How to leverage being a nocturnist during negotiations

[pollyspockets]

I’m a current PGY3 starting to look a jobs. I generally like night shifts the best and would definitely consider doing all nights. What’s the best way to bring this up in negotiations so I don’t sell myself short? What do you ask for in return?

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[Hercules]

Depends. If you’re looking at SDGs you could definitely negotiate a shorter partnership track (or less of a buy in depending on how the group words it).


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[Birdstrike]

I’m a current PGY3 starting to look a jobs. I generally like night shifts the best and would definitely consider doing all nights. What’s the best way to bring this up in negotiations so I don’t sell myself short? What do you ask for in return?

It depends what you want in return. Do you want more pay? Do you want less shifts? Do you want less weekends? Less holidays?

Determine what you value the most, and want the most in return and then use the offer of locking in to do all nights, as a bargaining chip. Never hurts to try. The worst that can happen is that they say, "No."

 

[BoardingDoc]

I’m a current PGY3 starting to look a jobs. I generally like night shifts the best and would definitely consider doing all nights. What’s the best way to bring this up in negotiations so I don’t sell myself short? What do you ask for in return?

I would be sure to figure out exactly what the offer is for you as a regular doc, not as a nocturnist (unless the group isn't hiring anyone except a night doc). Once you know what they're offering for regular shifts, only then would I bring up that you would consider doing all nights in exchange for <insert whatever you want here>. Most nocturnists I know have the ability to pick their schedule, whereas everyone else is simply assigned one. They also tend to get paid a differential.

 

[Groove]

$30-40/hr night differential. Anything less is not worth it IMO. In my experience, SDGs are the only ones that might consider a diff that high. Most CMGs don't... seems to be more on the order of $10/hr -$15/hr if at all. On the other hand, if you prefer nights, regardless of whether there is a diff and plan on asking regardless, def don't show that card until the very end of negotiations. The reality is that everyone values a nocturnist but few want to pay out of pocket for it. We offered a diff at my current gig and everyone was on board until the CMG suggested taking a few dollars out of the day docs pocket to pay for it. Then there was great consternation and gnashing of teeth and tea party level protests which led to it getting shot down pretty quickly.

Our current nocturnist doesn't get a diff to my knowledge, but he gets to make his own schedule and greatly prefers nights. Personally, I don't mind nights at all and would probably prefer it if I could work them 100% of the time but def wouldn't do it for free.

 

[Angry Birds]

Don't ever say you enjoy doing night shifts. Just say: "I'm willing to be a nocturnist if I can get some schedule priority and a reasonable differential." You can also say: "I'm young right now, so I don't mind nights. Hopefully I can help the group out by decreasing everyone's nights." (Read the book "Getting to Yes.")

Always, always, always know what the other docs are being paid, and what the going rate is around the area, including nocturnists. And you MUST talk to multiple hospitals in the area in order to increase your bargaining power.

 

[Tenk]

Get the job first then negotiate. You’ll get a better deal if people like you and want to hold onto you. Also, this will allow you an out back to days if it turns out you dislike working all nights. I LOVED nights in residency and pretty much only did moonlighting night shifts but now several years out I loathe them. I was a nocturnist for like 5 months and it got progressively worse until I made the switch back and will never look back.

 

[Angry Birds]

Get the job first then negotiate. You’ll get a better deal if people like you and want to hold onto you. Also, this will allow you an out back to days if it turns out you dislike working all nights. I LOVED nights in residency and pretty much only did moonlighting night shifts but now several years out I loathe them. I was a nocturnist for like 5 months and it got progressively worse until I made the switch back and will never look back.

I'm sorry, but the bolded/underlined above is the worst possible advice. You lose your negotiating power once you sign on the dotted line.

 

[Tenk]

I'm sorry, but the bolded/underlined above is the worst possible advice. You lose your negotiating power once you sign on the dotted line.

Not if you’re good. 8)

Speaking from personal experience as well as a buddy of mine who did the same thing.

 

[Angry Birds]

Not if you’re good. 8)

Speaking from personal experience as well as a buddy of mine who did the same thing.

Yeah, what can I say--that's BS, anecdotal, and just plain bad advice. Pick up any book on negotiating and you will see that this is the worst possible advice to give to someone, especially someone entering the work force.

You can be plenty good and be taken advantage of and/or not be paid what you're really worth, especially in today's day and age of CMG's, etc. How much you make has little to do with how "good" you are. It has to do with supply/demand, negotiating power, etc.

Yes, you may have found that amazing pie-in-the-sky work environment, where they pay you more because they like you and you're so phenomenally good, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I left a job and came back to it, and my pay increased by more than a third to get me back. (That's how "phenomenally good" I am.) This experience made me realize that: 1) I was a chump the first time I worked for them, 2) I undervalued myself, and 3) I did a horrible job negotiating the first time around. And, most important for our discussion here: 4) I realized that had I stayed with the same job and asked for a pay bump, the most I would have gotten would be an incremental pay increase. But, by leaving and then them having to get me back, suddenly my bargaining power was through the roof, especially because I was "sooo good" and they wanted me back.

Lastly: If you're already at a place and then decide to negotiate after awhile, be ready to walk. If you're not, good luck on getting that pay raise. And, in any case, your negotiating power is the highest before you sign on the dotted line.

Negotiating your salary is the same as negotiating anything else in life, whether it's buying a car, house, etc. As soon as they know they got you, you lose negotiating power. And the single best thing you can do is have multiple competing offers, so that your heart is not stuck on one option alone.

 

[Tenk]

Yeah, what can I say--that's BS, anecdotal, and just plain bad advice. Pick up any book on negotiating and you will see that this is the worst possible advice to give to someone, especially someone entering the work force.

You can be plenty good and be taken advantage of and/or not be paid what you're really worth, especially in today's day and age of CMG's, etc. How much you make has little to do with how "good" you are. It has to do with supply/demand, negotiating power, etc.

Yes, you may have found that amazing pie-in-the-sky work environment, where they pay you more because they like you and you're so phenomenally good, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I left a job and came back to it, and my pay increased by more than a third to get me back. (That's how "phenomenally good" I am.) This experience made me realize that: 1) I was a chump the first time I worked for them, 2) I undervalued myself, and 3) I did a horrible job negotiating the first time around. And, most important for our discussion here: 4) I realized that had I stayed with the same job and asked for a pay bump, the most I would have gotten would be an incremental pay increase. But, by leaving and then them having to get me back, suddenly my bargaining power was through the roof, especially because I was "sooo good" and they wanted me back.

Lastly: If you're already at a place and then decide to negotiate after awhile, be ready to walk. If you're not, good luck on getting that pay raise. And, in any case, your negotiating power is the highest before you sign on the dotted line.

Negotiating your salary is the same as negotiating anything else in life, whether it's buying a car, house, etc. As soon as they know they got you, you lose negotiating power. And the single best thing you can do is have multiple competing offers, so that your heart is not stuck on one option alone.

Well I guess I am just a better negotiator than you are.

 

[deleted109597]

Well I guess I am just a better negotiator than you are.

Tough to negotiate an already signed contract. It's, like, binding and all.

 

[thegenius]

Negotiation is always easier before the contract is signed....that's an ostensible statement. However you can continue to look for jobs while you are employed.

I think....the most important thing is to like where you are working, and you can't figure that out from the interview. It's not the worst thing in the world to work at 2-3 places concurrently out of residency, maybe 5 shifts/month at each place. Determine which place you like the best. Then make them a full time offer if they have it. I'm 4.3 years out and have worked at 3 different hospital systems (4 distinct hospitals) and I wouldn't move to another location without trying it out first. There are lots of s&^t jobs out there.

You should, as a nocturnist
- minimally make $20-25/hr extra
- make your own schedule (e.g. working Sun/Mon/Tue nights every month...)
- get out of other admin responsibilities if possible

 

[Angry Birds]

Well I guess I am just a better negotiator than you are.

You might be. Doesn’t change your $hitty advice.

 

[Tenk]

Tough to negotiate an already signed contract. It's, like, binding and all.

Not really. It’s a piece of paper. I’ve had mine altered a few times. A lot of it is also not really enforceable. Did you know that in certain states, non-competes are actually against state law and cannot be enforced because they are illegal. People get so hung up over contracts when they are mostly just there for show and scare tactics

 

[Tenk]

You might be. Doesn’t change your $hitty advice.

You are allowed to have your opinion even if it's wrong. Keep being afraid of contracts and the big bad wolf.

 

[RustedFox]

Tough to negotiate an already signed contract. It's, like, binding and all.

I can't consider it binding whenever one party (the CMG) can change the terms whenever they want to for whatever reason or no reason at all.
Happened to me twice now.

"Here's your new contract."
Thanks.
( 6 months later )
"Here's your new-NEW contract; it has lots of stuff that you don't want in there because we felt like changing it."
Uh, no. Shove it. Goodbye.

 

[deleted109597]

You are allowed to have your opinion even if it's wrong. Keep being afraid of contracts and the big bad wolf.

We've got plenty of bargaining chips. But contracts are weird, and while your state/locality may not enforce things such as non-competes or end of contract notices, others do.
There's no blanket statement to be made. Plenty of physicians have been royally screwed by contracts.
Of course, binding means binding. So if they break the terms, you can simply claim breach of contract and get out of it that way.

 

[Tenk]

We've got plenty of bargaining chips. But contracts are weird, and while your state/locality may not enforce things such as non-competes or end of contract notices, others do.
There's no blanket statement to be made. Plenty of physicians have been royally screwed by contracts.
Of course, binding means binding. So if they break the terms, you can simply claim breach of contract and get out of it that way.

Contracts are important. You should read them. You should hire a lawyer to read them (or be friends with lawyers like me). Nobody is arguing that. You all are arguing that you somehow lose bargaining power to turn from a day shifter to a nocturnist after you sign a contract which is simply not true in 99% of the jobs out there. Most ED docs HATE night shifts. If they didn’t, nocturnists would be paid less, not more. Unless a job already has fully staffed nocturnists you will not lose bargaining power and if you play your cards right and get all the other docs on board with you being a nocturnist you can get a lot more bang for your buck.

When I negotiated, I got a pay increase, the ability to make my own schedule, the ability to reduce my shift burden by 20% and still be full time and the ability to go back to days whenever I wanted without anyone able to say otherwise. Good luck negotiating all that during the interview. If you can pull that one off you’re a baller. That last bit though is the most crucial piece at a new job. How the hell do you know you will enjoy nights at a new job? YOU DON’T!!!! You never worked there, so it may be hell. The nurses might suck. The patients might suck. The hospitalists might suck. The specialists may be lazy as hell at night. You don’t know until you work there, so why the hell would you sign a contract to work nights with zero knowledge of what it would be like. Also, you would probably have a much harder time transitioning to days when you sign on as a nocturnist.

In the end do whatever you want, just don’t believe for a minute that contracts are set in stone, they aren’t.