Hypothetical Question

[Noyac]

lets say you have a pretty good job. Good pay, good benefits, good partners, good staff and a lot of time off. How would you feel about this information being shared with others? Mostly your pay and time off.

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[jthedestroyr]

I don't think it's anybody's business what my pay and time off is. I'd be pretty annoyed.

 

[deleted171991]

lets say you have a pretty good job. Good pay, good benefits, good partners, good staff and a lot of time off. How would you feel about this information being shared with others? Mostly your pay and time off.

I tend to share them with my anesthesiologist colleagues at work, and I would even welcome an open salary policy in my place of work. I think many employees get disgruntled when they feel unjustly underpaid/overworked relatively to their coworkers.

I would probably jump at working in any place that has such a policy. It speaks volumes about the owners'/managers' mindset.

 

[Direct Laryngoscopy]

I would prefer those details not disclosed, but unfortunately for some academic physicians (especially those who are state employed), these details are readily available on the interwebs

 

[MikeMerk-MtS]

Knowing others' salaries and time off only creates an environment of comparing and jealousy, I don't see any good reason to make it public knowledge.

 

[sevoflurane]

Unless it's shared by me personally, I wouldn't like it.

 

[deleted171991]

Knowing others' salaries and time off only creates an environment of comparing and jealousy

Only when unfair. 😉

 

[epidural man]

Perhaps sharing this information would help others. There are a lot of businesses and crooks out there that think it is okay to ride hard on the backs of newcomers, etc.

Full disclosure would help the business perhaps?

 

[dhb]

What others do you mean? Other MD, ancillary staff? general public?

 

[epidural man]

Other anesthesiologists. For example, I know that cooperations are moving in - getting bids, the raping the anesthesiologists. There are other groups that ride on the units created by the new comers - and they do this for years and justify it by saying that if the newbies make partners, they can similarly RAPE the youngins so the new comers should shut up.

Well, perhaps if it was known that other groups don't do this - with still great pay - then perhaps it would make it more difficult for the rapers to compete and perhaps adjust their malignant ways.

 

[sleepallday]

i don't have a problem with it. And usually share this info with anesthesiologists from other groups for reasons epidural man said above. Our group has open books and everybody knows what others make. This provides a level of trust that there is nothing shady happening. I couldn't see a private group run any other way.

 

[Noyac]

It amazes me that people expect to reap the benefits of others hard work.

Just because you finished medical school. A residency and possibly a fellowship doesn't make you anyone's equal.

Do your time. We all did. We all paid our price. It sucks, I understand but nobody truly knows your skills or intent until you have been a member of the "group" for some time.

If you think you are "all that" then fine, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

I have busted my ass for 15 yrs now establishing a stable high quality group. If you think you can come in on day one and be considered equal then you need to look elsewhere. With that being said, if "I" choose you to join my group then you will be paid equally and have equal time off and equal benefits from day one. Not many groups offer that!!!

You will however, still need to prove yourself.

I will not risk my 15 yrs of hard work on you

Now this was a side note.

More to the point of this thread:

As a matter of common courtesy to your partners. Do not discuss your contract or work arrangements with other members of the medical community (spouses included) other than your direct partners.

 

[urge]

As a matter of common courtesy to your partners. Do not discuss your contract or work arrangements with other members of the medical community (spouses included) other than your direct partners.

Wouldn't that keep salaries artificially low?

Similar to selling/buying a house with no comps.

I think salary should be fully disclosed to any person applying for the job. Especially for partnership track since you are "buying" into the business.

 

[urge]

It amazes me that people expect to reap the benefits of others hard work.

Just because you finished medical school. A residency and possibly a fellowship doesn't make you anyone's equal.

Do your time. We all did. We all paid our price. It sucks, I understand but nobody truly knows your skills or intent until you have been a member of the "group" for some time.

If you think you are "all that" then fine, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

I have busted my ass for 15 yrs now establishing a stable high quality group. If you think you can come in on day one and be considered equal then you need to look elsewhere. With that being said, if "I" choose you to join my group then you will be paid equally and have equal time off and equal benefits from day one. Not many groups offer that!!!

You will however, still need to prove yourself.

I will not risk my 15 yrs of hard work on you

Now this was a side note.

More to the point of this thread:

What prompted this rant?

 

[IlDestriero]

I would think your spouse knows what your income and time off are.
As for the other stuff, we have a confidentiality clause in our contract prohibiting disclosing our income to others. However, I'm comfortable giving ballpark figures. Anyone interviewing here gets a starting offer and a ballpark for the future income. It only specifies income, so the rest is fair game.
One job I interviewed for insisted that I didn't share the partner income with anyone before telling me, they made significantly more than the non partner track people for pretty equal work. I'm sure if the non partner folks knew, there would be blood.
And by significantly, I mean about 200k.

 

[deleted171991]

What prompted this rant?

Dr. Partner must have had a recent grad who had the nerve of asking for equal pay for equal work before 15 years have passed. 😛

In my experience, if a group is not open to discussing salaries (among themselves), there is probably an unfair payscale involved.

If the scale is fair, I personally don't see why it's not public inside the group. If I am an employee, I want to know that I am paid fairly relatively to the rest of employees. If I am a partner, the same relatively to the other partners. Also, in a profession where the main financial risk is not starting a business, but (mal)practicing it, I don't see why a partner should make $200K more for the same work.

I understand and subscribe to the need for non-disclosure outside of the group, but inside there is no excuse IMO, except for greedy owners. But I have a pretty strong sense of fairness (don't do unto others what you wouldn't want done unto you), I am not a business person or an arse. I am not saying that the payscale should not involve some kind of bonus based on the years with the group, or difficulty of cases, or partnership, or other objective measures etc.

 

[deleted171991]

One job I interviewed for insisted that I didn't share the partner income with anyone before telling me, they made significantly more than the non partner track people for pretty equal work. I'm sure if the non partner folks knew, there would be blood.
And by significantly, I mean about 200k.

I think that the non-partners did know what was going on. They just were non-partners for a reason: either they were hoping to become partners in a few years, and screw others the same way, or they had no choice, because they were on a mommy-track, or they were not that good professionally etc. I am sure the best of them were either made partners or moved on in a couple of years.

High employee turnover is also a good sign that people are lied to, even by omission, during the interview process, or that there is a good amount of unfairness involved. (I know a group where the two partners make big numbers while the 8-10 employees make 250 FTE, with no partnership track and crappy benefits. They have a permanent ad on gaswork - that's another bad sign for a group. Every year, some suckers get fed up and leave, and new ones are hired.)

Also, from my own experience as an employee: if you want a pay raise, the best way is to just find another job. Don't just "be ready to walk", but walk.

 

[Noyac]

No no. Sorry but some of you are miss u standing my post. I'm not talking about discussing salary among your partners. In my group, everyone is paid equally. Time off is equal. Everything is equal.

What I'm saying is don't go discussing your group particulars with other members of the medical community Ie: surgeons and their spouses. It only breeds jealousy and draws unneeded attention.

 

[Noyac]

What prompted this rant?

It was just a Rant like you stated.
It was in response to the comment about "Raping" the youngins.
My group pays equal across the board.
But I also understand staggered pay depending on how a group is set up.

 

[deleted50478]

It was just a Rant like you stated.
It was in response to the comment about "Raping" the youngins.
My group pays equal across the board.
But I also understand staggered pay depending on how a group is set up.

How many years before staggered pay becomes rape?

 

[epidural man]

It was just a Rant like you stated.
It was in response to the comment about "Raping" the youngins.
My group pays equal across the board.
But I also understand staggered pay depending on how a group is set up.

Noyac -

I agree, staggering pay - working longer at a firm = more pay. That seems fair.

What has never seemed fair to me however is the practice of a "Buy in". There are many many stories how this is extremely unfair and does indeed RAPE the newbies.

My point is - full disclosure helps. If some choose to work in that situation - it should be their choice. Or - they can choose to work at a place that is eat what you kill or a different pay structure. Hopefully, that helps match the skill and self worth for the best employer.

I do like that there be a time in company factor applied to the units.

If you think it is good practice to ride on the backs of newbies just because you had to - that's cool. A lot of people think that getting paid depending on your work is more fair....two sides I guess.

 

[Noyac]

How many years before staggered pay becomes rape?

That depends. But anything over 3 yrs is a bit excessive.

 

[Noyac]

Noyac -

I agree, staggering pay - working longer at a firm = more pay. That seems fair.

What has never seemed fair to me however is the practice of a "Buy in". There are many many stories how this is extremely unfair and does indeed RAPE the newbies.

My point is - full disclosure helps. If some choose to work in that situation - it should be their choice. Or - they can choose to work at a place that is eat what you kill or a different pay structure. Hopefully, that helps match the skill and self worth for the best employer.

I do like that there be a time in company factor applied to the units.

If you think it is good practice to ride on the backs of newbies just because you had to - that's cool. A lot of people think that getting paid depending on your work is more fair....two sides I guess.

Full disclosure is a must. Any group that doesn't disclose pay etc probably shouldn't be trusted.
I look at it more like the newbies ride on the backs of the vets just as much.
But that isn't the point.
If a private group has been around for many years, they have established a rapport and have secured the business of surgeons and hospitals over this time. This is not an easy task. Therefore, there is some "buy-in" that may be reasonable.

 

[sevoflurane]

I would say anything over 2 years is excessive. I personally wouldn't consider a group that had a 3 year buy in... unless they are >90% MGMA in a desirable area (>650k with 12 weeks). Even then, you need to ask how many have made full partner. 2 years is a long time. 3 years seems like an eternity. Heck... I know of groups in Phoenix that don't even offer partnership tracks anymore.
If they show you median numbers with regard to workload/vacation and income and desire 3 years well... it does speak volumes of the mentality of the group. Furthermore, it exposes the junior member to a lot of time where an AMC can bid for a contract or try to buy out the group... and then you are left with nothing while full partners walk away with fat pockets.

If you are signing up for 3 years or more... be very careful.

 

[Noyac]

Times were different when I came out of training and I signed up for 3 yrs. It was a >90% MGMA group but I didn't last the 3 yrs. I left for greener pasteurs. 3 yrs is a long time.

However, if I had made it to partner I would have had a much more difficult time leaving and ultimately I am now infinitely more happy with my position. The job wasn't the issue. It was the location.

So I guess there can be good things about a 3 yr track. It just depends on how you look at it.