How to match ENT as a DO?

[GP0618]

I figured with the Match recently happening now would be the best time to ask the question in the title. I’m an incoming OMS1 with aspirations of becoming an ENT. I know I may be premature in asking this question, but I know ENT is competitive and by the time I take Step it may be P/F (I would be taking it in 2022 which would be the earliest that would be implemented).

My current background includes:
•Two year’s experience as a medical assistant for an ENT (not sure that matters or not)
•Two first author publications in ENT related fields.
•A poster presentation over one of the articles.
•Potentially, if things work out, two additional first author publications before starting classes this fall.
•The ENT I work for has connections to the ENT program at the medical school I will be attending.

I’m just looking for general advice on the best ways to be proactive. Do I introduce myself to the program director this summer prior to starting class? Do I attempt to shadow at the program this summer? Or even step further to see if they have anything I could help on research wise? Any advice would be appreciated.

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[slowthai]

1. Jump on research as early as possible. Now, even. Publish or perish.

2 Attend conference regularly. Like, become a permanent fixture at your home ENT program, lol. But don't be annoying

3. Honor all your rotations

4. Just absolutely destroy step 2

5. Smash your home audition

6. Rotate at as many former AOA programs as humanly possible, and of course, crush

I wouldn't introduce myself to the PD. It wouldn't do much of anything. He/she'd probably forget your name before the meeting was over. Throughout this process, try to find one or two serious mentors that would be willing to back you.

Edit: One more thing. Reach out to people that have matched ENT from your school in recent times (if any) and/or from other DO schools. They can really give you killer advice and can even connect you with other people that can be a big help.

 

[Preston Garvey]

You have a pretty nice advantage going to a school with an associated ENT program. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try and get in contact with that program your first year; however i would avoid contacting the program director. I would contact the program coordinator and ask if you could join a didactic session or if you could do some shadowing. It’s good to show interest early but don’t be overbearing. It’s easy to come off as the annoying medical student lol. honestly I would also try to keep an open mind since you are just starting school. There are so many medical specialities and if you narrow your focus so early you might miss out on something you truly love. This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t be working hard from the get go. Doing well in school, publishing and getting good board scores does one thing. It keeps doors open. All that said ENT
Is hands down the dopest specialty haha. Awesome anatomy, awesome technology and lots of amazing people to work with.
So in recap, do as good as you can in school, get the highest step 2 you can, publish as much as you can, and network as much as you can haha. I don’t think it’s necessary to go to any conferences. It’s just an extra expense and at the end of the day it’s not going to change your place on a rank list. I have more specifics advice for 3rd years so hit me up when you get closer! Also feel free to shoot me any questions you have! I rotated and interviewed at most of the former DO ENT programs.

 

[slowthai]

You have a pretty nice advantage going to a school with an associated ENT program. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try and get in contact with that program your first year; however i would avoid contacting the program director. I would contact the program coordinator and ask if you could join a didactic session or if you could do some shadowing. It’s good to show interest early but don’t be overbearing. It’s easy to come off as the annoying medical student lol. honestly I would also try to keep an open mind since you are just starting school. There are so many medical specialities and if you narrow your focus so early you might miss out on something you truly love. This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t be working hard from the get go. Doing well in school, publishing and getting good board scores does one thing. It keeps doors open. All that said ENT
Is hands down the dopest specialty haha. Awesome anatomy, awesome technology and lots of amazing people to work with.
So in recap, do as good as you can in school, get the highest step 2 you can, publish as much as you can, and network as much as you can haha. I don’t think it’s necessary to go to any conferences. It’s just an extra expense and at the end of the day it’s not going to change your place on a rank list. I have more specifics advice for 3rd years so hit me up when you get closer! Also feel free to shoot me any questions you have! I rotated and interviewed at most of the former DO ENT programs.

Aha, when I said conference I was talking about the weekly conferences that residents attend. But I totally agree, I think going to regional/national conferences is largely a waste. People go to conferences for "networking", but I have never heard of anyone actually improving their chances in the match by going. Your networking should be with your home program (if you have one) and on aways.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Aha, when I said conference I was talking about the weekly conferences that residents attend. But I totally agree, I think going to regional/national conferences is largely a waste. People go to conferences for "networking", but I have never heard of anyone actually improving their chances in the match by going. Your networking should be with your home program (if you have one) and on aways.

Med students need to be careful with this. It's pretty program dependent on whether or not they like it. Ortho expects it but I know our ENT program really isn't very big on having med students show up to their didactics repeatedly. A lot of other programs don't like it either.

Just my n=1 experience with our programs.

 

[slowthai]

Med students need to be careful with this. It's pretty program dependent on whether or not they like it. Ortho expects it but I know our ENT program really isn't very big on having med students show up to their didactics repeatedly. A lot of other programs don't like it either.

Just my n=1 experience with our programs.

That makes sense. Yeah, I noticed ENT can be somewhat different from the other surgical subs in some respects. In that case, maybe OP should get in touch with a resident and see how they feel about it.

And I wasn't talking about going every week, lol. I imagine you'd totally annoy people without even trying, lol. Personally, I'd go once a month or so.

 

[GP0618]

1. Jump on research as early as possible. Now, even. Publish or perish.

2 Attend conference regularly. Like, become a permanent fixture at your home ENT program, lol. But don't be annoying

3. Honor all your rotations

4. Just absolutely destroy step 2

5. Smash your home audition

6. Rotate at as many former AOA programs as humanly possible, and of course, crush

I wouldn't introduce myself to the PD. It wouldn't do much of anything. He/she'd probably forget your name before the meeting was over. Throughout this process, try to find one or two serious mentors that would be willing to back you.

Edit: One more thing. Reach out to people that have matched ENT from your school in recent times (if any) and/or from other DO schools. They can really give you killer advice and can even connect you with other people that can be a big help.

Thank you for the advice. Is there a good way to go about contacting previous grads?

 

[GP0618]

You have a pretty nice advantage going to a school with an associated ENT program. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to try and get in contact with that program your first year; however i would avoid contacting the program director. I would contact the program coordinator and ask if you could join a didactic session or if you could do some shadowing. It’s good to show interest early but don’t be overbearing. It’s easy to come off as the annoying medical student lol. honestly I would also try to keep an open mind since you are just starting school. There are so many medical specialities and if you narrow your focus so early you might miss out on something you truly love. This isn’t to say that you shouldn’t be working hard from the get go. Doing well in school, publishing and getting good board scores does one thing. It keeps doors open. All that said ENT
Is hands down the dopest specialty haha. Awesome anatomy, awesome technology and lots of amazing people to work with.
So in recap, do as good as you can in school, get the highest step 2 you can, publish as much as you can, and network as much as you can haha. I don’t think it’s necessary to go to any conferences. It’s just an extra expense and at the end of the day it’s not going to change your place on a rank list. I have more specifics advice for 3rd years so hit me up when you get closer! Also feel free to shoot me any questions you have! I rotated and interviewed at most of the former DO ENT programs.

This is great, thank you. Also, congratulations on all of the interviews. I’m doing my best to go in with an open mind, but as you mentioned ENT is great. I love the procedures, work/life balance, the patient relationships you can build, and the wide demographic range of patients.

 

[GP0618]

Med students need to be careful with this. It's pretty program dependent on whether or not they like it. Ortho expects it but I know our ENT program really isn't very big on having med students show up to their didactics repeatedly. A lot of other programs don't like it either.

Just my n=1 experience with our programs.

Just from reading some of your post I believe I will be attending the school you are currently at, so thank you for that input. I definitely don’t want to be a nuisance.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thank you for the advice. Is there a good way to go about contacting previous grads?

Just from reading some of your post I believe I will be attending the school you are currently at, so thank you for that input. I definitely don’t want to be a nuisance.

Once you start school you will know who the people to talk to are. The upper levels applying ENT/those just matched are all pretty willing to be helpful and give advice.

Get A’s and get Research. Those are the first steps here and are essential.

 

[slowthai]

Thank you for the advice. Is there a good way to go about contacting previous grads?

No problem. I would reach out to some program coordinators. Tell them that you're an incoming med student interested in ENT, and ask if they would be willing to connect you with any residents.

 

[Peach Newport]

You can get ENT if you want it more than everyone else. You need to spend every minute grinding hard for it. You also need to always consider a backup specialty you’d be happy in. I can’t emphasize this part enough. Manage your expectations enough to keep your stress down, but work harder than everyone else - and make it obvious that you did.


1) Be aggressive about research. You’re gonna need a hell of a lot more pubs than 2. I think 15-20 split among abstracts/posters/pubs would be a good goal, at minimum.

2) Get solid mentors who will go to bat for you. The more they publish, the better.

3) crush whatever boards you can.

4) away rotations - do a lot, at places DOs have matched.

5) contact DOs who have matched

6) This part is so underrated - work on your social/cool factor. Work on being social and charismatic. Go to the gym, work at dressing well.

7) practice an amazing answer your why you want to do ENT. Always be able to answer this question, from the start of medical school. Make sure it’s honest, and not overly noble-sounding. This answer will change. People - students, teachers, mentors, PDs... will be asking you this question for all 4 years of med school.

 

[GP0618]

You can get ENT if you want it more than everyone else. You need to spend every minute grinding hard for it. You also need to always consider a backup specialty you’d be happy in. I can’t emphasize this part enough. Manage your expectations enough to keep your stress down, but work harder than everyone else - and make it obvious that you did.


1) Be aggressive about research. You’re gonna need a hell of a lot more pubs than 2. I think 15-20 split among abstracts/posters/pubs would be a good goal, at minimum.

2) Get solid mentors who will go to bat for you. The more they publish, the better.

3) crush whatever boards you can.

4) away rotations - do a lot, at places DOs have matched.

5) contact DOs who have matched

6) This part is so underrated - work on your social/cool factor. Work on being social and charismatic. Go to the gym, work at dressing well.

7) practice an amazing answer your why you want to do ENT. Always be able to answer this question, from the start of medical school. Make sure it’s honest, and not overly noble-sounding. This answer will change. People - students, teachers, mentors, PDs... will be asking you this question for all 4 years of med school.

Thank you! I appreciate all the advice I can get.

 

[DameJulie]

Be aggressive about research. You’re gonna need a hell of a lot more pubs than 2. I think 15-20 split among abstracts/posters/pubs would be a good goal, at minimum.

Is this 15-20 research pubs include undergraduate pubs and posters? If not, how do you recommend to approach this level of output for OMS who do not have many research time and opportunities?

 

[Peach Newport]

Is this 15-20 research pubs include undergraduate pubs and posters? If not, how do you recommend to approach this level of output for OMS who do not have many research time and opportunities?

undergrad research absolutely counts toward this. I knew a guy who matched a surgical specialty with most of his pubs in undergrad.

and yes, being a DO will severely limit your research opportunities. This is a major reason why DOs have a hard time matching competitive surgical specialties, and why people who want these specialties are advised to go US MD.

And like I said, you will need to work harder than everyone else. This means you need to be grinding like crazy to find people who will work with you, and budget your time extremely carefully. Make sure your grades and boards come first. 30 pubs means nothing if your scores don’t meet the cutoff.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is this 15-20 research pubs include undergraduate pubs and posters? If not, how do you recommend to approach this level of output for OMS who do not have many research time and opportunities?

You don't need 15-20 outcomes to match ENT. Don't get me wrong, there are applicants out there with that many but the majority do not. I know multiple ENT residents that had minimal research, although having high quality research is a big deal to a number of programs.

 

[Kingman123]

undergrad research absolutely counts toward this. I knew a guy who matched a surgical specialty with most of his pubs in undergrad.

and yes, being a DO will severely limit your research opportunities. This is a major reason why DOs have a hard time matching competitive surgical specialties, and why people who want these specialties are advised to go US MD.

And like I said, you will need to work harder than everyone else. This means you need to be grinding like crazy to find people who will work with you, and budget your time extremely carefully. Make sure your grades and boards come first. 30 pubs means nothing if your scores don’t meet the cutoff.

I have a question regarding this, does any research from undergrad count towards residency? I'm interested in anesthesia and neuro and I have some research from undergrad (1 pub, 5 posters all from neuroscience research). Sorry to detract from the original ENT discussion!

 

[Preston Garvey]

You don't need 15-20 outcomes to match ENT. Don't get me wrong, there are applicants out there with that many but the majority do not. I know multiple ENT residents that had minimal research, although having high quality research is a big deal to a number of programs.

agree

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have a question regarding this, does any research from undergrad count towards residency? I'm interested in anesthesia and neuro and I have some research from undergrad (1 pub, 5 posters all from neuroscience research). Sorry to detract from the original ENT discussion!

Yes it all counts. I've been told it can look bad if you have all this undergrad research and then haven't done any in med school but undergrad research definitely counts.

 

[Kingman123]

Yes it all counts. I've been told it can look bad if you have all this undergrad research and then haven't done any in med school but undergrad research definitely counts.

Thank you! Yeah I was planning on using my research experience to at least "get my foot in the door" for research after I start med school in the fall.

 

[Peach Newport]

You don't need 15-20 outcomes to match ENT. Don't get me wrong, there are applicants out there with that many but the majority do not. I know multiple ENT residents that had minimal research, although having high quality research is a big deal to a number of programs.

Have DOs matched with less? Sure, but with step 1 being pass/fail, I would say it’s a good bet that research will be given an extra premium... especially for a DO competing with top USMDs who’s pedigree alone will give them even more of an advantage.

 

[slowthai]

Have DOs matched with less? Sure, but with step 1 being pass/fail, I would say it’s a good bet that research will be given an extra premium... especially for a DO competing with top USMDs who’s pedigree alone will give them even more of an advantage.

I think the reference point is former AOA programs. But I definitely think as competition increases and the demand for evidence of research experience (because of ACGME requirements) increases, what you said will eventually become the norm.

 

[Preston Garvey]

Have DOs matched with less? Sure, but with step 1 being pass/fail, I would say it’s a good bet that research will be given an extra premium... especially for a DO competing with top USMDs who’s pedigree alone will give them even more of an advantage.

I will have to agree with you but only when you advice pertains to traditionally M.D ENT programs. When it comes to previously D.O programs its a different situation. With step 1 becoming pass fail I would guess that the emphasis at traditionally D.O programs would be put on step 2 since it will still be a 3 digit number. Also top M.D students are not auditioning at previously D.O programs. Honestly I haven't heard of any M.Ds whatsoever auditioning at previously D.O programs. All this to say the audition still remains the most important peice of the equation. Based on my experience as a med student and now as a resident in a previously D.O ENT program I would say the emphasis when it comes to evaluating students goes something like this. Audition>Scores>research>grades>everything else.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Have DOs matched with less? Sure, but with step 1 being pass/fail, I would say it’s a good bet that research will be given an extra premium... especially for a DO competing with top USMDs who’s pedigree alone will give them even more of an advantage.

edit: @Preston Garvey said it better

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Honestly I haven't heard of any M.Ds whatsoever auditioning at previously D.O programs.

To back this up I have a personal friend who is an MD ENT intern at an elite program. He straight up told me that the MD's joke about doing residency at a DO program and the applicants he knew that applied this year didn't even apply them, some of them apparently even saying they'd rather go unmatched and try again than match at a DO place lol (not what he personally thinks, but shows that the train of thought exists).

The same thing happens with MD's and ortho. The ortho reddit sheet is filled with examples of it

 

[Peach Newport]

To back this up I have a personal friend who is an MD ENT intern at an elite program. He straight up told me that the MD's joke about doing residency at a DO program and the applicants he knew that applied this year didn't even apply them, some of them apparently even saying they'd rather go unmatched and try again than match at a DO place lol (not what he personally thinks, but shows that the train of thought exists).

The same thing happens with MD's and ortho. The ortho reddit sheet is filled with examples of it

I don’t think this train of thought is as prevalent in the MD world. Maybe at the tippy top programs - a Stanford/Harvard/NYU senior might have his pick of the top programs, but Joe MD isn’t gonna be picky about where he matches a blisteringly competitive surgical subspecialty.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don’t think this train of thought is as prevalent in the MD world. Maybe at the tippy top programs - a Stanford/Harvard/NYU senior might have his pick of the top programs, but Joe MD isn’t gonna be picky about where he matches a blisteringly competitive surgical subspecialty.

My buddy went to a low ranked state school. It's more prevalent than you think. @Preston Garvey is an ENT resident and is saying he hasn't heard of an MD auditioning at a DO program, I am friends with the ENT intern and senior here, and neither of them have heard of it happening either. Everyone knows everyone in the DO ENT world so if MD's were auditioning and going for the DO spots it would be easy to find out and word would get around really fast.

The point is that for DO's going for former DO ENT programs they aren't really in competition with MD's with 15-20 pubs. Hell, the average matched MD to ENT only has 10ish total research outcomes.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

My buddy went to a low ranked state school. It's more prevalent than you think. @Preston Garvey is an ENT resident and is saying he hasn't heard of an MD auditioning at a DO program, I am friends with the ENT intern and senior here, and neither of them have heard of it happening either. Everyone knows everyone in the DO ENT world so if MD's were auditioning and going for the DO spots it would be easy to find out and word would get around really fast.

The point is that for DO's going for former DO ENT programs they aren't really in competition with MD's with 15-20 pubs. Hell, the average matched MD to ENT only has 10ish total research outcomes.

On my ENT rotation the recently graduated DO attending made it clear that because of the strong bias MD programs have against DO in ENT, that the former AOA program basically will not consider MDs and operate as if the AOA still exists, (I.e. expect auditions, good boards etc). He told me that they got some crazy apps, sounds like from foreign grads, but that they just wouldn’t consider them either.

If you want ENT as a DO I think you do aways at all the DO programs you can, and you ignore MD programs.

 

[Peach Newport]

My buddy went to a low ranked state school. It's more prevalent than you think. @Preston Garvey is an ENT resident and is saying he hasn't heard of an MD auditioning at a DO program, I am friends with the ENT intern and senior here, and neither of them have heard of it happening either. Everyone knows everyone in the DO ENT world so if MD's were auditioning and going for the DO spots it would be easy to find out and word would get around really fast.

The point is that for DO's going for former DO ENT programs they aren't really in competition with MD's with 15-20 pubs. Hell, the average matched MD to ENT only has 10ish total research outcomes.

I would think that’s because the idea of “audition rotations” is primarily a DO concept. MDs don’t do aways nearly as often as DOs, and when they do, they’re often not for the purpose of audition. Most MDs I’ve known don’t leave their home school 4th year.

 

[GP0618]

I appreciate all of the advice this thread has gathered. What would your comments be on extracurriculars? I know studying for boards and publishing are top priorities, but is it necessary to find a few extracurriculars to devote time towards?

 

[DNC127]

The person at our school who matched this year had good but not great board scores and double digit ENT interviews (meaning lots of non-rotator). How?

Pubs. They had 10+ pubs in good journals. Research is king for surgical subs we found this year.

 

[GP0618]

The person at our school who matched this year had good but not great board scores and double digit ENT interviews (meaning lots of non-rotator). How?

Pubs. They had 10+ pubs in good journals. Research is king for surgical subs we found this year.

This may be something I discover more when I start this fall, but how do I put myself in the best position to publish quality work? As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I’m hoping to have four publications by the time I start (more if I can make it happen). How do I continue this trend? I enjoy research so finding the motivation to produce won’t be a problem.

 

[slowthai]

This may be something I discover more when I start this fall, but how do I put myself in the best position to publish quality work? As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I’m hoping to have four publications by the time I start (more if I can make it happen). How do I continue this trend? I enjoy research so finding the motivation to produce won’t be a problem.

Get with someone that publishes a lot.

 

[DNC127]

This may be something I discover more when I start this fall, but how do I put myself in the best position to publish quality work? As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I’m hoping to have four publications by the time I start (more if I can make it happen). How do I continue this trend? I enjoy research so finding the motivation to produce won’t be a problem.

If you are going to the same school as Anatomy Grey just PM me. That’s my school we can get you in touch with the right people.

 

[GP0618]

If you are going to the same school as Anatomy Grey just PM me. That’s my school we can get you in touch with the right people.

Thank you!