how much harder does OMM make your life?

[minst]

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hey i am a premed hoping to apply to both MD and DO. I am submitting my accomass application soon.

I am just wondering, how much does OMM take up from your time compared to an MD student if you had to guess?
Does taking comlex 1/2 hinder your ability to do well on step 1/2?
is there a lot of simliairteis between the two? can u study only for step 1 adn do well on comlex? what about step 2?

thanks

 

[DO2015CA]

It doesn’t. It exists and so time is spent on it making it technically a negative effect. But it’s so extremely small that it’s negligible. Those that fail the class are making themselves martyrs in protest. It’s not hard to memorize whatever bs and move along with your life.

 

[pigsinacloth]

I hate OMM. I legit think that it's fake. I will never do it in my practice and I have told all my family and friends that if a doc offers it to you that you should walk out of their office on the spot. That being said, it's not difficult. You go to lab, you have some extra exams, you need to spend 15-20 minutes of every day during your boards prep time reviewing it, but it's not that bad. I am sure if you added up the time I spent you could say something like wow that's 100 hours that could have been spent doing something of value, but realistically I doubt I would have been that efficient.

When you start getting interviews you can try to figure out from SDN what schools make it super difficult and which schools make it more chill.

 

[TUWEST_509]

It really depends on the person. Some people walk through OMM classes like it’s nothing. Barely study for it and pass with flying colors. Some spend hours and hours studying for it but still do poorly. I’ve known students who aced all their other classes but had to repeat the year because they couldn’t pass OMM remediation. I’ve found that people who are good with spatial visualization do very well with OMM. If you are one of the unlucky few who struggle with that, then get ready to spend hours studying for OMM on top of your already insane workload.

End of the day, OMM will take time away from your other studies or relaxing time you could have had at an MD school, but it just depends on how much time based on the student. It’s just another DO tax you have to pay.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I studied for other classes during omm labs and just crammed the weekend before for the tests and practicals. So even though I had 4 hours per week of omm the first two years, it was really more like 30 minutes. Probably 4-8 hours studying for the exams the weekend before.

So it sucks but it’s not unreasonable.

 

[picklelittle]

I guess it school depended. It isn't much of hindrance. If you have get teachers you will get the technique in lab then before the exam get with your classmates and practice the techniques. Some people are really good at it and others aren't. I don't know anyone who has failed. I heard people study it for 2 weeks before comlex and do fine. Some people see it as waste but there is some benefits to some it.

 

[minst]

When you start getting interviews you can try to figure out from SDN what schools make it super difficult and which schools make it more chill.

do you have a list in mind of the chill ones

 

[pigsinacloth]

do you have a list in mind of the chill ones

I do not. You can search through the old school forums and figure out which ones act like it's the best thing in the world. I went to CCOM, which is fairly chill about it. I have other issues with that school, but the OMM department is not one of my main concerns beyond its simple existence.

 

[MateoGM416]

When you start getting interviews you can try to figure out from SDN what schools make it super difficult and which schools make it more chill.

This. When you do interviews ask the students how many hours of OMM they do per week. Some schools do the bare minimum while some schools like AT Still do like 8 hours a week.

Another thing to consider is that by the time you take boards, you will be so good at OMM that the OMM questions you get which are like ~5-10% of COMLEX are basically free points.

 

[minst]

I do not. You can search through the old school forums and figure out which ones act like it's the best thing in the world. I went to CCOM, which is fairly chill about it. I have other issues with that school, but the OMM department is not one of my main concerns beyond its simple existence.

so besides omm how are DO schools different than MD schools (in the sense that it makes it harder for you to match)? is it getting extra curricular clerkship and good LOR? Because thats the only thing that i can think of

 

[Ho0v-man]

This. When you do interviews ask the students how many hours of OMM they do per week. Some schools do the bare minimum while some schools like AT Still do like 8 hours a week.

Another thing to consider is that by the time you take boards, you will be so good at OMM that the OMM questions you get which are like ~5-10% of COMLEX are basically free points.

I’m an atsu alum and this isn’t close to true. When I was there, it was 4 hours per week but I’ve heard it’s gone down since those days.

so besides omm how are DO schools different than MD schools (in the sense that it makes it harder for you to match)? is it getting extra curricular clerkship and good LOR? Because thats the only thing that i can think of

Not the person you asked but it’s more about Cv building and lor. My friends at MD schools were assigned mentors to help them build the necessary app needed for competitive specialties. At a DO school, you figure that out on your own and any research, aways, or letters are obtained by you instead of your school facilitating it.

 

[minst]

Not the person you asked but it’s more about Cv building and lor. My friends at MD schools were assigned mentors to help them build the necessary app needed for competitive specialties. At a DO school, you figure that out on your own and any research, aways, or letters are obtained by you instead of your school facilitating it.

for specalites like gen surg, anethesiology and radiology, do you think this stuff makes a huge difference?
I could totally be wrong because im not in med school but it still doesnt sound like that big of a deal.

i think transitional research is a requirment for all osteopathic school so getting research deosnt seem like much of a problem.
Getting anestehsiology/radiology clerkship + good LORs mighty be tricky. OMM doesnt sound like it takes too much time

Overall seems to me like if u wanna apply to community programs for those specalites being MD or DO doesnt make too much of a differnce (again i could very likley be wrong idk i have yet to experince the process)
did u feel like your life would have been made a lot easier matching to radiology if u were in MD? if so why? Is it finding good LOR?

 

[Ho0v-man]

for specalites like gen surg, anethesiology and radiology, do you think this stuff makes a huge difference?
I could totally be wrong because im not in med school but it still doesnt sound like that big of a deal.

i think transitional research is a requirment for all osteopathic school so getting research deosnt seem like much of a problem.
Getting anestehsiology/radiology clerkship + good LORs mighty be tricky. OMM doesnt sound like it takes too much time

Overall seems to me like if u wanna apply to community programs for those specalites being MD or DO doesnt make too much of a differnce (again i could very likley be wrong idk i have yet to experince the process)
did u feel like your life would have been made a lot easier matching to radiology if u were in MD? if so why? Is it finding good LOR?

Getting research is an issue bc you have to go out of your way to do it by reaching out to other med schools.

Not a huge difference in rads/anesthesia since they care more about scores, letters, and clinical grades more than research. But you’ll probably get better letters from someone you’ve been working with on projects for a couple years then someone you’ve done one rotation with as an away. Also, you’re other letters like from IM or whatever else also matter. I’ve heard comments about how DOs always seem to have letters from random preceptors instead of people affiliated with resident education. Makes your whole app carry less weight.

It would have been easier matching radiology as an MD. Name on your letters matter. The letterhead on those letters matter. Your school name matters. Not in a real world way. I’ve worked with “top” med students and there’s really no difference. But everyone wants their residency program to look shiny. So they pick the shiniest applicants. And you start off a little less shiny as a DO.

I still matched to a great program and I think my school trained me well overall. But I could have been more selective with location if I was an MD. If you’re open to community programs and geographically flexible, these fields are very obtainable.

 

[pigsinacloth]

for specalites like gen surg, anethesiology and radiology, do you think this stuff makes a huge difference?
I could totally be wrong because im not in med school but it still doesnt sound like that big of a deal.

i think transitional research is a requirment for all osteopathic school so getting research deosnt seem like much of a problem.
Getting anestehsiology/radiology clerkship + good LORs mighty be tricky. OMM doesnt sound like it takes too much time

Overall seems to me like if u wanna apply to community programs for those specalites being MD or DO doesnt make too much of a differnce (again i could very likley be wrong idk i have yet to experince the process)
did u feel like your life would have been made a lot easier matching to radiology if u were in MD? if so why? Is it finding good LOR?

DO schools do nothing for you other than sign the paperwork that says "yes so and so met the requirements to be a doctor". Everything else is on your own essentially. You want to get into a good residency program you have to find research and study your butt off to do well on boards. You need to work extra hard on rotations in the sense of knowing whats going on so that the preceptors like you and give you more oppertunities to shine. That way you can look good on your aways and get good LORs throughout.

MD schools don't do this for you, but they keep you insulated in an institution who will help you with this which is why it's easier.

 

[Dorsey DO]

DO schools do nothing for you other than sign the paperwork that says "yes so and so met the requirements to be a doctor". Everything else is on your own essentially. You want to get into a good residency program you have to find research and study your butt off to do well on boards. You need to work extra hard on rotations in the sense of knowing whats going on so that the preceptors like you and give you more oppertunities to shine. That way you can look good on your aways and get good LORs throughout.

MD schools don't do this for you, but they keep you insulated in an institution who will help you with this which is why it's easier.

Straight facts.

MD- you're one of us. We will help you
DO- Gimme your $$$, and follow the order, or else we'll ruin your career.

 

[DO2015CA]

Straight facts.

MD- you're one of us. We will help you
DO- Gimme your $$$, and follow the order, or else we'll ruin your career.

There couldn’t be a more accurate assessment imo

 

[Goro]

hey i am a premed hoping to apply to both MD and DO. I am submitting my accomass application soon.

I am just wondering, how much does OMM take up from your time compared to an MD student if you had to guess?
Does taking comlex 1/2 hinder your ability to do well on step 1/2?
is there a lot of simliairteis between the two? can u study only for step 1 adn do well on comlex? what about step 2?

thanks

My students can handle omm, and comlex and still match fine.

 

[chattechatte]

hey i am a premed hoping to apply to both MD and DO. I am submitting my accomass application soon.

I am just wondering, how much does OMM take up from your time compared to an MD student if you had to guess?
Does taking comlex 1/2 hinder your ability to do well on step 1/2?
is there a lot of simliairteis between the two? can u study only for step 1 adn do well on comlex? what about step 2?

thanks

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I literally just started my first week at a DO program (obviously giving myself away since I dont think any other schools started lol). Our OMM lab is 1.5 hours per week. We've had about 6 hours of lecture so far and a lot of the content wasn't info I'll use just in OMM but stuff that is beneficial elsewhere (anatomy!). Per our M2/3 mentors, because OMM is longitudinal and the final is cumulative it is pretty easy to prep for both comlex and step1 since it is already built in our schedule to prep for the OMM portion of comlex. I think they said ~1 in 5 questions on COMLEX is OMM. My school has a lot of the top question writers for comlex and one of our instructors literally wrote the atlas lol, so we do get some help given that we are pretty set up for how the questions will be!

 

[DOFOSHO]

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I literally just started my first week at a DO program (obviously giving myself away since I dont think any other schools started lol). Our OMM lab is 1.5 hours per week. We've had about 6 hours of lecture so far and a lot of the content wasn't info I'll use just in OMM but stuff that is beneficial elsewhere (anatomy!). Per our M2/3 mentors, because OMM is longitudinal and the final is cumulative it is pretty easy to prep for both comlex and step1 since it is already built in our schedule to prep for the OMM portion of comlex. I think they said ~1 in 5 questions on COMLEX is OMM. My school has a lot of the top question writers for comlex and one of our instructors literally wrote the atlas lol, so we do get some help given that we are pretty set up for how the questions will be!

the anatomy learned in OMM is clinically irrelevant.

 

[DO2015CA]

the anatomy learned in OMM is clinically irrelevant.

Wait a minute.. are you sure?

 

[Goro]

the anatomy learned in OMM is clinically irrelevant.

My own students would beg to disagree.

Except Chapman's points. They don't exist. And the damn cranial bones do not move!

 

[jrichardson21]

Hopefully your program would do like ours did for year one, and try to match up anatomy and OMM (as much as one can, really), so what you're seeing in anatomy lab is what you're working on in the OMM lab.

 

[chattechatte]

the anatomy learned in OMM is clinically irrelevant.

I beg to differ, I think learning basic skeletal and muscle anatomy during OMM lecture could be helpful for future more in-depth lectures on gross anatomy, especially for those who didn't take anatomy prior to matriculation

 

[GCU_Grey_Area]

My own students would beg to disagree.

Except Chapman's points. They don't exist. And the damn cranial bones do not move!

How did this even happen? The idea of a degree that actually lets you practice medicine requiring learning structures that we absolutely know don't exist and likewise for mechanisms that just don't happen is crazy to me. It's like if a biochemistry program taught vitalism or a physics program taught luminiferous aether.

 

[Goro]

How did this even happen? The idea of a degree that actually lets you practice medicine requiring learning structures that we absolutely know don't exist and likewise for mechanisms that just don't happen is crazy to me. It's like if a biochemistry program taught vitalism or a physics program taught luminiferous aether.

It seems to be a holdover from the days of when Osteopathy was a cult of Still.

How fully your generation can put a stake through the hearts of the things.

 

[pigsinacloth]

How did this even happen? The idea of a degree that actually lets you practice medicine requiring learning structures that we absolutely know don't exist and likewise for mechanisms that just don't happen is crazy to me. It's like if a biochemistry program taught vitalism or a physics program taught luminiferous aether.

It’s from the generation of DOs that rightfully so were not legally allowed to practice medicine, as they were clearly not capable of science or real thought.Thank goodness some people a generation after actually tried real medicine. Unfortunately it’s not going away anytime soon. There are still people who believe it and will continue to work at DO schools to keep it alive. The rest of us who actually practice medicine will make sure our students and residents know it’s fake, but some will slip through the cracks.

That being said I’m on record of saying all OMM is fake and that anyone who practices it should have their license to prescribe drugs revoked.

 

[Ho0v-man]

How did this even happen? The idea of a degree that actually lets you practice medicine requiring learning structures that we absolutely know don't exist and likewise for mechanisms that just don't happen is crazy to me. It's like if a biochemistry program taught vitalism or a physics program taught luminiferous aether.

Osteopathic schools need to have X amount of OMM faculty for accreditation purposes. Because the pool of people who can practice OMM at a medical school without feeling like they’ve wasted their lives is vanishingly small, most of the academic OMM people are at least somewhat well known to one another in this subsection of osteopathic leadership, particularly if they did an NMM residency.

So the people doing this actually have clout in some ridiculous way. Their skills are in demand. Throwing out the parts of OMM that are silly limits their job security and power. Furthermore, getting rid of even the dumbest parts like Chapman’s points and cranial omt is a slippery slope for them. If we only focused on the parts of OMT that have any value, we’d easily cut the course load in half. If you’ve committed your life to a job paying a physician salary with bankers hours and none of the negatives of medicine like emergencies, liability, malpractice, etc then what is your incentive to get rid of any OMM? While I’d love to have a manipulation here and there, these skills are hardly in demand and making a decent physician salary on pure OMM is bordering a day of hard labor.

TLDR; incoming life lesson about every frustrating and stupid thing in medicine and in life in general:

If it doesn’t make sense, it probably makes money.

 

[Goro]

Osteopathic schools need to have X amount of OMM faculty for accreditation purposes. Because the pool of people who can practice OMM at a medical school without feeling like they’ve wasted their lives is vanishingly small, most of the academic OMM people are at least somewhat well known to one another in this subsection of osteopathic leadership, particularly if they did an NMM residency.

So the people doing this actually have clout in some ridiculous way. Their skills are in demand. Throwing out the parts of OMM that are silly limits their job security and power. Furthermore, getting rid of even the dumbest parts like Chapman’s points and cranial omt is a slippery slope for them. If we only focused on the parts of OMT that have any value, we’d easily cut the course load in half. If you’ve committed your life to a job paying a physician salary with bankers hours and none of the negatives of medicine like emergencies, liability, malpractice, etc then what is your incentive to get rid of any OMM? While I’d love to have a manipulation here and there, these skills are hardly in demand and making a decent physician salary on pure OMM is bordering a day of hard labor.

TLDR; incoming life lesson about every frustrating and stupid thing in medicine and in life in general:

If it doesn’t make sense, it probably makes money.

In reality, an omm specialist who practices in any will to do community will be as successful as any plastic surgeon or dermatologist.

And all they will need is an omn table, and so their overhead will be a lot less too.

 

[Ho0v-man]

If you could make plastic surgery money doing OMM, then people would do it. That money is not there, despite what omt faculty say.

 

[pigsinacloth]

If you could make plastic surgery money doing OMM, then people would do it. That money is not there, despite what omt faculty say.

This is very true. Especially the generation of physicians who just entered residency. Most of my classmates only cared about money and actually hate medicine. They like the power and the prestige as well, but I had one classmate who just kept asking me how much cardiologists make (which I would just google) then I would say a number and he would respond "sweet". He is a disgusting human. I had to rotate with him for a month and the way he talked about patients, especially those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds made me sick to my stomach.

 

[DOFOSHO]

I beg to differ, I think learning basic skeletal and muscle anatomy during OMM lecture could be helpful for future more in-depth lectures on gross anatomy, especially for those who didn't take anatomy prior to matriculation

 

[GCU_Grey_Area]

I beg to differ, I think learning basic skeletal and muscle anatomy during OMM lecture could be helpful for future more in-depth lectures on gross anatomy, especially for those who didn't take anatomy prior to matriculation

This is like going to bat for Lamarckism because there might be a few incidental similarities to epigenetics. No curriculum based in known pseudoscience can be a good thing for students to be learning. Even if there is substantiated material within OMM, surely it would be better to just teach that part within the context of an evidence-based curriculum without the inclusion of the pseudoscience?

 

[Ho0v-man]

This is like going to bat for Lamarckism because there might be a few incidental similarities to epigenetics. No curriculum based in known pseudoscience can be a good thing for students to be learning. Even if there is substantiated material within OMM, surely it would be better to just teach that part within the context of an evidence-based curriculum without the inclusion of the pseudoscience?

It’s July of OMS-1. Let him/her enjoy it while they can.

I beg to differ, I think learning basic skeletal and muscle anatomy during OMM lecture could be helpful for future more in-depth lectures on gross anatomy, especially for those who didn't take anatomy prior to matriculation

Here’s my (and most DO students) experience with OMM:

1st semester: I’m gonna have an open mind about all this. Some hands on application of the anatomy I’m learning can’t hurt. Always good to have an extra something in the tool belt.

2nd semester: Ok so this isn’t really my thing. But I’m gonna do my best anyway. It’s on my boards after all and maybe it’ll occasionally be useful in practice.

3rd semester: I don’t care…

4th semester: I super don’t care. Are those plungers? Get me out of here!

Nearing dedicated: LEAVE ME ALONE!!!

I forgot it existed after that lol. I was surprised on both level 2 and level 3 to see OMM questions bc I forgot to study it both times🤣 (this part is unique to me)

 

[Goro]

It’s July of OMS-1. Let him/her enjoy it while they can.



Here’s my (and most DO students) experience with OMM:

1st semester: I’m gonna have an open mind about all this. Some hands on application of the anatomy I’m learning can’t hurt. Always good to have an extra something in the tool belt.

2nd semester: Ok so this isn’t really my thing. But I’m gonna do my best anyway. It’s on my boards after all and maybe it’ll occasionally be useful in practice.

3rd semester: I don’t care…

4th semester: I super don’t care. Are those plungers? Get me out of here!

Nearing dedicated: LEAVE ME ALONE!!!

I forgot it existed after that lol. I was surprised on both level 2 and level 3 to see OMM questions bc I forgot to study it both times🤣 (this part is unique to me)

Plungers???

LMU, then. That's not OMT, that's sheer quackery.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Plungers???

LMU, then. That's not OMT, that's sheer quackery.

Not lmu in my case. But I’ve heard about it from multiple people from a bunch of schools. In my case it was near the end of one of our last days. I immediately walked out. It was the final straw for me. I had a high enough grade to lose attendance points and pass if I never went again so that’s what I did.

 

[DO2015CA]

Plungers???

LMU, then. That's not OMT, that's sheer quackery.

Not at LMU for me either and we didn’t do it in class but one of the attendings would use them for myofascial release in the student clinic

 

[Goro]

Not at LMU for me either and we didn’t do it in class but one of the attendings would use them for myofascial release in the student clinic

Thank Gawd my OMM friends are more enlightened!

 

[DO2015CA]

Thank Gawd my OMM friends are more enlightened!

“The suction allows you to engage the fascia and it’s easier on your hands”

 

[Goro]

Just remember, for all the annoyance that the omm classes may give you, once you're in attending your salary will be the same as your md colleagues in your specialty

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Just remember, for all the annoyance that the omm classes may give you, once you're in attending your salary will be the same as your md colleagues in your specialty

Depends if it doesn’t hold you back from getting speciality you want thoufg

 

[DO2015CA]

Depends if it doesn’t hold you back from getting speciality you want thoufg

That is the if and it might be true based on what you want… having said that, the majority of MDs also go into specialties that are attainable for DOs. They go to higher tier training programs (thus perhaps opening fellowships that lower tiers won’t open) but when the end specialty is the same, they are equal pay.

 

[Goro]

Depends if it doesn’t hold you back from getting speciality you want thoufg

That's on you.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

That's on you.

Not if OMM takes up 50% of your time. Thats a curriculum thing

 

[ToKingdomCome]

That is the if and it might be true based on what you want… having said that, the majority of MDs also go into specialties that are attainable for DOs. They go to higher tier training programs (thus perhaps opening fellowships that lower tiers won’t open) but when the end specialty is the same, they are equal pay.

The issue isn’t DO vs MD pay. The issue is specialists pay

 

[jrichardson21]

Not if OMM takes up 50% of your time. Thats a curriculum thing

In no universe should OMM be taking up 50% of your time. None. Even some of the heavier OMM schools only have a few hours a week.

I have around 20 hours of lecture material a week. If they were equivalent, there’d be a major problem.

 

[DO2015CA]

The issue isn’t DO vs MD pay. The issue is specialists pay

I am a DO specialist. At this time point there are plenty still matching cardiology/GI/etc (specialties where your residency tier matters). Harder, yes. Impossible, no. Internal medicine as a whole is DO friendly. There are still community program fellowship etc.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Not if OMM takes up 50% of your time. Thats a curriculum thing

No curriculum has omm take up that much time. Even in mandatory lab, if you’re not studying for other things, that’s on you.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

No curriculum has omm take up that much time. Even in mandatory lab, if you’re not studying for other things, that’s on you.

OMM still detracts from getting good USMLE, networking etc. it’s a time sink for sure for other things you can work on

 

[Goro]

OMM still detracts from getting good USMLE, networking etc. it’s a time sink for sure for other things you can work on

Considerate it a tax on you not having the stats/app to get into an MD School.

And Step I is pass fail. OMM classes won't be affecting your study time for Step 2.

 

[Ho0v-man]

OMM still detracts from getting good USMLE, networking etc. it’s a time sink for sure for other things you can work on

I’m clearly not an omm apologist. But it doesn’t detract from these things. It’s just not that time consuming.