How realistic is Heme Onc as a DO?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Aspiring O

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I have heard that if one does well as a DO they may match to mid level academia for IM. After this how likely is it for a DO to get a heme/onc fellowship, and if it is possible how good of a fellowship can one get?

I know there are DOs that have done well in heme onc but what are the chances? Is it like Neurosurgery or Dermatology where getting those as a DO is extremely rare or is it possible for decently high achieving DOs?
 
i think you can very likely to go hem/onc as DO even to ACGME, just did one of my preceptorship at Jefferson with a DO hem/onc

the stats, unfortunately, you need to google it
 
Very realistic. As you have said, decent performing DOs (240+, honors, etc) have a good shot at mid tier and some upper mid tie IM places like UCSD, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Indiana, UIC, GWU, Temple, Henry Ford,Rutgers, DMC, SLU Georgetown/medstar, and a few others. Definitely attainable if you don’t have a big city or bust attitude and you work hard. Just don’t expect a top tier fellowship because pedigree is everything in academics. It’s disappointing what these places look at. Academic pedigree is huge. I was asked at an interview why I went to my state school for undergrad (even though I was accepted to a top 25 institution but chose not to go because it didn’t have direct med). Best of luck!
 
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Syncrohnize said:
Very realistic. As you have said, decent performing DOs (240+, honors, etc) have a good shot at mid tier and some upper mid tie IM places like UCSD, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Indiana, UIC, GWU, Temple, Henry Ford,Rutgers, DMC, SLU Georgetown/medstar, and a few others. Definitely attainable if you don’t have a big city or bust attitude and you work hard. Just don’t expect a top tier fellowship because pedigree is everything in academics. It’s disappointing what these places look at. Academic pedigree is huge. I was asked at an interview why I went to my state school (even though I was accepted to a top 25 institution but chose not to go because it didn’t have direct med). Best of luck!
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how do you find the ranking for these IM places? some site only gives you few and need to unlock full access
 
Syncrohnize said:
Very realistic. As you have said, decent performing DOs (240+, honors, etc) have a good shot at mid tier and some upper mid tie IM places like UCSD, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Indiana, UIC, GWU, Temple, Henry Ford,Rutgers, DMC, SLU Georgetown/medstar, and a few others. Definitely attainable if you don’t have a big city or bust attitude and you work hard. Just don’t expect a top tier fellowship because pedigree is everything in academics. It’s disappointing what these places look at. Academic pedigree is huge. I was asked at an interview why I went to my state school (even though I was accepted to a top 25 institution but chose not to go because it didn’t have direct med). Best of luck!
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Why do they ask about med school choice at residency interviews? Sounds ridiculous lol
 
Syncrohnize said:
Very realistic. As you have said, decent performing DOs (240+, honors, etc) have a good shot at mid tier and some upper mid tie IM places like UCSD, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Indiana, UIC, GWU, Temple, Henry Ford,Rutgers, DMC, SLU Georgetown/medstar, and a few others. Definitely attainable if you don’t have a big city or bust attitude and you work hard. Just don’t expect a top tier fellowship because pedigree is everything in academics. It’s disappointing what these places look at. Academic pedigree is huge. I was asked at an interview why I went to my state school (even though I was accepted to a top 25 institution but chose not to go because it didn’t have direct med). Best of luck!
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Very helpful! And as far as fellowships I see you said top tiers are unlikely, are mid tiers doable with a mid tier residency or are the low tier fellowships the most probable options for DOs?
 
Aspiring O said:
Very helpful! And as far as fellowships I see you said top tiers are unlikely, are mid tiers doable with a mid tier residency or are the low tier fellowships the most probable options for DOs?
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Honestly there isn’t really an answer to this question. There are too many variables, like what residency you’re applying from, connections you make at said residency, how good of a resident you were, your research CV, probably even your Step scores to a small extent. I don’t think it’s possible to give a blanket yes or no to your question. Obviously the higher up the ladder you’re trying to go the better your application needs to be.
 
Aspiring O said:
I have heard that if one does well as a DO they may match to mid level academia for IM. After this how likely is it for a DO to get a heme/onc fellowship, and if it is possible how good of a fellowship can one get?

I know there are DOs that have done well in heme onc but what are the chances? Is it like Neurosurgery or Dermatology where getting those as a DO is extremely rare or is it possible for decently high achieving DOs?
Click to expand...

It will depend largely where you did your IM, in addition to your research CV. For example, even at the most elite heme onc programs, they take people from low tier schools, but they all went to top residencies: Department of Medicine: Our Fellows | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Mid tier heme onc is definitely more accessible just as mid tier IM is accessible for DOs.
 
shisong said:
how do you find the ranking for these IM places? some site only gives you few and need to unlock full access
Click to expand...

Doximity free account. It’s a good rule of thumb in determining tiers but rankings are questionable in many aspects too.

Aspiring O said:
Very helpful! And as far as fellowships I see you said top tiers are unlikely, are mid tiers doable with a mid tier residency or are the low tier fellowships the most probable options for DOs?
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I can’t answer that question because I haven’t gone thru that yet, all I can say is that based on my experience everything will seems
harder for a DO in academic IM and I’d imagine DOs would be less common at top research institutions but if a DO were to have gone to a top tier residency and had a solid research resume, I don’t see why they couldn’t match into a top IM fellowship. At this point though, I would highly discourage looking that far ahead.
 
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Dwan said:
It will depend largely where you did your IM, in addition to your research CV. For example, even at the most elite heme onc programs, they take people from low tier schools, but they all went to top residencies: Department of Medicine: Our Fellows | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Mid tier heme onc is definitely more accessible just as mid tier IM is accessible for DOs.
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There is no DO on that list... The bias against DO exist unfortunately. I remember NYU IM program blatantly put on their website that they don't accept DO. That is crazy! And that same NYU interviewed someone in my class with 219 step1 and mid 230s step2. There are many other examples of people in my class who interviewed at great IM programs (e.g. Stanford, Cornell, U. Chicago etc...) with not so great scores. Some PDs think it's better to put the photo of a below average MD than putting a qualified DO on their website--even if there are a few DO schools that might be better than some MD schools (including my school). These people can be very prestige driven.
 
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I go to OU's DO school. I did a lot of research and actually contacted PDs and I found that the bias towards you will increase the greater the distance away from the school you apply. I think that's a major difference between DO and MDs that no one talks about. I asked PDs what they thought of students from my school/DOs in general. All of the ones in the state of Ohio held students from OU in high regard, but as soon as I talked to PDs further away (e.g. outside of Ohio) the answers varied greatly.

Obviously there are no "tiers" in DO programs, but local reputation matters if you go to a DO school, and that's why MSU, CCOM, Kansas, etc. are more sought after than the newer schools.
 
W19 said:
There no DO on that list... The bias against DO exist unfortunately. I remember NYU IM program blatantly put on their website that they don't accept DO. That is crazy! And that same NYU interviewed someone in my class with 219 step1 and mid 230s step2. There many other example of people in my class who interviewed at great IM programs (e.g. Stanford, Cornell, U. Chicago etc...) with not so great scores. Some PDs think it's better to put the photo of a below average MD than putting a qualified DO on their website--even if there are a few DO school that might be better than some MD schools (including my school). These people can be very prestige driven.
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Yeah it's rare to find DOs in top fellowships because it's rare they get into top IM. The most impressive IM program I've seen DOs make is the University of Washington, which, judging by their heme/onc match, probably guarantees a top fellowship placement for them as well (Duke x1, MSK x1, OHSU x1, UVA x1, Vandy x1, Fred Hutch x10) The DO I knew who interviewed there was far more qualified than the MDs though and didn't get in, so it is definitely an uphill battle.
 
W19 said:
There is no DO on that list... The bias against DO exist unfortunately. I remember NYU IM program blatantly put on their website that they don't accept DO. That is crazy! And that same NYU interviewed someone in my class with 219 step1 and mid 230s step2. There are many other examples of people in my class who interviewed at great IM programs (e.g. Stanford, Cornell, U. Chicago etc...) with not so great scores. Some PDs think it's better to put the photo of a below average MD than putting a qualified DO on their website--even if there are a few DO schools that might be better than some MD schools (including my school). These people can be very prestige driven.
Click to expand...
Dwan said:
Yeah it's rare to find DOs in top fellowships because it's rare they get into top IM. The most impressive IM program I've seen DOs make is the University of Washington, which, judging by their heme/onc match, probably guarantees a top fellowship placement for them as well (Duke x1, MSK x1, OHSU x1, UVA x1, Vandy x1, Fred Hutch x10) The DO I knew who interviewed there was far more qualified than the MDs though and didn't get in, so it is definitely an uphill battle.
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Another reason for the anti-DO bias is program directors are wary of COCA standards and feel that COCA isn’t as strict as LCME on many things.

The bias is unfair but it’s important to realize that program directors at competitive places can do whatever they want since there are more qualified applicants than seats available. They already have a lot of well qualified MD applicants so they have no reason to interview DO or IMG applicants. And the MD applicants who interview at top places despite below average Step scores have something compelling in their applications that the program directors decided they want to meet them.
 
Robotfishbrain said:
I go to OU's DO school. I did a lot of research and actually contacted PDs and I found that the bias towards you will increase the greater the distance away from the school you apply. I think that's a major difference between DO and MDs that no one talks about. I asked PDs what they thought of students from my school/DOs in general. All of the ones in the state of Ohio held students from OU in high regard, but as soon as I talked to PDs further away (e.g. outside of Ohio) the answers varied greatly.
Click to expand...

This is an angle I'd never heard before, but does make sense.
 
Lawper said:
Another reason for the anti-DO bias is program directors are wary of COCA standards and feel that COCA isn’t as strict as LCME on many things.
Click to expand...

Nope, maybe some people sure but you could give all DO students a Harvard education and a lot of places would still throw their apps directly in the trash simply because of their long held bias against the letters DO.
 
Syncrohnize said:
Very realistic. As you have said, decent performing DOs (240+, honors, etc) have a good shot at mid tier and some upper mid tie IM places like UCSD, OSU, Iowa, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Indiana, UIC, GWU, Temple, Henry Ford,Rutgers, DMC, SLU Georgetown/medstar, and a few others. Definitely attainable if you don’t have a big city or bust attitude and you work hard. Just don’t expect a top tier fellowship because pedigree is everything in academics. It’s disappointing what these places look at. Academic pedigree is huge. I was asked at an interview why I went to my state school for undergrad (even though I was accepted to a top 25 institution but chose not to go because it didn’t have direct med). Best of luck!
Click to expand...
Sorry to barge in but the bolded is interesting to me.
Explain please? I'm just pre med but what if I end up going to a DO program, I don't know yet.
 
mwsapphire said:
Sorry to barge in but the bolded is interesting to me.
Explain please? I'm just pre med but what if I end up going to a DO program, I don't know yet.
Click to expand...

When people say “big city” on SDN they usually are talking about the massive metropolis type places like LA, San Francisco, NY, etc. Good programs in these locals are simply even more competitive than usual because of their location, and this includes both for MDs and DOs. The mid-tier to upper mid tier programs that will consistently consider qualified DOs tend (not always but as a general rule) to be grouped in the mid-west and away from the major coastal cities.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
When people say “big city” on SDN they usually are talking about the massive metropolis type places like LA, San Francisco, NY, etc. Good programs in these locals are simply even more competitive than usual because of their location, and this includes both for MDs and DOs. The mid-tier to upper mid tier programs that will consistently consider qualified DOs tend (not always but as a general rule) to be grouped in the mid-west and away from the major coastal cities.
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That makes sense, but wouldn't places like Philly or some places in NY consider DO's because of, like what was mentioned above, location?
Like, Philedelphia has a DO program, so I'd imagine a hospital in Philly ( a large city) would consider DO's? And what about places that aren't as academic medicine based?
I don't mean to split hairs I just wanna know, because my state doesn't have many DO's.
 
mwsapphire said:
That makes sense, but wouldn't places like Philly or some places in NY consider DO's because of, like what was mentioned above, location?
Like, Philedelphia has a DO program, so I'd imagine a hospital in Philly ( a large city) would consider DO's? And what about places that aren't as academic medicine based?
I don't mean to split hairs I just wanna know, because my state doesn't have many DO's.
Click to expand...

It's not simply getting into these cities thats the issue as every city will most likely have a number of uncompetitive programs, but in terms of getting fellowships the better your residency the better your chances of securing a good fellowship, or any fellowship in some instances. IM is very prestige and academic driven where the name of your residency will matter a lot when it comes time for fellowship. Yes there are places in Philly and NY that will take a DO, and some of them pretty solid programs, but the DO has to be better than the MD applicants generally to snag the spot at these types of places. Places like UPENN or NYU will most likely never take a DO. A DO matched at URochester this last year and from what IM residents have said on this forum that is a very solid match. A DO matching into places like that in major cities is pretty uncommon.

It's not really getting into these cities that's the difficult part, its getting the good programs that will lead to fellowship in these places. Does that make sense?
 
mwsapphire said:
That makes sense, but wouldn't places like Philly or some places in NY consider DO's because of, like what was mentioned above, location?
Like, Philedelphia has a DO program, so I'd imagine a hospital in Philly ( a large city) would consider DO's? And what about places that aren't as academic medicine based?
I don't mean to split hairs I just wanna know, because my state doesn't have many DO's.
Click to expand...
The northeast is generally pretty DO friendly outside of nyc and the cluster of big names in boston. Philly seems to be one of the most DO friendly cities in my opinion but penn is an obvious exception to that
 
mwsapphire said:
That makes sense, but wouldn't places like Philly or some places in NY consider DO's because of, like what was mentioned above, location?
Like, Philedelphia has a DO program, so I'd imagine a hospital in Philly ( a large city) would consider DO's? And what about places that aren't as academic medicine based?
I don't mean to split hairs I just wanna know, because my state doesn't have many DO's.
Click to expand...

I doubt location has much to do with anything. The northeast has several DO schools, but it doesn't mean the bias isn't there. You'll find hospitals everywhere in the US that will consider DOs and hospitals everywhere in the US that won't touch DOs with a ten foot pole. Community programs (I assume that's what you mean when you say not as academic) are generally more open to DOs than academic programs.
 
ThrowAwayStepDO said:
ive noticed a lot of DO subspec., either in the community or academic institutions, did aoa residencies and then acgme fellowships. .
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MSU being a state university probably helped on that front. I have to wonder if they were dual accredited even back when she was there.
 
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