How to get where I want to be

[seeker85]

---

Members don't see this ad.

For the past 6 years, my dream has been to get a PhD in clinical psych and then work at a university doing research, teaching, and also treating clients. However, after being rejected for the second year in a row, I am trying to consider other options. If I can't get in, what other degree will get me where I want to be?

The problem is, no other degree (aside from a phd in counseling, which is just as hard to get in to, or a psyD) will allow me to do all three things (research, teach, therapy). So what do I give up?

I would appreciate any information you can provide about things you can do with an MSW, MFT, or other psych related masters degree.

Alternatively, I may give up on the clinical aspect and pursue a degree in developmental or experimental psychology. Are these programs really easier to get into? I do have strong credentials (3.9 GPA, 1420 GRE, years of research experience).

Finally... what if I were to pursue a PhD in developmental or experimental, allowing me to go into academia, and then later also get an MSW so I could practice? Has that ever been done? Is that plausible?

Thanks!

 

[krisrox]

For the past 6 years, my dream has been to get a PhD in clinical psych and then work at a university doing research, teaching, and also treating clients. However, after being rejected for the second year in a row, I am trying to consider other options. If I can't get in, what other degree will get me where I want to be?

The problem is, no other degree (aside from a phd in counseling, which is just as hard to get in to, or a psyD) will allow me to do all three things (research, teach, therapy). So what do I give up?

I would appreciate any information you can provide about things you can do with an MSW, MFT, or other psych related masters degree.

Alternatively, I may give up on the clinical aspect and pursue a degree in developmental or experimental psychology. Are these programs really easier to get into? I do have strong credentials (3.9 GPA, 1420 GRE, years of research experience).

Finally... what if I were to pursue a PhD in developmental or experimental, allowing me to go into academia, and then later also get an MSW so I could practice? Has that ever been done? Is that plausible?

Thanks!

Have you considered a PsyD? You can do all three of those with that degree. And they're generally less competitive programs.

 

[roubs]

With those credentials I wonder, are you applying to the full breadth of university based Ph.D. programs or just top ones?

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

You can teach, do research, and treat patients as a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

You'll probably be teaching nursing students, rather than psychology students, but in reality there's no guarantee that your psych students are more interested in the abnormal aspect of psychology than the nursing students are.

The research you do could (potentially) be the same regardless of which career path you take, so that shouldn't be a consideration.

A good psych-NP program will give you therapy training in addition to the medication stuff.

 

[aventurine]

With those credentials I wonder, are you applying to the full breadth of university based Ph.D. programs or just top ones?

I also wonder, although there are so many qualified applicants that it may be due to chance, if you've contacted any of the programs at which you've interviewed to try to get some feedback. Not sure if you'd get a straight answer, but it seems like it may be worth a try in your situation...

 

[reluctantPhd01]

With those credentials, you should be getting offers.

1) Are you making sure that the people you are applying to work with are taking students? Is your SOP really making a compelling case? You should be mentioning faculty in your SOP and really selling yourself.

2) Are you applying to at least 15-20 programs, some selective, some not?

3) Do you have strong LORs?

4) Are you a good interviewer? Do you dress appropriately?

5) How involved in research experience? Are you doing data entry for years or are you getting actively involved, taking a leadership role, writing papers, helping where you can, really taking a lead?

6) Is there a strong discrepancy in your GRE scores? You said you have a 1420? What is the Math and Verbal?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You can teach, do research, and treat patients as a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

You'll probably be teaching nursing students, rather than psychology students, but in reality there's no guarantee that your psych students are more interested in the abnormal aspect of psychology than the nursing students are.

The research you do could (potentially) be the same regardless of which career path you take, so that shouldn't be a consideration.

A good psych-NP program will give you therapy training in addition to the medication stuff.

While you of course could do research as a psych NP, I don't know that the program itself would prepare you much for it...? I'm fairly certain that most nursing programs don't include much in the way of research methods and design, and I don't imagine the NP coursework would add much on top of that, given that I'd think most of it would focus on more in-depth physiology, pharmacology, anatomy, etc.

Also, I agree with the above posters--with your credentials, you should be getting offers if you're applying to an appropriate breadth of schools and are presenting yourself well during interviews.

 

[KillerDiller]

Finally... what if I were to pursue a PhD in developmental or experimental, allowing me to go into academia, and then later also get an MSW so I could practice? Has that ever been done? Is that plausible?

Thanks!

Just thought I'd address this part of your post. If you do end up getting a Ph.D in experimental psychology, you can go through a respecializaton program in order to get clinical experience and become licensed as a clinical psychologist. These usually take about 3 years after your Ph.D. and would make more sense than doing an MSW after earning your doctorate.

However, as long as you are applying to doctoral programs again, I encourage you to try your chances with some less selective clinical Ph.D programs too (as long as you can find ones that match). This would be a much more efficient route.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

While you of course could do research as a psych NP, I don't know that the program itself would prepare you much for it...? I'm fairly certain that most nursing programs don't include much in the way of research methods and design, and I don't imagine the NP coursework would add much on top of that, given that I'd think most of it would focus on more in-depth physiology, pharmacology, anatomy, etc.

You're absolutely correct, but the same can be said of MD programs, and plenty of them do research too!

Just like MD's, as a psych NP you can become a researcher. I think it would be a matter of getting the research experience yourself through formal programs (some NP programs have a thesis component), informal experiences (summer research), or after graduation.

For after graduation, there are at least a couple different ways you could get this experience: (1) Get another degree (MPH, MCR). (2) Get hired as a Research Associate (lots of NP's needed for these gigs: see patients, manage prescriptions, etc.). I'd say that option #2 sounds better! After you have some experience in these arenas, if you could get yourself hired at a nursing school you could potentially branch out as a PI (although you'd probably need additional training/experience to compete for NIH funding).

I know they aren't popular on studentdoctor.net, and I'm not here to defend them, but let me just say that some DNP programs have research as part of their training.

I'm not saying that any of this is 100% the way that the OP should go, or the way anyone should go, but he/she was looking for other options and this is an option 🙂

 

[Phipps]

For the past 6 years, my dream has been to get a PhD in clinical psych and then work at a university doing research, teaching, and also treating clients. However, after being rejected for the second year in a row, I am trying to consider other options. If I can't get in, what other degree will get me where I want to be?

The problem is, no other degree (aside from a phd in counseling, which is just as hard to get in to, or a psyD) will allow me to do all three things (research, teach, therapy). So what do I give up?

I would appreciate any information you can provide about things you can do with an MSW, MFT, or other psych related masters degree.

Alternatively, I may give up on the clinical aspect and pursue a degree in developmental or experimental psychology. Are these programs really easier to get into? I do have strong credentials (3.9 GPA, 1420 GRE, years of research experience).

Finally... what if I were to pursue a PhD in developmental or experimental, allowing me to go into academia, and then later also get an MSW so I could practice? Has that ever been done? Is that plausible?

Thanks!

Three things:

1) maybe reapply to Ph.D. programs or 2) to Ph.D. and Psy.D. parallel to each other (Psy.D. degree may rule out teaching though or would make you less competitive in academia) or, 3) have you looked into Ed.D. programs or Ph.D. programs in counseling (not counseling psychology but counseling)?? ...or even Ph.D. programs in SW -you probably would not have the pre-requisits for the latter but can get them 🙂

 

[psychapps]

With those credentials, you should be getting offers.

1) Are you making sure that the people you are applying to work with are taking students? Is your SOP really making a compelling case? You should be mentioning faculty in your SOP and really selling yourself.

2) Are you applying to at least 15-20 programs, some selective, some not?

3) Do you have strong LORs?

4) Are you a good interviewer? Do you dress appropriately?

5) How involved in research experience? Are you doing data entry for years or are you getting actively involved, taking a leadership role, writing papers, helping where you can, really taking a lead?

6) Is there a strong discrepancy in your GRE scores? You said you have a 1420? What is the Math and Verbal?

I had similar stats and background as the OP, and didn't get into any programs my first year (no interviews either). I believe points 1 and 2 played a big factor. I applied to only selective schools, I checked with some but not all professors to see if they were taking students, and I didn't take that extra time to really tailor my statement to each school (from start to finish, not just by subbing in a "why this school, why this prof" paragraph). Another factor was that, despite 2 years of research experience, I hadn't yet presented at conferences or started work on any pubs.

This year, I fixed all of these things, and got accepted at multiple programs at all ends of the spectrum. My advice to the OP would be to find a few advisors who can take a look at your application and tell you what they think went wrong. You might want to have them do a mock interview too, in case your interviewing style (or clothing, appearance, etc.) is tripping you up. I agree with reluctantPhD01, with these stats you should be getting in somewhere.

 

[roubs]

Definitely agree with psychapps. Have you had a working professional review your SOP?

 

[seeker85]

I had similar stats and background as the OP, and didn't get into any programs my first year (no interviews either). I believe points 1 and 2 played a big factor. I applied to only selective schools, I checked with some but not all professors to see if they were taking students, and I didn't take that extra time to really tailor my statement to each school (from start to finish, not just by subbing in a "why this school, why this prof" paragraph). Another factor was that, despite 2 years of research experience, I hadn't yet presented at conferences or started work on any pubs.

This year, I fixed all of these things, and got accepted at multiple programs at all ends of the spectrum. My advice to the OP would be to find a few advisors who can take a look at your application and tell you what they think went wrong. You might want to have them do a mock interview too, in case your interviewing style (or clothing, appearance, etc.) is tripping you up. I agree with reluctantPhD01, with these stats you should be getting in somewhere.

With those credentials, you should be getting offers.

1) Are you making sure that the people you are applying to work with are taking students? Is your SOP really making a compelling case? You should be mentioning faculty in your SOP and really selling yourself.

2) Are you applying to at least 15-20 programs, some selective, some not?

3) Do you have strong LORs?

4) Are you a good interviewer? Do you dress appropriately?

5) How involved in research experience? Are you doing data entry for years or are you getting actively involved, taking a leadership role, writing papers, helping where you can, really taking a lead?

6) Is there a strong discrepancy in your GRE scores? You said you have a 1420? What is the Math and Verbal?

First of all, thank you to everyone who replied!!

To address the above questions:

1) Yes, both times I applied I emailed POIs ahead of time to ensure that they were taking students. I also thought both times that I was making a compelling case in my SOP, and had current grad students, post docs, and interns (5th year grad students interning at my research site) read over the statement. I discussed all my experience and also how everything I have done has led me to where I am and to pursuing a phd in clinical psych.

2) I applied to 14 the first year, and 18 the second. But what makes a program selective? In my experience, ALL clinical psych phd programs are selective. I applied to some more research focused (i.e. UCLA) and some more balanced (i.e. George Mason) and ones with all ranges of mean GRE scores.

3) I am worried that LORs may be where I am weak. I have only ever had professors and employers love me, but I don't know that I stood out beyond the one semester I was in their class, or above other employees. So while they only have positive things to say, I am pretty sure I don't have any "____ is the best worker I have ever had" statements in there...

4) I am a good interviewer, but my problem has been getting the interviews! I only got 1 the first year and 2 the second. I did well enough at one of the 2 this past year that I was first alternate, but the girl offered the spot accepted :-(

5) I worked full time for 2 years as a research assistant, where I coordinated studies from start to finish, and I detailed all of this in my SOP. I recruited, phone screened, administered IQ tests, neuropsych batteries, analyzed data, assisted with grant writing, IRB proposals, 2nd and 3rd author on multiple posters, and have 2 publications (not as first author, though).

6) I do have to admit that while I have always been praised for my writing skills, my analytical writing score was very disappointing-- 4.5. However, I have heard that the writing score is not very important. The split between my V and Q was not that great.

It really seems to me that it is the competitiveness of this program that is hurting me. I know that I would excel as a grad student, if only I could get in!

 

[InNae]

Ditto the suggestion to have someone who already has a PhD review your SOP. Faculty members in PhD programs have seen many of these and can easily spot relatively weak areas or omissions in the statement.

Your point about LORs is a good one. It can be quite helpful to get a copy of one of the recommendation forms that PhD programs often request along with the freeform letter (you can google and download these forms, and they're all similar, so just search for some from programs similar to your programs of interest). Recommenders are asked to rate the applicant on a variety of relevant characteristics (e.g., initiative, motivation, emotional maturity), and I don't think that most applicants think about how important these ratings can be in winnowing the pool from several hundred to several. In addition to thinking about how recommenders will discuss your objective qualifications, think about how they might rate you on these more comparative and subjective qualifications. Then work on the ones you think need more emphasis!

Finally, you state your desire to teach, conduct research, and do clinical work. This is obviously just fine and many people do all three, but some people interpret SOPs that emphasize all three as someone who really mostly wants to do clinical work but is mentioning teaching/research because they know it's important. Contrast that with people who say/emphasize that they want to do research and teach - fair or not, these folks sound like safer bets (in terms of having students who will do well in a research-oriented degree program). Consider whether you want to explicitly emphasize your interest in clinical work in your SOP. You'll be trained to do clinical work, and you will be able to do clinical work post-degree, so not emphasizing it in your statement will not affect your training and might enhance your chances.

 

[seeker85]

Many of you mentioned that I should potentially re-apply to less selective clinical psych phd programs. My question is: do these really exist? and if so, what qualifies a program as less selective?

if you have any specific schools as examples, that would be great!

thanks so much!

 

[cara susanna]

Admissions data will tell you that. Use number of applicants vs. accepted.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

While not 100% accurate, another component of program selectivity can be geographic desirability. In general, schools in major cities and/or in popular geographic destinations tend to receive more applications.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

For the past 6 years, my dream has been to get a PhD in clinical psych and then work at a university doing research, teaching, and also treating clients. However, after being rejected for the second year in a row, I am trying to consider other options. If I can't get in, what other degree will get me where I want to be?

The problem is, no other degree (aside from a phd in counseling, which is just as hard to get in to, or a psyD) will allow me to do all three things (research, teach, therapy). So what do I give up?

I would appreciate any information you can provide about things you can do with an MSW, MFT, or other psych related masters degree.

Alternatively, I may give up on the clinical aspect and pursue a degree in developmental or experimental psychology. Are these programs really easier to get into? I do have strong credentials (3.9 GPA, 1420 GRE, years of research experience).

Finally... what if I were to pursue a PhD in developmental or experimental, allowing me to go into academia, and then later also get an MSW so I could practice? Has that ever been done? Is that plausible?

Thanks!

Have you considered a Have you considered a PhD in social work? There are PhD programs in social work where you can do clinical research, teach and see clients. You will not be able to do testing, though. The good thing about social work is that you can be licensed as an independent practitioner in 47 states. You also could do a PhD in marriage and family therapy, which will also enable you to do research, teach, and treat clients. University of Texas and Ohio State have reputable programs in MFT. Lastly, you could also get a PhD in school psychology, especially if you are interested in working with children and doing testing. In my state, someone with a PhD in school psychology can be licensed as a psychologist and test and treat many different populations. With a PhD in school psychology, you can teach, do research, and treat clients and in some states, have the same privileges as someone with a PhD in clinical or counseling psyc, or a PsyD. A PsyD can teach in a PsyD program, but you may not be able to do as much teaching or research with a PsyD. School psychology PhD programs are not nearly as competitive as clinical and counseling PhD programs. Counselor education PhD may also be an option for you. I was in your position once and did as much research as I could to reach my career goal. I considered all my options and chose the PsyD based on my goals. Hope this helps you. Good luck.

An MSW will enable you to practice psychotherapy only. I got an MSW myself because I was concerned that I would never get into clinical psychology. My advisor has a PhD in developmental psychology; however, my state allows for MA level psychologists, so she is a licensed psychologist due to her MA in clinical psychology and has the same rights as a doctoral level clinical psychologist in my state. I don't see why you can't practice with an MSW. The only issue is that you cannot do testing without a clinical, counseling, or school psych PhD (well, I am not sure if you can or cannot do testing with a developmental psych degree). A professor of mine in social work has a PhD in marriage and family therapy and he said he gets the "psychologist pay rate" for therapy. An MSW wouldn't hurt you as a clinician. If you pursue an MSW, choose a clinical social work program that focuses on therapy. Do not choose a generalist program; they'll make you take classes that have nothing to do with therapy and you will not be as prepared as a counselor or marriage and family therapist.

 

[seeker85]

I think my plan for next year will be to apply to a few clinical phd programs, counseling phd, developmental phd, and school psych (maybe 2-4 each), plus 1-3 masters programs and maybe a psyd or 2.

I noticed that there are PhD and EdD programs, as well as masters for school psych. Are there differences in what you can do with each type of school psych degree?

Also, what are the benefits of an MSW over an MFT or MA in counseling? Are any of these 3 degrees better than the others?

 

[roubs]

As far as finding less selective (aka ones that takes 5-10% of applicants instead of 2-3% 🙂 ) Have you tried looking at the Insider's Guide and looked at programs that are less well known?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

With a PhD in school psychology, you can teach, do research, and treat clients and in some states, have the same privileges as someone with a PhD in clinical or counseling psyc, or a PsyD. A PsyD can teach in a PsyD program, but you may not be able to do as much teaching or research with a PsyD.

You can do as much or as little research or teaching as you would like, the rub is needing to prove yourself up front because programs want to know you can produce. If you have a track record of bringing in $$-grants, you have a solid publishing history, and you have at least decent teaching reviews...a university will hire you. The first part is most important, as $ talks; publishing is a close second. Universities don't want to be on the hook for your salary, and they need reasons to justify keeping you on staff. If you really want to be competitive, apply to jobs with grant $ in hand that will cover you from Day 1.

If you know you want to be primarily an academic and go for tenure, get a Ph.D. because that is the standard. Tenure-track positions are becoming ridiculously competitive, so you want to avoid any possible reason for a program to cut you.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I think my plan for next year will be to apply to a few clinical phd programs, counseling phd, developmental phd, and school psych (maybe 2-4 each), plus 1-3 masters programs and maybe a psyd or 2.

I noticed that there are PhD and EdD programs, as well as masters for school psych. Are there differences in what you can do with each type of school psych degree?

Also, what are the benefits of an MSW over an MFT or MA in counseling? Are any of these 3 degrees better than the others?

In my state, a school psychologist with an EdD or PhD can practice outside the schools and is eligible for licensure as a psychologist and school psychologist. An MA/EdS school psychologist is limited to the schools and can be licesned as a psychologist and school psychologist (my state has masters level psychology licensure).

As for the MA, MSW and MFT, it depends on the state. In my state, MSWs are the only masters level licensed therapists besides pscyhologists that are independent (they don't have to work under someone else's supervision). Some states have Licensed Mental Health Counselors which can practice independently too, but only in the states that have them. Mine does not. MFTs deal mostly with children and families. My state does not have licensure for MFTs. The MSW is "the top of the foodchain" among masters level providers according to my LPC friend, but that may just be in my area. I got an MSW because they can practice independently and can be reimbursed by insurance companies. If you choose an MSW, go to a program with a clear clinical social work emphasis and NOT a generalist clinical focus (e.g. "direct practice" which means everything from therapist to case amanger to CPS worker). Hope this helps.

 

[ClinicalTrainee]

1) Yes, both times I applied I emailed POIs ahead of time to ensure that they were taking students. I also thought both times that I was making a compelling case in my SOP, and had current grad students, post docs, and interns (5th year grad students interning at my research site) read over the statement. I discussed all my experience and also how everything I have done has led me to where I am and to pursuing a phd in clinical psych.

The other thing to consider is how/if you presented your research interests. Sounds like you have a host of research experience, but did you draw a clear connection between what research you've done before and what you want to do from here? As many others have pointed out, the majority of PhD programs operate from a mentorship model, so the research match is essential. Are you writing the names of potential POIs in your SOP? Are you clearly articulating what you like about their research and why you want to do something similar in your career?

I know when I applied, I didn't get many interviews because I had limited research experience (not your problem, obviously) and because I was vague about what I wanted to study. I mentioned POIs from the same program who studied vastly different things because they sounded interesting, which probably made me look like a flake who just wanted to get in somewhere and not someone who was looking to develop a program of research.

Just another reason to have someone you trust to give you honest feedback (ideally a faculty member) review your SOP.