How to deal with a problem student in my class.

[Doc Hoff]

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Hey everyone,

Long-time lurker, first time poster.

I am looking for some advice on the best course of action to take regarding a classmate.

I can't give too many details since I think he is on SDN, but since school began (we are second years), this student has shown a blatant disregard for the rules ranging from attendance policy violations, to inappropriate attire. He has been reprimanded by the administration repeatedly, but in a recent conversation, it has become apparent that he does not view his actions as inappropriate.

It would be one thing if a student just messed up and then corrected his behavior, but this student blames everyone else but himself for his obvious mistakes.

My concern is I feel that this student will have serious problems in 3rd year and beyond, including patient safety issues. He is definitely not someone I would want to work with on a rotation or trust my patients with.

My question is whether I should report this student to the appropriate committee (and risk becoming "that guy") or just let him go about his business and hope that he either corrects his behavior, or that the administration takes further notice on their own.

 

[siliso]

Hey everyone,

Long-time lurker, first time poster.

I am looking for some advice on the best course of action to take regarding a classmate.

I can't give too many details since I think he is on SDN, but since school began (we are second years), this student has shown a blatant disregard for the rules ranging from attendance policy violations, to inappropriate attire. He has been reprimanded by the administration repeatedly, but in a recent conversation, it has become apparent that he does not view his actions as inappropriate.

It would be one thing if a student just messed up and then corrected his behavior, but this student blames everyone else but himself for his obvious mistakes.

My concern is I feel that this student will have serious problems in 3rd year and beyond, including patient safety issues. He is definitely not someone I would want to work with on a rotation or trust my patients with.

My question is whether I should report this student to the appropriate committee (and risk becoming "that guy") or just let him go about his business and hope that he either corrects his behavior, or that the administration takes further notice on their own.

If you have direct, specific, personal knowledge of some dangerous or unethical behavior, then I think you should report. If you've just noticed that the guy is a jerk, obviously you're not the only one and it looks like the school is aware and dealing with it.

 

[newbie04]

Wow, this thread is beyond ridiculous. Making a jump from tardiness and attire to patient safety is stupid (for lack of a better word).

 

[Doc Hoff]

I am not saying that this person is "just a jerk". This person is aware of the rules and willfully and arrogantly violates them, and then, when reprimanded, refuses to acknowledge that he was wrong or even to correct the behavior.

Can you honestly say that it is unreasonable to think this person should not be entrusted with patient care?

 

[makshim]

u mad?

 

[newbie04]

Can you honestly say that it is unreasonable to think this person should not be entrusted with patient care?

Most definitely.

 

[Doc Hoff]

u mad?

No, just concerned and interested in legitimate advice.

 

[QofQuimica]

No, just concerned and interested in legitimate advice.

Doc, here's some legitimate advice: mind your own business. Twenty years from now when you're a med school dean or administrator, you can crack down on problem students all you want. But right now, your job is to pass your second year classes and get ready for Step 1 and the wards. Also, the school is obviously aware of the problems you're mentioning, because they've already been reprimanding the guy. Let them do their job, and you stick to doing yours.

 

[Tiger26]

Really???? Unless inappropriate attire means coming to class naked or wearing clothing references that happen to piss off every religious and ethnic group at the same time, you should probably keep it to yourself.

If you did go ahead and report him based on speculation (assuming he didn't commit a crime or something), I've gotta say it would be you who I would in fact not want to work with on a rotation at some point.

 

[Basookashlon]

Hey everyone,

Long-time lurker, first time poster.

I am looking for some advice on the best course of action to take regarding a classmate.

I can't give too many details since I think he is on SDN, but since school began (we are second years), this student has shown a blatant disregard for the rules ranging from attendance policy violations, to inappropriate attire. He has been reprimanded by the administration repeatedly, but in a recent conversation, it has become apparent that he does not view his actions as inappropriate.

It would be one thing if a student just messed up and then corrected his behavior, but this student blames everyone else but himself for his obvious mistakes.

My concern is I feel that this student will have serious problems in 3rd year and beyond, including patient safety issues. He is definitely not someone I would want to work with on a rotation or trust my patients with.

My question is whether I should report this student to the appropriate committee (and risk becoming "that guy") or just let him go about his business and hope that he either corrects his behavior, or that the administration takes further notice on their own.

Sounds like you're a bitch.

 

[DrYoda]

Now, what exactly makes this any of your business?

 

[Doc Hoff]

Doc, here's some legitimate advice: mind your own business. Twenty years from now when you're a med school dean or administrator, you can crack down on problem students all you want. But right now, your job is to pass your second year classes and get ready for Step 1 and the wards. Also, the school is obviously aware of the problems you're mentioning, because they've already been reprimanding the guy. Let them do their job, and you stick to doing yours.

thanks for the helpful advice

Sounds like you're a bitch.

Seriously?

I appreciate the sincere advice. I am not on the lookout to report students or get them in trouble unnecessarily. I know that "dresscode violation" sound lame, but my concern is the fact that the rule is a relatively straightforward and simple one. This guy showed up in scrubs to a standardized patient encounter when the expectation is, and has always been professional dress. As I said, this is represents a pattern of behavior. My concern is not the violation per se, but the fact that this student admits to not caring about the rules at all.

I know I sound like a tool and a hall monitor. Its just that if the guy has this much contempt for a rule as simple as "wear professional dress in clinic", what is going to happen when he is actually responsible for patients?

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

So is this for lectures or is it stimulated patient encounter stuff. If it is lectures I kind of agree with him. So is this student wearing T-shirt and jeans to lecture

Get a grip I'm so glad my medschool does not have a dress code for lectures and if you don't want to attend lectures you don't have to.

And based on your story I would rather trust my patients with this dude than you.

 

[Doc Hoff]

So is this for lectures or is it stimulated patient encounter stuff. If it is lectures I kind of agree with him. So is this student wearing T-shirt and jeans to lecture

Get a grip I'm so glad my medschool does not have a dress code for lectures and if you don't want to attend lectures you don't have to.

And based on your story I would rather trust my patients with this dude than you.

Read above. It was a standarized patient encounter not a lecture. We don't have dress codes for lectures.

Like I said, the school has repeatedly emphasized professional dress when interacting with patients.

 

[Basookashlon]

And based on your story I would rather trust my patients with this dude than you.

Actually, we cant really make any judgement on how either Doc Hoff or his classmate will perform as physicians based off this thread. Hence why everyone is criticizing Doc Hoff.

 

[Quinone]

I know I sound like a tool and a hall monitor.

Yep, you said it.

It's not your problem what happens to this classmate in the future. Your school is already aware of the issues. Let it rest, dude.

 

[Wesco]

I come here to read experiences about med school from med students and come across such a rediculous thread. I thought the challenges of med school were too intense for even the perverbial bizzy body. I'm guessing you're probably the one people vote as the class wierdo. Mind your biz.

 

[sylvanthus]

You're a student, it is not your job to enforce school policy. Furthermore, it appears your school is already aware of this students behaviors. So, quite frankly, you're just coming across as a jackass with a personal vendetta against this student.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

So a guy wears scrubs to a standardized patient encounter and you act as if he was planning to gun students down. Plenty of doctors present to patients in scrubs. Either way its not like you are presenting a case with him. The school responds by probably docking points of his SPED report but if he hasn't had to talk to the dean yet it really isn't that serious.

I thought the guy was cheating and not apologetic but cause he wears scrubs to standardized patient encounters you think he is a "danger" get a hold of yourself buddy. Serious things are academic dishonesty or unethical treatment to others or being late several times in 3rd year.

 

[ProtossCarrier]

Doc hoff, I sincerely hope we don't have people like you in my class. I would personally worry more about people like you when it comes to patient care, precisely because how you blow little things out of porportion and it's going to be diffcult working with people like you.

 

[Schwann]

Wow! I can't believe this poster. Unless he is a danger to you or someone else, leave him ALONE! It is his life! Focus on yourself rather than worrying about enforcing policy. People just don't cease to surprise me!

 

[Rollo]

Interesting first post.

 

[a winner is you]

The guy wore scrubs to a patient encounter, sound the alarms guys. This is a serious threat to national security. Everyone get to your bunkers.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Lord, i hope you are not in my class.

I can understand M1s making a big deal out of nothing but an M2 should know better

 

[seelee]

This is funny because an eerily similar thing happened at my school. Wonder if we go to the same school.

First off, to the OP, the fact that he has been reprimanded by the powers that be means that they are aware of it and therefore, you don't need to do anything. There's your advice.

To the rest of you, lay the **** off. There are plenty of "rants" about "those students" that everybody gets sick off. It sounds like the OP has a legitimate concern about how to handle the situation. Medicine is a team effort, and a degree of concern about your fellow professionals is appropriate.

Maybe the OP is being paranoid, but hell, every single time someone goes bat-**** crazy we are so quick to point fingers at the people who worked with him asking "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING!!" When someone does show concern then we berate the person for having "personal vendettas against the student".

For the record, the OP wasn't complaining about the fact that the student wore scrubs, it was the fact that the student knew the rule, deliberately broke it, and then, when called out for it, refused to accept responsibility. Assuming the OP's account is accurate then this IS a warning sign. If the administration were not already aware of the situation, then I think that going to the administration would be warranted.

 

[Rollo]

For the record, the OP wasn't complaining about the fact that the student wore scrubs, it was the fact that the student knew the rule, deliberately broke it, and then, when called out for it, refused to accept responsibility. Assuming the OP's account is accurate then this IS a warning sign. If the administration were not already aware of the situation, then I think that going to the administration would be warranted.

If the student in question had broken the rule of "don't touch your patient inappropriately", gotten called out for it, and refused to accept responsibility, THEN it is a warning sign.

Breaking the rule of wearing scrubs or whatever is insignificant.

 

[TacMed]

To the rest of you, lay the **** off...Maybe the OP is being paranoid, but hell, every single time someone goes bat-**** crazy we are so quick to point fingers at the people who worked with him asking "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING!!"...this IS a warning sign.

Seelee's right. Anyone showing a blatant disregard of dress code will probably snap and shoot up the school. Your best advice is to first plant drugs in his locker, and then go about complaining to admin. you know, to uphold the integrity of your class and protect his future patients.

 

[DrYoda]

This is funny because an eerily similar thing happened at my school. Wonder if we go to the same school.

First off, to the OP, the fact that he has been reprimanded by the powers that be means that they are aware of it and therefore, you don't need to do anything. There's your advice.

To the rest of you, lay the **** off. There are plenty of "rants" about "those students" that everybody gets sick off. It sounds like the OP has a legitimate concern about how to handle the situation. Medicine is a team effort, and a degree of concern about your fellow professionals is appropriate.

Maybe the OP is being paranoid, but hell, every single time someone goes bat-**** crazy we are so quick to point fingers at the people who worked with him asking "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING!!" When someone does show concern then we berate the person for having "personal vendettas against the student".

For the record, the OP wasn't complaining about the fact that the student wore scrubs, it was the fact that the student knew the rule, deliberately broke it, and then, when called out for it, refused to accept responsibility. Assuming the OP's account is accurate then this IS a warning sign. If the administration were not already aware of the situation, then I think that going to the administration would be warranted.

🙄

 

[MilkmanAl]

Blatant disregard for a dress code? Yep, he's a hospital massacre waiting to happen, in one way or another.

It amazes me what some people get all worked up about. Anyone who would consider that a strike against someone's ability to be a doctor is not someone I'd be terribly excited to work with.

 

[seelee]

Seelee's right. Anyone showing a blatant disregard of dress code will probably snap and shoot up the school. Your best advice is to first plant drugs in his locker, and then go about complaining to admin. you know, to uphold the integrity of your class and protect his future patients.

Dip****. Way to chop up my post, take it out of context and then misrepresent exactly what I said.

 

[seelee]

If the student in question had broken the rule of "don't touch your patient inappropriately", gotten called out for it, and refused to accept responsibility, THEN it is a warning sign.

Breaking the rule of wearing scrubs or whatever is insignificant.

So touching your patients in appropriately is just a warning sign?

Maybe I am a hard ass, but refusing to follow a simple, uncomplicated rule speaks volumes about a person's character.

Hell, I honestly can't believe that on SDN a person who advocates going into medicine "for the money" is nailed to the proverbial cross, but a guy who says "**** the rules" is untouchable.

Either way, this isn't really the hill I want to die on, so...whatever.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think you may have already killed yourself on said hill. Don't speed on your way home, kids!

 

[a winner is you]

Maybe I am a hard ass, but refusing to follow a simple, uncomplicated rule speaks volumes about a person's character.

We're required to have our student ID to enter the gym. Sometimes I forget my ID at home so I borrow an ID from a friend who's on campus and go anyway. Is that a warning sign that I'm going to be a hospital menace too? I'm like a ticking time bomb, watch out guys.

 

[TacMed]

.

 

[Rollo]

So touching your patients in appropriately is just a warning sign?

Maybe I am a hard ass, but refusing to follow a simple, uncomplicated rule speaks volumes about a person's character.

Hell, I honestly can't believe that on SDN a person who advocates going into medicine "for the money" is nailed to the proverbial cross, but a guy who says "**** the rules" is untouchable.

Either way, this isn't really the hill I want to die on, so...whatever.

Don't be an ass. Of course I know that touching your patients inappropriately is a serious offense.

You aren't a hard ass. You just have a conservative, follow-the-rules mindset. And that's perfectly fine so long as it is working out for you and keeping you in check. However, you need to realize that there will be people, and yes medical students, who will be more liberal in following some of the simple, uncomplicated rules.

Why? Simple because they feel they are more independent and therefore cannot be told by the administration how to dress.

Hear me out, fella. If the dude had walked in wearing this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zJwouhWboLM/SCkdA8z1D7I/AAAAAAAAAMc/qgKMeFW2eg4/s400/t-never.nude.jpg

Then yes, that is a serious offense.

And you can't honestly sit there and say that EVERY SINGLE simple, uncomplicated rule they have in place in medical school is unbreakable?

I think the OP, and now unfortunately you, is catching heat for this is because medical students (heck, people in general) don't like it when somebody attempts to make their lives miserable for no good reason. (And yes, breaking a simple uncomplicated insignificant rule is a no good reason)

 

[KeyzerSoze]

You aren't a hard ass. You just have a conservative, follow-the-rules mindset. And that's perfectly fine so long as it is working out for you and keeping you in check. However, you need to realize that there will be people, and yes medical students, who will be more liberal in following some of the simple, uncomplicated rules.

Why? Simple because they feel they are more independent and therefore cannot be told by the administration how to dress.

I'm not sure why you're couching the issue in these terms. I would say that by definition the "conservative" thing is to mind your own business, and the more "liberal" students I know are like the OP, and try to fix every imagined wrong they come across.

Also, the OP is a troll. Alternatively, this is an epic case of a thread not working out the way the OP expected.

 

[engineeredout]

Pretty ****ty to think that every time I skip out on a worthless lecture there's probably somebody like you sitting around fuming and convincing yourself that I don't have what it takes to be in medical school and I'm going to kill someone.

 

[fahimaz7]

Doc, here's some legitimate advice: mind your own business. Twenty years from now when you're a med school dean or administrator, you can crack down on problem students all you want. But right now, your job is to pass your second year classes and get ready for Step 1 and the wards. Also, the school is obviously aware of the problems you're mentioning, because they've already been reprimanding the guy. Let them do their job, and you stick to doing yours.

👍

 

[coralfangs]

not trying to sound like an ass here but you have to be more specific

for all we know, you could be "that guy" in the class who thinks that anyone who's a bit alternative or free-spirited deserves to be thrown out of med school,


there is a difference between pre-clinical years and clinical years and many students know of it
some of us might be inappropriate around the school and get yelled at by our faculties (hell, one faculty even threatened to call the cops on me because he thinks I was going to give alcohol to minors just because I was throwing a block party and invited everyone from school)
the crucial point here is that most if not all of us know when it's okay to ignore the rules a bit (ie. not wear business attire to lectures, etc) and when it's time to be proper


seriously, when you get to work with more attendings and interact with them on a more personal basis, you will know that a lot of them don't follow direct orders or act like they have a butt plug stuck up their arses
many skip conferences or presentations that they don't have any interest in
many swear when there is no patients around
many say inappropriate things about patients and colleagues
many are late to a lot of things because they have more important things to finish


just wait til 3rd year and see how he does

 

[siliso]

I don't think you need to concern yourself with his internal attitude. Either he will get it in check and get the job done when needed, or he won't and will face the consequences. I'm thinking there must have been instructors involved who saw him in the scrubs and can deal with it as they see fit. Save the reports for when you know someone is behaving dishonestly or dangerously and harming others.

 

[Marcus Brody]

2nd year? ain't me 😀

 

[seelee]

What the hell, I already got flamed out the yang for trying to show the OP some support, might as well finish the job.

The consensus seems to be to for the OP to leave the guy alone and let him sink or swim. I agree with that consensus. I said earlier that it may be justified to inform someone, but I recant on that point.

That being said, I think that most of the responses here were hostile to the OP because they believed his motivation to be "less than pure". I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt. My take on his posts is that observed behavior that he feels is problematic and honestly wanted to know what he should do.

The other consensus seems to be that to consider a dress code violation as a "red flag" is absurd. This is based on the premise that the dress code isn't really that important, and that no patient will be harmed by failing to follow it. Other posters have said that this guy may just be "more liberal" and not be a "rule follower" which is perfectly all right.

Maybe you're all right. However, there is another recent thread where a third year student was dismissed mainly because he had a habit of being late to a rotation, and pretty much everyone agreed that he had been fairly dealt with. One poster in this thread even listed persistent tardiness as a serious problem.

My question is what makes tardiness during third year so much worse than ignoring the professional dress rule when seeing a standardized patient? I mean, its not like being late will pose any real danger to a patient. I am pretty sure that the hospital and the patient care will continue to function if a third year isn't there to hold the retractor.

Maybe it is because part of the purpose of medical school is to prepare students for the responsibility of patient care. If a student can't make the necessary preparations to be on time, then how can he be entrusted with more weighty matters? Likewise, it seems to me that a second year student who is fully aware that professional dress is required, and yet puts on scrubs anyway; and then, when reprimanded, refuses to acknowledge that he was out of line, is displaying the same deficit as the student who is late.

I don't think that this student should be dismissed out of hand, but if his attitude and actions persist, then dismissal would be fair and even justified.

But either way, the OP should stay out of it.

 

[whoknows2012]

I'm honestly just really confused with this thread...OP are you saying that the student you speak of has a blatant disregard for simple rules because he wore scrubs to a standardized patient encounter, or (as I hope is the case otherwise maybe we should be talking about reporting you) are there other things going on. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would report him for not wearing appropriate attire and then not taking responsibility for his actions...what else did he do???

 

[itellitlikeitis]

This guy is obviously just joking around

 

[Doc Hoff]

I'm honestly just really confused with this thread...OP are you saying that the student you speak of has a blatant disregard for simple rules because he wore scrubs to a standardized patient encounter, or (as I hope is the case otherwise maybe we should be talking about reporting you) are there other things going on. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would report him for not wearing appropriate attire and then not taking responsibility for his actions...what else did he do???

This was not an isolated incident, it reflects a pattern of behavior that has stretched back from the beginning of first year and has been noticed by academic and professionalism comittees. I can't go into specifics because people who are in my class would know exactly of whom I am speaking.

Either way, after reading all the responses (some ruder than others) I agree that the best course of action is to mind my own business.

I realize that I came across as someone who watches my classmates looking for infractions. Had I been in your position, I might have made the same conclusion. I would just like to assure all of my fellow anonymous posters that this anonymous poster does not have a habit of "reporting" the real or immagined misdeeds of other students. It may not have seemed so from my post, but this incident was pretty significant and I was legitimately curious as to whether I had any responsibility to share this information with faculty members.

As I said, I feel comfortable in the fact that I am not responsible for this students actions and so I am going to let the matter alone.

 

[Studios]

This was not an isolated incident, it reflects a pattern of behavior that has stretched back from the beginning of first year and has been noticed by academic and professionalism comittees. I can't go into specifics because people who are in my class would know exactly of whom I am speaking.

Either way, after reading all the responses (some ruder than others) I agree that the best course of action is to mind my own business.

I realize that I came across as someone who watches my classmates looking for infractions. Had I been in your position, I might have made the same conclusion. I would just like to assure all of my fellow anonymous posters that this anonymous poster does not have a habit of "reporting" the real or immagined misdeeds of other students. It may not have seemed so from my post, but this incident was pretty significant and I was legitimately curious as to whether I had any responsibility to share this information with faculty members.

As I said, I feel comfortable in the fact that I am not responsible for this students actions and so I am going to let the matter alone.

I think at this point I feel the need to reply. This is unfortunate and I wanted to avoid this, but the cat's out of the bag.

First of all, Those isolated incidents were accidents. That day, I did not realize we had to be professionally dressed. It is not something I want to repeat. Seriously.

There are many jobs in medicine, not all of them clinical. I am certainly not irresponsible. Third year I'll be very on alert. I certainly have steady hands.

 

[Studios]

One more thing. If I break the rules, I would expect to be appropriately reprimanded.

 

[Rollo]

I think at this point I feel the need to reply. This is unfortunate and I wanted to avoid this, but the cat's out of the bag.

First of all, Those isolated incidents were accidents. That day, I did not realize we had to be professionally dressed. It is not something I want to repeat. Seriously.

There are many jobs in medicine, not all of them clinical. I am certainly not irresponsible. Third year I'll be very on alert. I certainly have steady hands.

I don't know why you decided to come here and defend yourself. You don't need to answer to the OP. So long as your professor/dean knows that it was an honest mistake, then that is it.

Either way, good to know that you aren't a psycho who is going to shoot up the school one day.

I kid...

 

[Studios]

I don't know why you decided to come here and defend yourself. You don't need to answer to the OP. So long as your professor/dean knows that it was an honest mistake, then that is it.

Either way, good to know that you aren't a psycho who is going to shoot up the school one day.

I kid...

Lol, It's a little weird I know. Can we delete this thread?

 

[itellitlikeitis]

🙄 are you done? At least you managed to bait a few people into actually taking you seriously