Hyprocritical?

Med School Insiders
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
C

Cerbernator

Retired
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
0
Members do not see this ad.
paraphrased from the MSAR:

"data pertaining to race, sex, and religion is collected soley for statistical purposes. Selection of applicants will be made without regard to race, religion, sex, or creed."

down half a page under "Minority Student Information"

"XXXXXX values having a diverse class that represents the ethnic makeup of America as such we actively recruit minority students"

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Isn't diversity that old wooden ship from the civil war? :laugh:

Another reason while this whole process is a joke
 
What are you nagging about now? 🙄
 
ZOT! ZOT! said:
What are you nagging about now? 🙄
Click to expand...

lets play a game....


blow.jpg


MY



pen.jpg
IS
 
:laugh: :laugh:

I love the IS in the seperate post...
 
adamj61 said:
Isn't diversity that old wooden ship from the civil war? :laugh:

Another reason while this whole process is a joke
Click to expand...

why yes, it is
 
Cerbernator said:
"data pertaining to race, sex, and religion is collected soley for statistical purposes. Selection of applicants will be made without regard to race, religion, sex, or creed."
Click to expand...

It's not hypocritical-- it is an outright lie. I guess the argument is that this statement means you are not discriminated against based on race, sex, and religion. It is intellectually dishonest to argue that there are not at least a few white/Asian applicants with just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats who are not getting admitted to free up slots for diversity purposes. I guess the argument would be that the number of such slots is so small at 5% or so of the admitted pool that it does not amount to discrimination.
 
WatchingWaiting said:
It is intellectually dishonest to argue that there are not at least a few white/Asian applicants with just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats who are not getting admitted to free up slots for diversity purposes. I guess the argument would be that the number of such slots is so small at 5% or so of the admitted pool that it does not amount to discrimination.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I missed something but can you tell me where it says or is implied that the people they are seeking for diversity purposes are "just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats." As a matter of fact just tell me the page number in the MSAR so I can see it for myself. I guess diversity is not so important to you but apparently it is to the adcoms who obviously see the value of having a diverse student body. It's better for their medical school and its better for our society. Having a diverse class is more important than admitting "white/Asian applicants with just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats." Has it ever occured to you that the med schools really want more minority students? That maybe they no longer value producing classes composed of mainly whites and asians?
 
WatchingWaiting said:
It's not hypocritical-- it is an outright lie. I guess the argument is that this statement means you are not discriminated against based on race, sex, and religion. It is intellectually dishonest to argue that there are not at least a few white/Asian applicants with just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats who are not getting admitted to free up slots for diversity purposes. I guess the argument would be that the number of such slots is so small at 5% or so of the admitted pool that it does not amount to discrimination.
Click to expand...


I agree. This is one of those moments when I wish this forum had one of those cool little smilies that pulls out a little flag from behind it's back that reads "BS". It's really cute.
But, many will argue that there is no discrimination occuring -that is, whites/asians arent being docked points for their race, but rather URMs are being recognized for overcoming life challenges that URMs inherently face. It's not a line of reasoning I buy, but I know that there is nothing I can do about it at this point in my life.
I think the really hypocritical thing that occurs with AA is that many supporters will acknowledge that AA discriminates, but it does so to decrease racial discrimination in the future. I've always felt that the best way to achieve a colorblind society is to place less emphasis on racial differences, especially through programs that award benefits to citizens based solely on their race or creed.
 
Why not just let the best applicants in? Regardless of race. Anything else is DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!!! Plain and simple


Fight discrimination ? end affirmative action
 
AA based on socioeconomic, rather than racial, factors....argument over
 
Hhaahahahhahahahahaah, you wish. It's based on whatever criteria the medical school uses to judges its diversity, RACE. When medical schools publish statistics on the annual income levels of applicants it admits as a measure of diversity, you can expect some socioeconomic AA.
 
yeah that's what i mean...maybe i should have phrased that better, I always get into trouble when I post in incomplete sentences out of laziness.

I WISH, AA were based on socioeconomic, rather than racial, factors
 
regardless of whether AA is a legitimate way of societal correction, the fact is that to say you do not discriminate based on race and follow it up by saying you disriminate by race is kinda ironic. Its like stating, I do NOT like ice cream - but I am actively seeking an ice cream parlor and yummy delicious ice cream (ok bad analogy but i just watched that south park "now thats what I call a sticky situation").
 
Why is this hackneyed AA theme consistently recycled .....?Better yet,WHY am I replying to this topic? It is ridiculous for the original poster to second guess " diversity " of a medical school class based on ANY criteria , not just race. For as I have read in various posts authored by you , you have labeled yourself as an " average " candidate ( I am paraphrasing..this might not have been your actual description ) As some members of this message board might have you believe , no one with a sub-30 MCAT ( and that is being generous, at best ) and 3.8 GPA should be allowed to become a physician....do you fit this criteria ? If not, do you feel that you are less worthy to pursue a professional goal of yours , despite the fact that you in high likelihood will achieve success as a medical student ? Yeah, I didnt think so. These so called criteria that people, who have yet to matriculate into a medical school class might I add, claim are the great equalizer in admissions, are no guarantee of how well you will perform once in school. Factor in tenacity, work ethic , and endurance....then you get a little closer to what it REALLY takes to get through medical school. Diversity comes in many forms, not just the racial aspect, which seems to be the scapegoat more often than not. Without it, classes would consist solely of the 4.0/38 composite types, and that just is not the case. You work hard to achieve your goals, just like others who are of like mind in pursuing an MD. Who are you to judge what anyone brings to a medical school class? PLUS, it is not like " URMs" are the overwhelming majority in US medical schools...so who is REALLY taking " your" spot , hmmmmm? Place the blame on the sheer numbers of people who apply to medical school, blame admissions staff, blame the economy, but don't blame " race ". Life is just unfair at times, but you just try to keep it movin' , like the rest of us. Peace.
 
You make some good points, divine, but you can't completely dismiss people's concerns over AA as invalid. It is the one thing that people have NO control over that affects their medical school application in a big way.
 
SanDiegoSOD said:
It's not a line of reasoning I buy, but I know that there is nothing I can do about it at this point in my life.
Click to expand...

Of course there is something that you can do about it. Put the pen to the paper and write a letter, or pick up the phone and make a call. Talking about it here isn't going to do much except reinforce your thoughts on the issue - not change anything. Since you feel so strongly about it, be proactive.
 
SanDiegoSOD said:
You make some good points, divine, but you can't completely dismiss people's concerns over AA as invalid. It is the one thing that people have NO control over that affects their medical school application in a big way.
Click to expand...

Point taken. It is understandable that people have anxiety surrounding the whole medical school application process, as it relates to affirmative action. I will concede that I have heard of outrageous circumstances under which students have been admitted, HOWEVER, these circumstances did not apply solely to " minorities ". When I was applying to medical school , I had no control over who comprised the admissions staff, but my caucasian , male counterpart,( lower numbers than me, and I mean LOW ) had his boss make a few calls and he was granted choice interviews/acceptances which were never an option for me. All I am saying is, that injustices are going to occur at many points during this lifetime. Just as I don't neccessarily believe that the majority of " majority " applicants are granted admission via the route of my colleague, it does happen. Is AA imperfect ? Sure. I would just like it to be clear, that all URM applicants/matriculants are not 2.0 / 20 composite slackers who have no legitimate reason to be in medical school. Hence, as the minority population in American medical schools as a whole, we cannot be the sole reason for other races not gaining admission. There are plenty of Caucasian applicants who are " mediocre " numerically , ( 25-29 MCAT/3.0-3.3 GPA ) and gain admission. If minorities are less than 10% of physicians/medical students in the US, how are we responsible for those who didnt gain acceptance ? It is an issue of demand exceeding availabililty. This, to me, is the crux of the issue.
 
I wasnt bringing up the validity of AA, I was calling into question the hypocrisy of saying you are ignoring race followed by saying you are seeking members of X race. I think much more should go into choosing a medical school candidate than numbers. Numbers are hardly indicative of who will be a good doctor but race is just as bad of an indicator of "diversity" and hardship. This is my opinion, I am not talking about AA here, just double speak.
 
divinemsm said:
........Is AA imperfect ? Sure. ....... It is an issue of demand exceeding availabililty. This, to me, is the crux of the issue.
Click to expand...

When allocation for AA was established, was there any new medical school built for the purpose or those seats were just taken away from the existing ones? So far, has anyone made an attempt to refine the status quo? New schools for such a purpose could be allopathic, osteopathic, irish, australian or anyone of those international schools. Na... like I said before.... there is no such thing as shortage of physicians here in USA, absolutely, relatively, regardlessly or whatever. That's why it takes so long before ones can get to practice their medicine. By the way, is there such thing as AA for nurse practitioners , physician assistances and administrative positions in medicine? Why not allocating some HMO executive position to AA? It could serve the purpose much better. Constructively yours,

(forgive a newbie in AA's, please, 😀 )
 
kae51202 said:
Perhaps I missed something but can you tell me where it says or is implied that the people they are seeking for diversity purposes are "just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats." As a matter of fact just tell me the page number in the MSAR so I can see it for myself. I guess diversity is not so important to you but apparently it is to the adcoms who obviously see the value of having a diverse student body. It's better for their medical school and its better for our society. Having a diverse class is more important than admitting "white/Asian applicants with just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats." Has it ever occured to you that the med schools really want more minority students? That maybe they no longer value producing classes composed of mainly whites and asians?
Click to expand...


last time i checked asians were considered one of the smaller minorities in amerca.
 
skypilot said:
This table says a lot

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/168-187.html

I won't get into a debate, but there is a problem whether people acknowledge it or not. The med schools are doing their best to find a solution within the constraints of this imperfect society.
Click to expand...

There is a problem, the question is whether lowering standards is the way to deal with it.
 
skypilot said:
This table says a lot

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/168-187.html

I won't get into a debate, but there is a problem whether people acknowledge it or not. The med schools are doing their best to find a solution within the constraints of this imperfect society.
Click to expand...

Many of those physicians in the table may not be US graduates though. And I doubt if the med schools would be able to do anything. Voluntarily or not, it's out of their jurisdiction. Once in while, every doctor will not be able to say anything else but "Sorry dudes, but you're going to have to live with it!" "See Dr. Kevorkian if you don't like it, please."

I have heard that many international medical graduates used to practice in under-served areas. Is that still happening? Or the situation has been so reversed that URM physicians are able to reciprocate the courtesy to offspring of those IMGs now. Who said that life isn't fair?

BTW, would somebody diversify the NBA a little bit, please? The league appears perfectly represented. Nothing should be that perfect, I think.
 
velocypedalist said:
AA based on socioeconomic, rather than racial, factors....argument over
Click to expand...

I told you Mr. Jones kool-aid is not for public consuption! SO stick to the crack!
 
My god, we have beat this horse so hard now that it has turned into a freaking diamond. AA is trying to fix a societal problem that takes root long before someone decides they want to be a docotor and it so happens that blacks and hispanics make up this group. And it is assumed that ol Mr. Jim Crow is responsible for this , blah , blah.... If you look at most minorities in medical schools, esp blacks they are first or second gen immigrants and their families never had to expereince Jim Crow. So that is a nice curve ball for AA, I think the ump needs to pull the picher for illegal play.
 
Any sorry sucka that doesn't get in and then blames AA on it... haha... is a sorry sucka. Maybe if you spent ur whining time studying for the mcat, so you can get that 31 to go along with your 3.5 from Butthole state, you'd get into somewhere. Your numbers get you to an interview at best, then its you. So if you didnt get in, you're the problem 🙂 What makes you think that people would want you as their doctor anyway? Personally, I'd rather have an URM as my doctor than some whining white boy whose dad is a doctor and who still can't pull it on the mcat. I know people with 3.9 in bioE and 34 on MCAT who got no love from admissions committee's...., it wasn't AA that took their spot, it was theirs to lose. Quit crying sucka's!
 
kenshinoro2004 said:
Any sorry sucka that doesn't get in and then blames AA on it... haha... is a sorry sucka. Maybe if you spent ur whining time studying for the mcat, so you can get that 31 to go along with your 3.5 from Butthole state, you'd get into somewhere. Your numbers get you to an interview at best, then its you. So if you didnt get in, you're the problem 🙂 What makes you think that people would want you as their doctor anyway? Personally, I'd rather have an URM as my doctor than some whining white boy whose dad is a doctor and who still can't pull it on the mcat. I know people with 3.9 in bioE and 34 on MCAT who got no love from admissions committee's...., it wasn't AA that took their spot, it was theirs to lose. Quit crying sucka's!
Click to expand...

i wouldn't want a doctor that talks like you. 🙄

Just because a person's father is/was a doctor that person is supposed to preform well on the MCAT? What kind of reasoning is that?
 
One of the most frustrating things about AA is the absolute denial its benificiaries are in regading the fact that AA takes other peoples spots.
There are X number of spots, and giving some away based on race means you have taken some from others based on race. There is simply no denying that statment. It is one thing to argue that it is justifed, it is another to deny it is reality.
 
kenshinoro2004 said:
I'd rather have an URM as my doctor than some whining white boy whose dad is a doctor and who still can't pull it on the mcat.
Click to expand...

Please, don't ever call me a "whining white boy whose dad is a doctor" ever again. you don't know **** about what i've been through 😡
 
Cerbernator said:
Please, don't ever call me a "whining white boy whose dad is a doctor" ever again. you don't know **** about what i've been through 😡
Click to expand...

Sorry Cerb,
I hear you, but sometimes people would rather get offended that listen to what you actually are saying.

BTW, to the critics, would AA take into account a poor white boy raised in the country in a medically underserved community? If it was truly socioeconomically based it should.
Believe me, people are often as discriminatory based on your economic status/word usage/presentation (culture basically, in this instance, rural american culture) as they are your race.
 
!dr_nick! said:
Sorry Cerb,
I hear you, but sometimes people would rather get offended that listen to what you actually are saying.

BTW, to the critics, would AA take into account a poor white boy raised in the country in a medically underserved community? If it was truly socioeconomically based it should.
Believe me, people are often as discriminatory based on your economic status/word usage/presentation (culture basically, in this instance, rural american culture) as they are your race.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY
This is why the AA argument is $hit. If is was based soley on cercumstance then there would be white trash getting in with subpar scores, (of course this may be more of a case for vet school due to the nature of the beast).
 
cerbernator, there is hypocrisy everywhere, all the time. the sooner you let go of expectations of consistent behavior, even in rarified professions such as medicine, the sooner you will be able to accept life as it is.

hypocrisy and double standards are a way of life.
 
If we all functioned that way then there would still be segregation and Jim Crow, not to mention sufferage, gay rights, asylums, and Elvis shaking his hipps on TV!
 
kae51202 said:
Perhaps I missed something but can you tell me where it says or is implied that the people they are seeking for diversity purposes are "just-below-threshhold MCAT/GPA stats."


I guess diversity is not so important to you but apparently it is to the adcoms who obviously see the value of having a diverse student body.
Click to expand...

If the stat's of "diverse" non-asian students were not sub-par (overall), then AA programs, URM recruitment, special tutoring availability, etc would not exist.

I think your importance to the adcom's has been mis-filed under Politically Correct.

If you really want across the board fairness, socioeconomic equalization without regard to pigment is the answer. Then again, it has been cited that the numbers would not match the general population percentages with this path. Since pro sports are so nice being "diverse", where is the outcry for equalization??

If you desire rural/underserved docs, then sign a contract to that extent. Quit playing games.
 
I never like it when my team dominates a game only to lose it because the ref is part of the game. That why I know how opponents to the AA feel. They have won all the battles but will never win the war. When a deviation from a universal fairness is not wrong, people become frustrated and confrontational. They amber turn to flame. But AA is not the only flaw in medical school application process. There are many others that we all have to live with too. I believe that many horses' legs have already been broken. It?s only a matter of time before one would accept the fact that those horses must be eutanized. Everything here is 50/50. Without luck, it's anyone choice to cocktail hope and desperation any way one would wish.
Does anyone know if there is such thing as AA controversy in osteopathic school application? I hear that they keep on building new schools all over places. Also, there are plenty of caribbean schools more than we ever need. Regardlessly, everyone who really wants to serve as doctors should be willing to go through every conventional routes before taking a short cut. I mean, if numbers are really the factor, the special assistance could be rendered after the completeion of Board Exams when it counts the most. A handicap scoring system (based on performance in medical schools) or contingency license could be granted to those who would need it. We all know that graduates from all schools can have their resdency trainings here. Don?t tell me that a our future doctors can?t even get in one of that school. Besides, we could even send a troop or two there as LORs, couldn't we? Hey ref! You can fix the game much better than this, can?t you?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top