Hey guys! So I'm applying to PsyD programs fresh out of undergrad, and I've been having trouble getting accepted, despite the fact that my application is pretty much iron clad. I have a pretty good shot at HPU's PsyD program, but my main concern is that they aren't quite accredited yet. The program is super new, and the APA is coming for a visit next month, and they may be accredited on a contingency basis. In the case that I receive admission and they receive accreditation, is it too risky to attend this program? Alternatively, if they aren't able to secure full accreditation by the time I graduate, what will my degree count as? While I understand that new programs can struggle with these things, I am really apprehensive as this program does cost a pretty penny, and I don't know if I should put this much money and time into something that might be worthless in five years. Any guidance is much appreciated.
HPU PsyD
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What does HPU stand for?
It stands for Hawaii Pacific University
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What are your stats and qualifications? You mention perceiving your app as strong. If it is quite strong, you might take a gap year and reapply. More details would help.
So, as of right now, I’m just finishing up my undergrad with a gpa of 3.1 (ik this could def be a bit stronger). I have a pretty strong background in two different jobs at my school, one in teaching and one in mentoring stem students from underrepresented backgrounds; I’ve done both for 2+ years. I also did clinical work as a mentor/point of contact for a refugee from Afghanistan who had PTSD for 2 years (I worked with faculty members within my university). I also did some work as a research assistant. I also was the undergrad sole member on my colleges dei committee, and I helped increase retention rates by establishing and working in a program that aimed at supporting first gen stem students from underrepresented backgrounds (I’ve been a part of this for 2.5 years).
I also had four rec letters, two from my work managers who were also my professors, one from the assistant dean of my college, and one from the dean of my college. I don’t really know if all of this makes for a strong resume necessarily, but from what I have heard from other students applying to similar programs, I seem to have a strong application. My main concern right now is that if I wait for the next cycle, my rec letters won’t be valid anymore, and idk if my application will be as strong without the deans’ letters.
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I'm going to be blunt, it's your GPA. You might consider ways to ameliorate that part of your app (although that will likely take more time, but would be well worth it).
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What’s the structure of the 3.1? Did you have a bad first year and your last year is all As, of have you had a bunch of Bs throughout?
Does the letter from the dean speak to actual experience in working w you on something? Letters are impressive if they are specific and detailed with respect to direct work w you. That the letter is from the dean isn’t really important.
Are those mentorship and committee things things that are important to the program you’re applying to in some way?
Does the letter from the dean speak to actual experience in working w you on something? Letters are impressive if they are specific and detailed with respect to direct work w you. That the letter is from the dean isn’t really important.
Are those mentorship and committee things things that are important to the program you’re applying to in some way?
So I was premed for the first two years and honestly tanked pretty hard. I switched to psych full time my junior year, and pulled mostly B+/A’s after the fact. The deans letter, to my knowledge, is pretty detailed. Also I was under the impression that I just needed to demonstrate cultural competency in an applied setting, and those experiences achieved that. At this point, I’m considering taking a year to work and build a resume that demonstrates real world experience in some way but I don’t know if that’s enough.
I’m aware of the gpa situation, but felt as though if there was enough on my resume, it could almost distract from the gpa? I know that sounds dumb, but that was just what I had been led to believe. I def considered getting my masters, but I really don’t know if that much debt is going to be worth it. I feel as though I’d likely do one or the other, either doing my psyd or a masters in a related discipline, as doing both would take like 8 years and cost well north of an additional 200k. If you have any other suggestions, I would be more than open to hearing about them.
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Another, much cheaper suggestion would be to complete a thesis-based master's program (with as close to a 4.0 GPA as possible) so that you can get more research experience and demonstrate that you can do graduate-level coursework, and then apply to funded doctoral programs.
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Tbh most “clinical” experience for undergrads isn’t a huge asset. Almost everyone has some, and the kind you get as an undergrad is v different from what you do in grad school. It can be better if it’s w a specific population that you’re also interested in working with (which it sounds like maybe yours is?).
Committee work would not really be a huge asset to most apps, tbh, unless it’s super close to what the grad program emphasizes.
Who is reading your materials? Between your impression that your app is “ironclad” and that the rest of the app would “distract” from the gpa, to me it sounds like you are not getting good advice.
Honestly I’m probably not. I’ve mainly been working with my university counselor, since I didn’t know which other credible resources were even available up until now. I’ve also worked with guidance counselors from the programs I’ve applied to, in addition to just comparing my resume to others, in order to see who’s doing better, if that makes sense. One of the profs who conducted one of my interviews claimed that clinical experience was the absolute most important thing I could have, so I felt the need to further highlight that, but I honestly don’t know anymore. I’m very lost.
That doesn’t sound like a bad option but I’m not sure if that much grad school makes sense. Like that would add a solid three years, and I feel like I’d just get so burned out from a combined 8-9 years of grad school. Also, from my understanding, it’s mostly phd programs that are funded, and I’m aiming for a psyd, which might make the situation a bit trickier. I don’t love research a whole lot, and a psyd seems more clinical less research if that makes sense.
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This is what I thought. I’m guessing your counselor is much more familiar w higher ed admin programs. Which, actually, I do think you have a v strong app for. But they seem inadequately familiar w psych to give you good advice.
Do you have psych profs you can ask for guidance?
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It does not make sense. Legitimate PsyDs will have similar research expectations to balanced and clinically focused PhDs. But yeah, your very low GPA and lack of meaningful research experience are tanking your apps at legitimate programs.
I mean, not really. I do have a psychologist who’s been relatively helpful, but idk if it’d be appropriate to ask her for solid career advice. Her general rec on the basis of my situation, I should take a year to work and add meaningful life experience. She said I should apply to behavioral health positions and take a year to work in like an inpatient clinic. I’m considering doing something like that (or potentially working in HR?), and applying to both psyd and masters in io psych programs after a year. I just don’t know if after doing that it’d better my chances of getting into a psyd program
I understand where you’re coming from. So what would you recommend I do now? Quite literally I have no idea of what the next steps would be. My own psychologist suggested that I take a year to build professional experience, like either working in an inpatient facility or in HR, as a means to demonstrate that I can work outside of undergrad. I do wish to pursue this degree, but have apprehensions about getting my masters. What would you suggest?
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What do you want to do for a job after finishing?
The goal is to work as a clinical psychologist. While something like an MSW would achieve similar things, I do really want to get my doctorate. I understand that this is a pretty lofty goal, but ultimately I want to work in like a therapy setting as a psychologist.
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How do you see being a clinical psychologist in a therapy setting as different from a masters level provider?
I feel like a doctorate would just give me a more comprehensive training. Also the salary difference seems way different, and I’m trying to make a bit more than a masters level would let me
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As for next steps, if you want a legitimate doctoral degree, a research oriented masters to both demonstrate that you can deal with coursework and maintain a high GPA and get the research experience. Otherwise, I'd suggest the SW route, the level of training there would be equivalent to or better than most diploma mills.
This honestly doesn’t sound too bad. So should I rule out HPU altogether? Would it be too risky to attend a university that is accredited on a contingency?
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I'd be very wary due to the issue that they are not even accredited on contingency yet. They are attached to a university, and not free standing, so that's a plus. The 170k+ estimated cost for the program, not including room and board is ludicrous. Definitely wouldn't be on my list, but to each their own.
In the case that they get accredited on a contingency, is it less risky? The price isn’t as big of a concern imo, since a lot of these programs are expensive, I’m just concerned that I’ll go through the program and then not end up with a degree that’s worth much. I’m worried about licensing issues and just not having a degree that is from an accredited university.
A large part of that more comprehensive training as a doctoral level provider is the research component. What really sets a psychologist apart from a mid-level therapist is the understanding of statistics and research, and its application to treatment (this is why many more mid-levels and diploma mill PsyDs succumb to flashy but not-evidence-based modalities like IFS and neurofeedback and EMDR). The best way to be able to competently digest research on new treatments and the like is to be able to understand the mechanics of research by doing it yourself. Even PsyD programs (should) require an independent dissertation. If they don’t, you’re honestly very likely not getting anymore comprehensive training than you would from a license-eligible masters program. And the cost of HPU (170k?!!!!!) is likely going to make the salary difference a moot point based on the excessive amount of loans you’d need to take (unless you’re independently wealthy, which begs the question if that is the best use of those resources anyway). The expensive programs quite honestly make no sense when the majority of clinical psych doctorates pay you to attend. It’s very much one of those situations where more expensive does not equal better quality. In fact, in some cases, it’s actually the opposite.
In regards to accreditation, if a program is accredited on contingency when you graduate, you have graduated from an accredited program. However, if a program is granted contingency status, they must meet full criteria prior to a certain deadline or they lose accreditation entirely and need to start the process over, so there is still a risk in attending a program in contingent status. I’m a bit more risk adverse, so given the extremely high cost of the program (and high cost of living in its location), I’d be really hesitant to take that big of a gamble on a program that is still figuring itself out and experiencing growing pains. There’s no track record of internship match rates and EPPP pass rates, so you may spend $170k+ for a program and not be able to graduate because your program did a poor job setting you up for match to an accredited internship, or you can’t get licensed because you can’t pass the licensing exam.
I totally get where you’re coming from. Since the deadline for a lot of these programs has passed, would it be a good idea to take a gap year and work? My therapist recommended that I work as an ABA therapist for a year, and I’m considering it. Would that strengthen my resume for psyd programs? Or would a masters still be a better bet? I also considered taking the GRE, and ensuring that the score was relatively high; would that sort of add a layer of nuance to the gpa situation? I really appreciate your guys’ input on this, since I don’t have a lot of credible sources when it comes to figuring out what to do next.
Taking a year or two before applying again is a good idea, but I would focus on getting more research experience. That will make you a much more competitive applicant than a year of ABA therapy, which…is also its own field. I don’t know when your therapist went to school, but it doesn’t sound like they are giving you the best advice related to grad school applications. If you look at the “not all unfunded PsyDs…” thread, the OP there ran into an issue where, even for PsyDs, they were unsuccessful due to limited research. I went to a PsyD university-based PsyD with small cohorts and decent funding, and everyone in my cohort had several years of research experience prior to entering.
Regarding the GRE, it depends on the program. Some may consider it, but others are still not accepting it and will not look at those scores.
It’s great that you’re asking questions on this forum. Another great resource is Mitch Prinstein’s Guide, which can be found online for free. There is also a book which lists all the different PhD and PsyD programs called The Insider’s Guide, which you can buy online. It provides information on how research heavy they are. I would start by looking at those resources. There are a handful of PsyDs that provide funding. Spending med school amounts of debt for a PsyD really isn’t financially sound, as we do not make nearly as much as MDs/DOs. If you look at insurance billing rates, there’s a bit of a bump for a psychologist vs a mid-level, but it isn’t much (especially not if you’re in that much debt to get the degree and have also spent more time in school not earning that income). With cash pay, you can charge whatever you want, as long as people will pay. The doctorate after your name won’t really be what allows you to successfully charge a higher price. Plenty of LPCs and LCSWs charge rates similar to psychologists, some even more. Your business acumen and local market rates will have more impact than the initials behind your name. I’m just a postdoc, but based on my experience, most people have no idea what the difference is between a counselor, a social worker, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist.
Regarding the GRE, it depends on the program. Some may consider it, but others are still not accepting it and will not look at those scores.
It’s great that you’re asking questions on this forum. Another great resource is Mitch Prinstein’s Guide, which can be found online for free. There is also a book which lists all the different PhD and PsyD programs called The Insider’s Guide, which you can buy online. It provides information on how research heavy they are. I would start by looking at those resources. There are a handful of PsyDs that provide funding. Spending med school amounts of debt for a PsyD really isn’t financially sound, as we do not make nearly as much as MDs/DOs. If you look at insurance billing rates, there’s a bit of a bump for a psychologist vs a mid-level, but it isn’t much (especially not if you’re in that much debt to get the degree and have also spent more time in school not earning that income). With cash pay, you can charge whatever you want, as long as people will pay. The doctorate after your name won’t really be what allows you to successfully charge a higher price. Plenty of LPCs and LCSWs charge rates similar to psychologists, some even more. Your business acumen and local market rates will have more impact than the initials behind your name. I’m just a postdoc, but based on my experience, most people have no idea what the difference is between a counselor, a social worker, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist.
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200k+ isn't a concern? Unless you're independently wealth and don't mind bad ROIs, it should. I know many people who feel stuck in jobs they hate because they rely on loan repayment programs. I'd rather have the freedom to do whatever I want with my career. Similar to @PsyDuck90 , my advice, if you are dead set on a doctoral degree and not a midlevel degree to solely do therapy, would be to get a masters with relevant research experience and re-apply to funded programs.
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I think you've gotten a lot of good advice on what to do to pursue a doctorate. PsyD applications can be harder to gauge than traditional funded PhD/PsyDs since there is a lot more variability in program quality, especially with for profit PsyDs that are motivated to accept as many students as possible.
But beyond competitiveness, it probably wouldn't hurt to get some additional life experience like doing ABA therapy, which should help you figure out if being in a full-time clinical career is a good fit or something that is might be better in theory than practice (and there's nothing wrong if that's the case).
A lot of clinicians don't go directly from undergrad to grad school. I had a 5 year gap between finishing undergrad to starting grad school and that was really beneficial for my own maturity/growth and figuring out what I might need to be satisfied in a future career, which is especially crucial if it will come with a massive debt load most PsyD paths. Good luck!
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This is an industry myth that some of the more predatory PsyD programs like to parrot as a marketing tactic. PsD is same clinical, less research (with some very few exceptions). This often equates to worse overall training and a less solid grasp on how to critically engage with research findings. As an example, I've seen PsyD programs requiring as little as one statistical methods course. In contrast, I have to take four. I genuinely don't know how someone can exit a program with a single stats requirement and actually have a good grasp on quantitative methods. This is particularly concerning given that quantitative methods drive the overwhelming majority of clinical research and doctoral psychologists are supposed to be competent at evaluating that research.
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Keep in mind that this is just the principal price tag on just the program. You will need money to eat and pay bills, which likely adds to the amount of loans you'd require. Then consider that students loans are generally laden with relatively high interest, and you're looking at what is realistically over $300k to pay back. And that's under the system as reformed by Biden-Harris, which did a lot to ease the burden of interest. Given the current Angry Orange who's in office, I wouldn't count on the system continuing to work as "well" (I use that word gingerly) as it currently does.
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I'd argue that your opinion on this matter is probably not very well informed. Let's do some back of the envelope math here, comparing a PsyD at HPU vs. a MSW from U Hawaii Manoa.
Basic Facts/Assumptions:
Program Costs-
-HPU tuition 170k. If you need to finance half of this (i.e. student loans) at 6.8% with a 10 year payback, you'd end up paying 202K total for the tuition. This would mean monthly payment of ~$1000 for ten years, and that right there should be a conversation stopper. I've been doing this awhile and make a decent salary, but would struggle to pay 1k per month in student loans. If you have to finance more than 1/2 of the 170k tuition, just don't- It's very unlikely to be worth it and you will be struggling to make that payment every month until you are old and bitter like me!
-MSW at UH would cost ~32k in tuition and fees for a Hawaii resident. If you aren't a resident, you could find a similar program where you live for the same costs. You could probably find something even cheaper. My daughter is currently doing her MSW, and tuition is less than that, plus our state- Mass.- gives grants to people earning degrees in high need fields such as social work or nursing. These grants cover most of tuition and fees.
-Just based on direct program costs, the HPU PSYD would cost you 170k more
Opportunity Costs-
-Assuming each program is full time and you couldn't also work for any meaningful income, the PsyD program would involve 3 more years during which you couldn't earn. If we assume with your BA you could get a full time job at $20, thats gross 41k per year. using that figure, the Psyd would cost an additional 123K in lost wages/salary. This number is somewhat conservative in that (a) many MSW programs are meant for working people (e.g., evening classes) and students can often get some wages- and supervision for licensure- with a day job. Also- if you started the MSW program at the same time you would start the PsyD, the extra years you could earn would likely be AFTER you got the degree and at a higher pay rate that the $20 per hour. On the other hand, you might be able to make a few bucks from practica/internship stipend during the PsyD. Still- let's use the 123K as a reasonable estimation.
So, the PsyD. program would cost you $293,000 more in total costs if you have to finance half of the direct program costs.
Earning Potential-
-This can be tricky to determine. From what I can find online median salary difference between Licensed Clinical Psychologist and Licensed Social worker in general is around 30K (i.e., psychologist make about 30k more per year than a social worker). Looking at job listings for entry level clinicians doing therapy, the difference is much less (Insurance reimbursement between MA a Doctoral level therapists will not cover that 30K difference). With all that in mind, let's say the annual difference in earning potential between doctoral and masters level therapists in 20k per year (it always makes sense to assume the worst when doing these types of financial planning exercises). If we divide the 293K cost difference by 20K difference in earning potential, you'd have to work almost 15 years as a doctoral level clinician before you'd realize any of the differences in earning potential. Assuming your of typical undergrad age, you'll be in your forties before you realize any of the increase earning potential.
Also- remember that this also is based on you financing 1/2 of the costs of the PsyD and noe of the MSW, meaning that you'd have monthly student loan payments of $1000 for a 10 year payback. You could do a 20 year payback and only have $650 monthly payments (still really sucks and will get in the way of you having nice things like fancy cars, houses, vacations, and retirement savings), but then you'd need to add another 38K in program costs to cover the extra interest. Well, what about those loan repayment/cancellation programs I've heard about? They do currently exist, but have you been watching the news lately??? Also, they tend to require working in underserved populations or for non-profits (which I believe you should do for part of your career at least), but those jobs will also tend to pay on the lower side of the median.
So, in summary, the financial benefits of the HPU PsyD vs. an MSW from any old State U. are both not as big as you think and won't be noticeable for a very long time if your goal is to be a therapist. If you have to finance more than half of the PsyD costs, then it's really not a good deal.
So, why would anyone want to be a clinical psychologist? In my case, I like what I do, my schedule and what I do is very flexible, I get to do a lot of things (assessment, treatment, consultation, admin and clinical supervision, teaching), and I get paid nicely to do so. It's a great career path as long as you don't have to pay 300K more total (and 700-1000k per month) to do it. I run in clinical circles professionally and socially, and have many friends and colleagues with MA level clinical degrees/licenses (LiCSW; BCBA) who also like their jobs, have nice stuff, and go nice places.
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OP, in addition, have you ever lived in Hawaii? It’s more akin to living in an English-speaking foreign country, than another state in a lot of ways and many, many people leave after a year or so because it is a very different (and often very challenging) place to live.
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If you are relocating to Hawaii for this, you'd need to take that additional cost into account. It all adds up pretty quickly.
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I'd also add that those student loan payments don't care where you live. "Losing" $1000 per month will have a much greater impact in higher cost of living areas (and Hawaii is the highest COL state in (what for the time being is still) the union. You'd also need to figure out the 5 year cost difference between where you currently live and Hawaii (which is almost certainly more expensive), and add that to overall program costs vs. staying where you are an getting the MSW. The more you take it all into consideration, the more attending a very expensive, non-accredited doctoral clinical psych program in Hawaii with the end goal of being a psychotherapist (hopefully) seems like a relatively bad idea.
