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[appletree321]

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[PUSHtillSenil]

Failed just like you and don't know how it will affect my 2021 application

 

[JiPo]

Step is so long ago that your anesthesia exams (for written) and LOR (cs) should help overcome weak/failed usmle as long as you dont get screened out. When you get LOR, i would ask the faculty to specifically comment on your clinical skills and interaction with patients and colleagues.

As long as it is not cardiac or pain, I anticipate that it wont affect you too much.

 

[JiPo]

Hi... I am stupid and failed Step 2 CS. Luckily matched to a low-tier academic but worried about how it might impact my fellowship applications.

It is a stupid exam. Doesnt mean you are stupid. Dont be too hard on yourself and treat it as learning experience. Dwelling on it will only make it more difficult to move on. Good luck

 

[deleted697127]

I think this is equivalent to how much your SAT matters for getting into med school or your MCAT for residency. It’s irrelevant.

 

[JiPo]

I think this is equivalent to how much your SAT matters for getting into med school or your MCAT for residency. It’s irrelevant.

I wouldnt say it is completely irrelevant.
Every fellowship will ask for usmle, so they will at least see it. Minimal weight to none, highly likely. But they will still see.

This is different from mcat for residency or sat for med school, bc you dont submit those scores.

 

[deleted171991]

I wouldnt say it is completely irrelevant.
Every fellowship will ask for usmle, so they will at least see it. Minimal weight to none, highly likely. But they will still see.

This is different from mcat for residency or sat for med school, bc you dont submit those scores.

I would.

Step 2 CS with just one failure, especially if FMG, does not matter for fellowship (and beyond). That exam shouldn't even exist.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Hi... I am stupid and failed Step 2 CS. Luckily matched to a low-tier academic but worried about how it might impact my fellowship applications.

dont you know, step 2cs is just another money making bull**** exam from usmle

 

[JiPo]

I would.

Step 2 CS with just one failure, especially if FMG, does not matter for fellowship (and beyond). That exam shouldn't even exist.

I agree it is an useless exam. I am not arguing the utility of that exam. But if the program directors are left between two identical applicants, except one failed the CS on first attempt, who will get the interview? Again, it likely won't make any difference, but the fact that you have to submit the score means it is at program's disposal for review. I was simply pointing out that it is a requirement for applying to fellowship as opposed to SAT or MCAT score which nobody asks for when applying to medical school or residency, respectively.

Cardiac or Pain, which are always looking for ways to weed out applicants, MIGHT care just for the sake of narrowing applicants down, if at all. Other fellowships definitely won't.

 

[jakefromstatefarm]

Just matched pain at my #1 program in the most recent cycle and I failed step 2 CS my first time around, so I don’t think it makes much of a difference.

 

[deleted171991]

I agree it is an useless exam. I am not arguing the utility of that exam. But if the program directors are left between two identical applicants, except one failed the CS on first attempt, who will get the interview? Again, it likely won't make any difference, but the fact that you have to submit the score means it is at program's disposal for review. I was simply pointing out that it is a requirement for applying to fellowship as opposed to SAT or MCAT score which nobody asks for when applying to medical school or residency, respectively.

Cardiac or Pain, which are always looking for ways to weed out applicants, MIGHT care just for the sake of narrowing applicants down, if at all. Other fellowships definitely won't.

The difference won't be Step 2 CS. The difference will be scores on the ITEs and Step 2 CK, +/- Step 3 (if high).

 

[Lidolover]

I would add that even ITE scores do not matter as much even for the most competitive fellowships. I would focus on clinical excellence reflected on LORs, academic drive reflected on research and extracurricular activities, and networking (direct or indirect). Personally, never studied with the ITE mentality. I studied for myself and my patients. Studying 24/7 for a freaking ITE does not tell me anything about your clinical competence and decision-making capacity, neither about your skill set...

 

[BIGphysician]

I mean it’s not great but if you rebounded from it and everything else has normalized for the last few years you’re fine. One thing I learned in my career is that test and board scores really don’t mean anything. It’s all your personality. If people like you, none of those test scores matter.


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[dchz]

I would add that even ITE scores do not matter as much even for the most competitive fellowships. I would focus on clinical excellence reflected on LORs, academic drive reflected on research and extracurricular activities, and networking (direct or indirect). Personally, never studied with the ITE mentality. I studied for myself and my patients. Studying 24/7 for a freaking ITE does not tell me anything about your clinical competence and decision-making capacity, neither about your skill set...

How involved are you on the program side of the applications??

 

[JiPo]

I would add that even ITE scores do not matter as much even for the most competitive fellowships. I would focus on clinical excellence reflected on LORs, academic drive reflected on research and extracurricular activities, and networking (direct or indirect). Personally, never studied with the ITE mentality. I studied for myself and my patients. Studying 24/7 for a freaking ITE does not tell me anything about your clinical competence and decision-making capacity, neither about your skill set...

There are parts I agree and parts I disagree.

I totally agree that residents should study to become the best anesthesiologist they can be, not to do well on the exam. ITE score will follow if you study with this mindset. Also, strong ITE score does not say anything about clinical competence, but low ITE score certainly does. How can one be a competent clinician when you lack the foundation to apply in clinical situation? It is like saying someone is good at organic chemistry without knowing the basic reactions.

As for "the most competitive fellowships," they will absolutely care about your ITE score, at least for cardiac. They might not care 70th percentile vs 90th percentile, but if you are at 30th percentile, you can kiss the "most competitive programs" goodbye. One would be lucky to match cardiac with such ITE score.

Other things you mentioned, academic drive and networking are extremely important as well, but you first need to make it past the cut off before they even look at the rest of your CV/application.

This is based on what I learned going through the cycle this year.

 

[Lidolover]

Unfortunately, reality is here to disprove the mentality we have cultivated in our minds. I totally agree with the fact that someone can’t be decent clinically if lacks knowledge etc etc and I have been a strong advocate of scores as indicators. However, what I’m trying to say is that nobody got lost from a 30th percentile in the ITE. I have seen ppl matching into fellowships and doing just fine. I have seen ppl matching to top tier neurosurgery program after 2 step 2 cs failures and doing great. I have seen ppl matching to top tier surgery program with one number higher than failing score in both step 1 and 2 ck and they are up and running in major academic program as faculty. I have seen ppl with 265 score struggling big time. To me it means nothing. Having the knowledge and applying it clinically does not equal mastered skill in strategically answering ITE questions. And btw have you seen how many Correct answers distinguish a 95 from 75 percentile? 3-4 questions maybe. How many questions distinguish a 30 from 75 percentile? At most 7-10 out of 200? I don’t remember exactly how many but the point is the number is astonishingly small. What if you were on 24 hr call and you go straight to take the test?

Personally, I would trust more a physician who is well-rounded with a mediocre score rather than a NERD, socially and clinically awkward in the 99.99 percentile. That being said, We are all doing our best to be well rounded and at the same time at the highest possible percentile. #my2cent

 

[deleted171991]

Unfortunately, reality is here to disprove the mentality we have cultivated in our minds. I totally agree with the fact that someone can’t be decent clinically if lacks knowledge etc etc and I have been a strong advocate of scores as indicators. However, what I’m trying to say is that nobody got lost from a 30th percentile in the ITE. I have seen ppl matching into fellowships and doing just fine. I have seen ppl matching to top tier neurosurgery program after 2 step 2 cs failures and doing great. I have seen ppl matching to top tier surgery program with one number higher than failing score in both step 1 and 2 ck and they are up and running in major academic program as faculty. I have seen ppl with 265 score struggling big time. To me it means nothing. Having the knowledge and applying it clinically does not equal mastered skill in strategically answering ITE questions. And btw have you seen how many Correct answers distinguish a 95 from 75 percentile? 3-4 questions maybe. How many questions distinguish a 30 from 75 percentile? At most 7-10 out of 200? I don’t remember exactly how many but the point is the number is astonishingly small. What if you were on 24 hr call and you go straight to take the test?

Personally, I would trust more a physician who is well-rounded with a mediocre score rather than a NERD, socially and clinically awkward in the 99.99 percentile. That being said, We are all doing our best to be well rounded and at the same time at the highest possible percentile. #my2cent

The difference on a 200+ question-exam between the 30th and 75th percentile is in the order of about 1.5 SD (it's 2 SD between the 16th and 84th). For Step 2 CK, the SD is 16, so we are talking about 24 questions, not 7-10. For Step 1 the SD is 21, so we're talking about 30 questions, ballpark.

 

[BIGphysician]

The difference on a 200+ question-exam between the 30th and 75th percentile is in the order of about 1.5 SD (it's 2 SD between the 16th and 84th). For Step 2 CK, the SD is 16, so we are talking about 24 questions, not 7-10. For Step 1 the SD is 21, so we're talking about 30 questions, ballpark.

I’ve dominated a majority of every standardized exam since step 1 and it really was somewhat of a waste of time trying so hard. Focus on networking I’d say.


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[JiPo]

Unfortunately, reality is here to disprove the mentality we have cultivated in our minds. I totally agree with the fact that someone can’t be decent clinically if lacks knowledge etc etc and I have been a strong advocate of scores as indicators. However, what I’m trying to say is that nobody got lost from a 30th percentile in the ITE. I have seen ppl matching into fellowships and doing just fine. I have seen ppl matching to top tier neurosurgery program after 2 step 2 cs failures and doing great. I have seen ppl matching to top tier surgery program with one number higher than failing score in both step 1 and 2 ck and they are up and running in major academic program as faculty. I have seen ppl with 265 score struggling big time. To me it means nothing. Having the knowledge and applying it clinically does not equal mastered skill in strategically answering ITE questions. And btw have you seen how many Correct answers distinguish a 95 from 75 percentile? 3-4 questions maybe. How many questions distinguish a 30 from 75 percentile? At most 7-10 out of 200? I don’t remember exactly how many but the point is the number is astonishingly small. What if you were on 24 hr call and you go straight to take the test?

Personally, I would trust more a physician who is well-rounded with a mediocre score rather than a NERD, socially and clinically awkward in the 99.99 percentile. That being said, We are all doing our best to be well rounded and at the same time at the highest possible percentile. #my2cent

I was curious because I never really looked at it as difference in percentage correct on the test. So with the 2020 norm table, went from percentile -> scaled scored -> percentage correct. I used CA-1's scores since that is the score that fellowships care about the most, and just used the basic topics, since that is a more "fair" assessment of CA-1's knowledge. Anyways, it is pretty interesting.

Score of 41 was 89th percentile for CA-1's, and that was 81% correct on the exam, or 162q correct and 38q wrong.

Score of 38 was 77th percentile for CA-1's, and that was 77% correct on the exam, or 154q correct and 46q wrong.

Score of 31 was 33rd percentle for CA-1's, and that was slightly less than 66% (66% correct was actually 34th percentile), or 132q correct and 68q wrong.

So the difference between 77th and 89th percentile is small. Only 8 questions out of 200. But the difference between 34th percentile and 77th percentile was 22 questions out of 200. On test like ITE where there are a lot of gimme questions, that is a huge difference. I will admit that the difference was a bit smaller than I had thought, but definitely more than the numbers you quoted.

And I agree with you that being a well rounded physician is very important, having the strong foundation, also included.

 

[Lidolover]

... you get my point though haha