How much would getting my M.S. in Biology help?

[Birdo88]

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So I'm a first time applicant, and have received one rejection, I'm waitlisted at another school, and I'm still waiting to hear from SGU. I have over 4,000 hours of experience (mostly with small animals but a few hundred with large animals and another few hundred with lab animals) and was pretty active in research and student activities as an undergrad.

HOWEVER, I graduated with a GPA of 3.01 due to a lot of Cs in chemistry and math during my first 2 years as an undergrad 🙁 And I only got an 1170 combined on the GRE.

Does anyone know of people who have been able to get into vet school with such a low undergrad GPA after "making up for it" with a Master's?

 

[that redhead]

If you visit previous "Successful Applicants" threads, you'll see that a number of people pursued post-graduate work with lower GPAs. There are a couple of things to consider, though. First of all, in considering last 45 credit hours, some schools will only look at undergraduate work and not graduate work. While hard work, it seems that it isn't all that difficult to succeed grade-wise in gradaute school (disclaimer: I'm not saying graduate school is easy by any stretch!) Secondly, most master's programs are a two year committment and the people you decide to work with don't always want you to dip in for a year to look good for vet school and leave when you got what you really wanted (an acceptance). It's pretty disrespectful of the system. You'll need a letter from your program excusing you if you decide to apply after one year. The last thing that was a big factor for me in deciding not to pursue a master's (even if I'm not accepted this cycle) is because my heart isn't in it. Doing research can be really interesting and rewarding but putting together a thesis and all of the paper and graphs and data collecting and ACK isn't something I personally want to spend two years doing (at least at this point in my life!) A friend of mine finishing up with her master's told me that if you aren't 100% committed to the "way of life" of a graduate student, you'll burn out really quick and be generally miserable.

So I think it's a lot to take on just to improve your grades especially with the considerations above.

 

[Birdo88]

If you visit previous "Successful Applicants" threads, you'll see that a number of people pursued post-graduate work with lower GPAs. There are a couple of things to consider, though. First of all, in considering last 45 credit hours, some schools will only look at undergraduate work and not graduate work. While hard work, it seems that it isn't all that difficult to succeed grade-wise in gradaute school (disclaimer: I'm not saying graduate school is easy by any stretch!) Secondly, most master's programs are a two year committment and the people you decide to work with don't always want you to dip in for a year to look good for vet school and leave when you got what you really wanted (an acceptance). It's pretty disrespectful of the system. You'll need a letter from your program excusing you if you decide to apply after one year. The last thing that was a big factor for me in deciding not to pursue a master's (even if I'm not accepted this cycle) is because my heart isn't in it. Doing research can be really interesting and rewarding but putting together a thesis and all of the paper and graphs and data collecting and ACK isn't something I personally want to spend two years doing (at least at this point in my life!) A friend of mine finishing up with her master's told me that if you aren't 100% committed to the "way of life" of a graduate student, you'll burn out really quick and be generally miserable.

So I think it's a lot to take on just to improve your grades especially with the considerations above.

I've been looking into 1.5 year masters programs. I spent 2 years working/doing independent research in a lab as an undergrad, so I understand the system fairly well. I know skipping out is not a nice thing to do, and I'm prepared to put off applying for a second time around an extra year or so. I did an undergrad honors thesis and thoroughly enjoyed doing the research that I did (although the graphs were a bit of a pain 😛), and hopefully will continue to do research once I do become a vet. Honestly, if my grades were good enough I'd even apply to a dual degree DVM/PhD or M.S. program, but with the grades I have, getting into a regular DVM/VMD program is going to be enough of a struggle.

I kind of just wanted to know what the success rate was, since I KNOW I want to become a vet, and want to try and figure out the best way to go about getting into vet school from where I am now.

 

[Tonkamoo]

I also had a relatively low undergraduate GPA. When a few years later I decided to go back to school to finish pre-reqs to apply to Vet school, I took my pre-reqs one by one, as a non-matriculated student. Then just to show I could handle a full course load of science courses, and do well in them, I took just one quarter of a full course load, all sciencey courses (microbio, lab, Cell bio, and stats etc).
I applied this year and got 5 interviews, and a few acceptances already. And in my interviews a few people commented on how well I'd done in my recent courses, and noone commented on my low undergraduate gpa. (Though I'm guessing some of the rejections I got were due to this).

So I think taking a full course load for a quarter or semester may be a cheaper option, that also requires less of a commitment. Just something to think about!

Also when you're choosing schools to apply to, keep your eye out for schools that value well rounded applicants, as opposed to just high numbers.

 

[sumstorm]

Are you able to go into a program and nail a 4.0 or at least a 3.8? the worst thing you could do is go in and do so-so. Also, will it give you a chance to show strength where your weaknesses are, or will it just show that you can do great when it is one field of study? It may be just as beneficial to retake courses and take advanced courses to prove your mettle. the 4k; all vet experience?

 

[kitty613]

Secondly, most master's programs are a two year committment and the people you decide to work with don't always want you to dip in for a year to look good for vet school and leave when you got what you really wanted (an acceptance). It's pretty disrespectful of the system. You'll need a letter from your program excusing you if you decide to apply after one year.

You have to get a letter excusing yourself from a program if you don't want to finish it? A little OT, but I applied for a second bachelor's degree this year (this time in biology) and the panel hesitated in accepting me because I mentioned in my Statement of Purpose that I was going to pursue vet medicine in the future. I recieved a phone call shortly after applying, and was asked point blank if I was really planning on finishing the degree (since I already have a B.A. and M.A. in other areas). or if I was just using the program for vet pre-req's. I wasn't sure if I was going to finish the program or not to tell you the truth. I don't want to be disrespectful either. Don't mean to hijack this thread, but it just got me thinking about my own situation. Sorry I don't have any answers for ya Birdo88. Great question though!

 

[LetItSnow]

Does anyone know of people who have been able to get into vet school with such a low undergrad GPA after "making up for it" with a Master's?

Two comments. First, schools look at GPAs different. Make sure you understand how the schools you're applying to do it. I don't actually even know what my overall GPA was, because they didn't ask for it. Maybe you have better than a 3.01 for their purposes.

Second, ask the school(s) that reject you what THEY would suggest. I didn't get in last year. After meeting with the school, I put together a list of "can do in 9 months" items, based on *their* suggestions, even though some of them felt a bit unintuitive to me. I figured that they know more about what they want than I do. This year, I got in. So, naturally, I think there's huge value in asking them for feedback on why you got rejected.

 

[Chinola]

You definitely don't have to have a letter excusing you from your graduate program for all vet schools. In my research the only school I looked into that required one of those letters for Colorado so I chose not to apply there. I will be leaving my MPH program after one year (it typically takes 2 years to complete it). And while my program wishes I would stay the whole time, they are fine with me leaving to begin vet school in the fall. I guess some research based Master's would be different if you get paired with a mentor and all but for a non-thesis Master's such as my MPH program, I don't think they really mind.

 

[libster06]

So I'm a first time applicant, and have received one rejection, I'm waitlisted at another school, and I'm still waiting to hear from SGU. I have over 4,000 hours of experience (mostly with small animals but a few hundred with large animals and another few hundred with lab animals) and was pretty active in research and student activities as an undergrad.

Don't write yourself off before you hear back! I say from experience, because I did this same thing after my vet school acceptance took an unexpected turn (I was rejected from a school, found out after applying that I didn't have the pre-reqs for another, and was alternate listed at my current vet school), I started planning for my next step. Then when I got in, my plans had to suddenly change. I'm not sure why you're so convinced you're going to have to resort to Option B just yet, because waitlist does not mean "rejection", and you haven't even heard from one of the schools. I would wait until you had a more solid grasp on what your vet school fate is before looking into Masters programs. Also, because you're wait listed, it can take up to mid-April before you hear anything, and I don't know how that would interfere with applying to and getting accepted into a Masters program.

From what I have read on SDN, the Masters route is probably not the best way to go, because there are SO MANY that take that route after being rejected from vet school, then abandon it... both Masters program admissions and vet school admissions are wary about people who have ulterior motives when doing Masters programs.

If worse came to worse and you did not get in this cycle, it could really help you to get a file review in May from all the schools you applied to (I did it, even after I got in, just to see why I was rejected), and see what you need to strengthen your app for the next round. Generally, if GPA is a hindering factor, you can beef up your app with other things and the admissions departments at schools will tell you what you can do to make yourself a better candidate.

 

[Birdo88]

I guess I'm just afraid that since my GPA is SO low, just taking a few courses non-matriculating isn't going to prove much, since they'll barely move my GPA or show academic rigor, unless I take at least 10 credits worth of grad courses, which is going to be pretty expensive, which brings me to my second point....

If I do a Masters, I can at least get financial aid or possibly even a TA or GA opportunity. I honestly don't see how I could pay for a full semester worth of courses without any aid.

I guess I understand Masters programs being wary of students who hope to go to vet school. But why would vet schools be wary of applicants who pursue a Masters first?

I don't want to "write myself off" just yet, but I feel like I should be proactive in figuring out what my options are in the event that I don't make it on my first try. By the time May rolls around, most schools won't be accepting grad students for Fall 2011. I'd hate to miss my chance just because I waited too long.

 

[awaring1]

If you don't mind going abroad there are a lot of taught masters programs in the UK that only take one year to complete.

Here was my plan B:

http://www.aber.ac.uk/en/postgrad/p...courses/ruralsciences/equine-science-masters/

You may not be interested in Equine, but there are a lot of one-year options out there that you may not know of. Be creative!

 

[laitmanvet]

I guess I'm just afraid that since my GPA is SO low, just taking a few courses non-matriculating isn't going to prove much, since they'll barely move my GPA or show academic rigor, unless I take at least 10 credits worth of grad courses, which is going to be pretty expensive, which brings me to my second point....

If I do a Masters, I can at least get financial aid or possibly even a TA or GA opportunity. I honestly don't see how I could pay for a full semester worth of courses without any aid.

I guess I understand Masters programs being wary of students who hope to go to vet school. But why would vet schools be wary of applicants who pursue a Masters first?

I don't want to "write myself off" just yet, but I feel like I should be proactive in figuring out what my options are in the event that I don't make it on my first try. By the time May rolls around, most schools won't be accepting grad students for Fall 2011. I'd hate to miss my chance just because I waited too long.

Since you're interested in research...you should consider a research job at a university med school. I work at a large university and took a class here for free. At most universities classes are usually part of the benefits package. I also got a master's at another nearby university. Some of my classmates also work there and were able to get most of the credits for their degree paid for.
You're at Rutgers right? (you wrote in an earlier post) If you want to PM me I'm from that area and now live in Philly (have been here for years since graduating)...I can give you some more details about worthwhile jobs/research in the area and esp the many opportunities in Philly.

As said earlier though...if you don't get in you should contact the schools and see what they have to say. I didn't get in last yr and was really surprised at what I was told and some of the advice I received. They might have other suggestions besides grades to fix or add to your application and possibly things you never thought of.

 

[libster06]

I guess I understand Masters programs being wary of students who hope to go to vet school. But why would vet schools be wary of applicants who pursue a Masters first?

I guess I should have asked a question first: would you tell the vet schools you had started a Masters program? If not, I don't guess it would make any difference. If you did, they might want to know about that and whether you were going to finish it or not before being accepted. It was more of an assumption I made, and maybe someone else who knows for sure could answer. Sorry about that 🙂

I don't want to "write myself off" just yet, but I feel like I should be proactive in figuring out what my options are in the event that I don't make it on my first try. By the time May rolls around, most schools won't be accepting grad students for Fall 2011. I'd hate to miss my chance just because I waited too long.

I feel you on getting the ball rolling, but if you have to wait til April for a final answer from a vet school anyway, you're not much further, not being able to commit to a program. I've been in your shoes, don't mistake me- I know its frustrating to try and plan a life outside of applying... the "where do I go next?" mentality. We're on the same page, and it always bothered me when people (like I did) would try to slow me down and not think too far ahead. I guess, since you asked, my advice is that doing a Masters just for vet school is probably not the right way to go.

 

[bbeventer]

Not to get off topic but I am glad you posted this. I sorta in your same boat. I got two rejections this year (only applied to 2 schools though) and have been contemplating starting a masters to make myself more "attractive."

Like others have said on here I have come to the conclusion that I will try to spend another year taking more upper level sciences classes as well as retaking anything 4cr. above that I got a C in (a semester that I got ill) and see if that helps before going and investing 2 years of my life in a program I am just using as stepping stone.

I don't know what you are interested, but I have considered and it has been suggested to me to look into getting a MPH instead. I think it only takes like a year to complete and is complementary to a DVM especially if you are wanting to go into research or food animals.

 

[awaring1]

Another thing to consider is that if you plan on applying for next cycle your application will be due October 1st. This will only give you ~2 months of masters level work for them to look at. They may require transcripts later in the process but they will most likely not be looking at your final GPA once complete your degree. You may have to rely on the positive influence that you attempting your masters will have and not the benefit of the results.

 

[Bacci]

I guess I should have asked a question first: would you tell the vet schools you had started a Masters program? If not, I don't guess it would make any difference. If you did, they might want to know about that and whether you were going to finish it or not before being accepted. It was more of an assumption I made, and maybe someone else who knows for sure could answer. Sorry about that 🙂

Ack! This thread is making me all worried. My PI took me on as a masters candidate fully aware that I was planning on applying and attending veterinary school (and that if I got in I was outta there), but I don't know if I made that clear on my application. Would they really see that as a bad thing?

Hopefully the fact that he wrote me a letter of recommendation says I wasn't trying to do anything shady, but still.

 

[awaring1]

Ack! This thread is making me all worried. My PI took me on as a masters candidate fully aware that I was planning on applying and attending veterinary school (and that if I got in I was outta there), but I don't know if I made that clear on my application. Would they really see that as a bad thing?

Hopefully the fact that he wrote me a letter of recommendation says I wasn't trying to do anything shady, but still.

Ha. When I read "PI" I thought it was "Private Investigator" and I decided that you had the most awesome Masters program ever.

I have not been in this situation personally, but I really think it is quite common. As long as you were honest and never tried to hide anything you should be fine. It is possible that people want to you to be successful and happy, no matter where that is.

 

[Bacci]

Ha. When I read "PI" I thought it was "Private Investigator" and I decided that you had the most awesome Masters program ever.

I have not been in this situation personally, but I really think it is quite common. As long as you were honest and never tried to hide anything you should be fine. It is possible that people want to you to be successful and happy, no matter where that is.

I refuse to believe the adcoms want me to be happy and successful.

Unless, of course, they are admitting me. 😀

 

[awaring1]

I refuse to believe the adcoms want me to be happy and successful.

Unless, of course, they are admitting me. 😀

For a few minutes each day the real-world becomes too much and I decide to put on my rose-colored glasses. 🙂

 

[nyanko]

I applied once with a low undergraduate GPA, got rejected, did a thesis based Masters, and got in on my second try. HOWEVER, my graduate GPA was barely a drop in the bucket as far as its impact on my actual cumulative GPA. The reason I did a MS was because I am interested in research in a specific field. I knew that graduate courses are often not really considered by vet schools, with good reason. Prior to my MS I was interviewed but not accepted, so I got past the initial screen the first time and knew that my GPA was not entirely what kept me out.

So if it makes sense if you think you're not getting past the initial "numbers" screen, a Masters probably isn't going to help you with that. However if you're getting past that point, a Masters can help you with the overall qualitative evaluation of your application. If you think you need help with getting past "numbers" part, I'd suggest a more intensive upper division post-bacc course of sciences and retaking and doing better on the GRE.

 

[libster06]

I don't know what you are interested, but I have considered and it has been suggested to me to look into getting a MPH instead. I think it only takes like a year to complete and is complementary to a DVM especially if you are wanting to go into research or food animals.

You can do an MPH in vet school too! Just like a DVM/PhD. Also something to look into...

So if it makes sense if you think you're not getting past the initial "numbers" screen, a Masters probably isn't going to help you with that. However if you're getting past that point, a Masters can help you with the overall qualitative evaluation of your application. If you think you need help with getting past "numbers" part, I'd suggest a more intensive upper division post-bacc course of sciences and retaking and doing better on the GRE.

This is what I was trying to get at.

 

[RaiderTXgirl]

My two cents...

I agree that you should find out how individual vet schools feel about using a master's to improve your GPA. During my file review with Texas A&M last year, I was advised to take more courses to improve my GPA, and told that starting a master's would be a good idea. They have no problem with abandoning the master's upon acceptance. I will mention, though, that I ended up starting a non-thesis master's program, so I am not abandoning any research projects (if I get accepted this round, of course!😉)

Good luck!

 

[that redhead]

They have no problem with abandoning the master's upon acceptance.

Some schools won't but others will. It isn't always viewed favorably to start something to better yourself and then abandon it just because you get in. It shows (in my mind, at least) a lack of respect for the PI and the work. Not to say that everyone who has ever used a Master's to further their chances is a terrible, evil person but it's definitely something to consider when applying. And yes, some schools do require that your PI sign off on the fact that you intend to leave them. Whether or not they're OK with that is unique to your particular situation, OP.

 

[nyanko]

It isn't always viewed favorably to start something to better yourself and then abandon it just because you get in. It shows (in my mind, at least) a lack of respect for the PI and the work.

As a future academic I totally agree.

 

[libster06]

Some schools won't but others will. It isn't always viewed favorably to start something to better yourself and then abandon it just because you get in.

I was going to post the same thing. I know Texas A&M doesn't mind, because I know several people there who did not get in their first try and started on some sort of Masters program at A&M, and then went on to get their DVM. It really is on a school-by-school basis.

 

[Birdo88]

So if it makes sense if you think you're not getting past the initial "numbers" screen, a Masters probably isn't going to help you with that. However if you're getting past that point, a Masters can help you with the overall qualitative evaluation of your application. If you think you need help with getting past "numbers" part, I'd suggest a more intensive upper division post-bacc course of sciences and retaking and doing better on the GRE.

Taking post-bacc courses would be better for the numbers portion of my app than a Masters? I'd think it'd be the other way around, since I'd probably end up taking more credits if I did a Masters.

I really didn't want to, but I guess I'll try doing the GREs over as well. That would make sense.

Also, if I did end up doing a Masters, I wouldn't "abandon" it. A Masters or PhD was something I was interested in doing along with vet school, since I'd like to continue doing research after I become a vet (which will be one day!). I just kinda wish I'd be able to do it in the opposite order I guess.

 

[RaiderTXgirl]

Some schools won't but others will. It isn't always viewed favorably to start something to better yourself and then abandon it just because you get in. It shows (in my mind, at least) a lack of respect for the PI and the work. Not to say that everyone who has ever used a Master's to further their chances is a terrible, evil person but it's definitely something to consider when applying. And yes, some schools do require that your PI sign off on the fact that you intend to leave them. Whether or not they're OK with that is unique to your particular situation, OP.

When I said "they" in the post that you quoted, I should have specifically said A&M. I know that there are several schools who don't like it, but A&M is totally fine with it.

On a personal note, I did mention that I am a non-thesis student. I am simply taking graduate level courses that will apply toward a master's degree, WITHOUT the research. I am not tied into anything that would be abandoned, except course enrollments. Frankly, I don't think anyone would notice if I was gone, like when you drop courses in undergrad. By doing this, I am at least working toward a degree, rather than wasting more money as a post-bacc student (which I have done already, by the way). It couldn't hurt to have a degree you are working on in case vet school never pans out (which is something else that was mentioned during my file review with A&M).

Also, getting financial aid to take post bacc classes proved to be a problem, because it is "non-degree seeking". If I have to be degree seeking to get financial aid, it might as well be for an advanced degree, since I already have a B.S. It also allows me to take even more upper level biology courses that will actually prepare me better for vet school material.

 

[that redhead]

When I said "they" in the post that you quoted, I should have specifically said A&M. I know that there are several schools who don't like it, but A&M is totally fine with it.

On a personal note, I did mention that I am a non-thesis student. I am simply taking graduate level courses that will apply toward a master's degree, WITHOUT the research. I am not tied into anything that would be abandoned, except course enrollments. Frankly, I don't think anyone would notice if I was gone, like when you drop courses in undergrad. By doing this, I am at least working toward a degree, rather than wasting more money as a post-bacc student (which I have done already, by the way). It couldn't hurt to have a degree you are working on in case vet school never pans out (which is something else that was mentioned during my file review with A&M).

I'm sorry if it came across like I was attacking you personally - not my intention at all 🙂 I just wanted to point out a couple of important considerations to the OP.

 

[Cypress]

I also have a lower overall GPA due to some unfortunate choices during my initial undergraduate work - I have now completed my pre reqs (did most of them after graduating initially) and been rejected twice - only feed back I've really gotten has been to take a heavy load of science courses and do well. (I also have extensive and varied experience)

I am now in a biology masters program that was designed just for pre professionals - its a non-thesis program that only lasts a year - I'm taking 30 hours of graduate biology in 2 semesters. Its a very intensive program but apparently has been very successful - most of the people in my classes are pre med or pre dental but the program fits the bill for pre vet as well. I'm not sure if there are other programs like this out there but its hopefully will help strengthen my application. Not sure where you live but I'm in Indiana - and this program is offered in IUPUI.

 

[nyanko]

Taking post-bacc courses would be better for the numbers portion of my app than a Masters? I'd think it'd be the other way around, since I'd probably end up taking more credits if I did a Masters.

If you're doing an academic Masters, the focus is not on coursework. The requirements for my thesis based Masters as far as all coursework basically equaled one slightly overloaded undergraduate semester in credit hours. You're expected to do research and so most of your "credit hours" will end up being pass/fail research hours or whatever, and you'll take very few actual graded courses. In addition those graded courses, as graduate level courses, are generally pretty damn different from veterinary courses. Honestly the classes in a primarily didactic curriculum (like UC Davis's current) are more like undergraduate courses on steroids than they are like my grad courses. Grad courses = depth, vet courses = breadth, in general.

This is totally different for non-thesis or special Masters programs, of course. I haven't done one of those but for example CSU's program in that seemed a lot more like a really intense post-bacc.