they even have the mcat is to compensate for school-to-school variables.

 

[Vihsadas]

I usually only tell my students this but....

MCAT + GPA(10) > 67

If you meet this, you are a solid candidate for medical school. It is your undergraduate GPA as standardized on the application (no A- or B+).

The formula you just posted is known on SDN as "The LizzyM score". There are more than a few threads about it already discussing its validity and what not.
Also, the standardized GPA on the application does include A- and B+. The AMCAS GPA scale is:
A/A+ = 4.0
A- = 3.7
B+ = 3.3
B = 3.0
B- = 2.7
C+ = 2.3
C = 2.0
C- = 1.7
D+ = 1.3
D = 1.0
D- = .7
F = 0

 

[Rubisco]

How do the AMCAS grade scale adjust to schools without minus grades? I know at my school there are no minus grades and a B+ = 3.5 , C+ = 2.5. AMCAS will convert my B + to a 3.3 instead of 3.5, but isn't it unfair that other students get A- (3.7) and for my school the equivalent would be an A (4.0) since no minus grades exist?

 

[Vihsadas]

How do the AMCAS grade scale adjust to schools without minus grades? I know at my school there are no minus grades and a B+ = 3.5 , C+ = 2.5. AMCAS will convert my B + to a 3.3 instead of 3.5, but isn't it unfair that other students get A- (3.7) and for my school the equivalent would be an A (4.0) since no minus grades exist?

It's not explicitly stated here: http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/2008amcasgradeconversionguide.pdf

But it sounds as if your university uses the same number of grade divisions as the A, AB, B, BC, C, CD, D, DF, F scale. And in that scale an "AB" is a 3.5, kind of like your B+. I don't know how AMCAS will view your transcript, but there's a chance that you will only get a 3.3 for a B+ if they are not careful. I'd call and ask to make sure.

 

[emno]

Thanks Vihsdas
I will go throuth the PDG. It is very detailed. My school gives A, A+,A-,B,B-,B+ grades.

some of my science teachers are crazy and they take pride in telling the class that 1/2 of their class fail.

I am hoping for the best. May be go for grad school and then try for mcat.

 

[emno]

Thanks guys for replying to my post.
I have been working very hard but somehow my Cel Biology grdaes are not improving and I am afrad that I may end up with a D.
It is very scary now.
Should I just drop the idea of MD/
I have been a very good student all alone but some professor are so hard in my school. and I am afraid that I amy end up with a 3 GPA.

 

[junkct]

Just out of curiosity, are there any med schools that consider A+ as 4.3?

 

[Vihsadas]

Just out of curiosity, are there any med schools that consider A+ as 4.3?

No, because on your AMCAS an A+ will show up as a 4.0 and that's what the medical school will see.

 

[junkct]

No, because on your AMCAS an A+ will show up as a 4.0 and that's what the medical school will see.

doesn't your transcript go to medical schools as well? I've heard of some schools recalculating the gpa because they don't like the way amcas does it... or maybe i'm wrong?

 

[Caesar]

Moving to WAMC.

 

[drizzt3117]

doesn't your transcript go to medical schools as well? I've heard of some schools recalculating the gpa because they don't like the way amcas does it... or maybe i'm wrong?

Nope, med schools don't get the transcripts, some med schools request the official transcripts, though.

 

[Vihsadas]

Nope, med schools don't get the transcripts, some med schools request the official transcripts, though.

Yeah exactly. You usually only have to send transcripts to schools after you've been accepted already.

 

[STLINI]

No one will add points to your GPA no matter where you go. They WILL take points off if you go to a school where you can get over 4.0 (they do this at Oregon for example..so all A+ are seen as 4.0 on AMCAS rather than 4.3).

There are many factors concerning if you get in or not...and you have to have the whole package or even a 4.0 is worthless...but I would say GPA is the single most important part of the application (Princeton Review also says this).

However, without a strong mcat and EC's a great gpa is nothing..

My dad was actually told by an MD who had served on an admissions committee at a state med school that they add .25 to GPAs coming from the flagship state U and certain private schools when comparing to other state universities. Take that for what its worth.

 

[junkct]

Yeah exactly. You usually only have to send transcripts to schools after you've been accepted already.

bummer 🙁 so I guess they won't see all my A+'s

it sucks coz I actually have more A+'s than As

..i mean, not to sound like a prick or anything

oh god I'm gonna get so much crap for that one...

 

[baller99]

does that mean that adcoms will only see your coursework order once you're accepted? for instance, i took the 2nd sem of bio before the 1st, would they be able to tell that or would they just see that i took bio??

 

[Vihsadas]

does that mean that adcoms will only see your coursework order once you're accepted? for instance, i took the 2nd sem of bio before the 1st, would they be able to tell that or would they just see that i took bio??

No. You send your transcripts to AMCAS and they re-enter your coursework into your AMCAS application. Adcoms can then see your entire chronology and your grades, but the GPA is re-calculated by AMCAS according to their protocols. Schools almost never take the time to re-re-calculate your GPA based on their own scale; they just use the scale and GPA calculations that AMCAS did.

 

[kevenka]

Hmm...If GPA is one of the biggest factors...should I just go to a smaller university and get A's there instead? I was also planning to continue taking 17 hours workload but get A's and B's b/c I thought it kind of shows I can handle that kind of schoolwork...but if they only look at the GPA and not what I did....I kind of feel compelled to go to a weaker university just to increase my chances 🙁

 

[junkct]

Hmm...If GPA is one of the biggest factors...should I just go to a smaller university and get A's there instead? I was also planning to continue taking 17 hours workload but get A's and B's b/c I thought it kind of shows I can handle that kind of schoolwork...but if they only look at the GPA and not what I did....I kind of feel compelled to go to a weaker university just to increase my chances 🙁

Go wherever you think you'll be happiest, but I'm sure most would agree that it's better to go to a "weaker" university and get a 3.8 than to go to a "stronger" university and get a 3.4

 

[samaRAWR]

So then the only few things medical schools see when you apply are your GPA, MCAT, ECs, etc and not your individual grades in each course? So, if a student received a terrible grade in a prerequisite, such as chem or bio or phys, the medical school he or she applies to will have no idea as long as their GPA was very high, steller MCAT, and amazing ECs, and LORs?

Sorry if I seem clueless...it's just that this is news to me🙂

 

[Stratego]

So then the only few things medical schools see when you apply are your GPA, MCAT, ECs, etc and not your individual grades in each course? So, if a student received a terrible grade in a prerequisite, such as chem or bio or phys, the medical school he or she applies to will have no idea as long as their GPA was very high, steller MCAT, and amazing ECs, and LORs?

Your entire transcript is on your application. If you got a terrible grade on a prerequisite, it will be noticed. That's why most people repeat such courses to show they can do better.

 

[Stratego]

does that mean that adcoms will only see your coursework order once you're accepted? for instance, i took the 2nd sem of bio before the 1st, would they be able to tell that or would they just see that i took bio??

Adcomms will see all the coursework that was certified by AMCAS when you applied, which includes the year you took a course and term in which you took it ( like Semester1, or Semester2). Only the school you choose to attend will see your final transcript with all your college grades.

 

[samaRAWR]

So were previous posts incorrect then in saying only medical school that have accepted you will see your transcripts?

 

[Mobius1985]

Only the medical school you decide to attend and to which you personally send a final officvial transcript will see your entire transcript.

All med schools to which you apply can see the AMCAS-listed transcript summary of what you sent to AMCAS at the time you submitted your application (because it is part of the application package along with your PS and extracurriculars).

 

[junkct]

I think there's a bit of a miscommunication between everyone haha

the med schools you apply to won't see your transcript, but they'll see your gpa (as calculated by amcas), the courses you took, and the grades you got for each course (including repeats I'm assuming). When people say that med schools don't see your transcript, this is true because your transcript itself only goes to amcas. amcas recalculates your gpa according to their standards and puts together a document of your coursework, grades, etc. which is then sent out to med schools. So while your schools don't see your "official" transcript, they see pretty much all the information that's on your transcript in regards to grades, courses, etc.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as this was told to me by one of my friends.

 

[kevenka]

Well, the thing that is bothering me the most is...do they even care which university we came from or just our GPA, MCAT, and EC? B/c I know for a fact my university, University of Texas at Austin, permit retakes on courses but the highest I can get is the average of the two grades so an A + C will give me an average of a B...while a school like UTA (university of Texas at Arlington) would replace the C with an A... It makes me wonder if I am choosing the wrong school to become an M.D...

P.S. can anyone please explain why Medical school is harder to get into than D.O.? If they learn practically the same thing, shouldn't both of them be equally competitive? -Sorry if this has already been answered but I am a bit new to this network 😳