I am not permitted to shadow the specialists

[Mangojuice]

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So, I have shadowed once at a large emergency care animal hospital, which employs vets in many specialties. It was a great experience. In attempting to schedule to shadow a second time, I was told that, during the days/times I'm able to do this, it is mostly specialty appointments, and that those vets don't like having shadowers "in the room" with the client and pet because those appointments are "more involved."

This is a "things that make you go Hmm" moment for me.

I have shadowed other vets, including an oncology specialist, and have certainly been in the room with them, else there's not much to shadow, ya know?

So, I was uber polite and accommodating of this boundary, set up the shadowing, and will be interested to see what I actually SEE while I'm there. 😕

 

[Escalla]

I work at a large emergency/specialist centre and they have the same policy. Any volunteers/shadows are in the ER only, but ER is 24 hrs so there's no time restriction.

Edit: And in the ER they are still only in the back and not in with the client.

 

[Mangojuice]

I work at a large emergency/specialist centre and they have the same policy. Any volunteers/shadows are in the ER only, but ER is 24 hrs so there's no time restriction.

Ah, ok...thanks, Escalla.

That's what I love about this forum. This scene is so new to me.

So, I guess I'll be there and I might be slightly bored? But I will have gained more hours of shadowing, so yay.

 

[Escalla]

Ah, ok...thanks, Escalla.

That's what I love about this forum. This scene is so new to me.

So, I guess I'll be there and I might be slightly bored? But I will have gained more hours of shadowing, so yay.

It depends on how the clinic works. There was plenty going on in the back treatment area between ER and speciality treatments.

E.g. I got to help out with a lot of allergy tests with Derm because those weren't done in the exam room. Endoscopy, U/S, etc as well.

 

[Escalla]

So basically you're able to be around for the "medicine" but not the client interaction. Since ER/speciality appts are more involved (like they said and very costly too lol), I think it's reasonable to limit the people in and out of the room with the client.

 

[Mangojuice]

So basically you're able to be around for the "medicine" but not the client interaction. Since ER/speciality appts are more involved (like they said and very costly too lol), I think it's reasonable to limit the people in and out of the room with the client.

Thanks for breaking this down, Escalla. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[DVMDream]

So, I have shadowed once at a large emergency care animal hospital, which employs vets in many specialties. It was a great experience. In attempting to schedule to shadow a second time, I was told that, during the days/times I'm able to do this, it is mostly specialty appointments, and that those vets don't like having shadowers "in the room" with the client and pet because those appointments are "more involved."

This is a "things that make you go Hmm" moment for me.

I have shadowed other vets, including an oncology specialist, and have certainly been in the room with them, else there's not much to shadow, ya know?

So, I was uber polite and accommodating of this boundary, set up the shadowing, and will be interested to see what I actually SEE while I'm there. 😕

Not sure why it makes you go "hmm". If the vet doesn't want shadows with him in the exam room with the client, there is nothing wrong with that. Often times it can be distracting to both the owner and the vet to have someone else standing there, especially in complex, difficult, or emotional cases.

Also, there are PLENTY of other things to shadow/see in a vet clinic other than what takes place in the exam room. You need to take the effort to find these things. The vast majority of vet work happens outside of the exam room, really the exam room is used to get a history of the patient or to talk with the client about diagnosis/treatment/etc.

 

[Mangojuice]

Not sure why it makes you go "hmm". If the vet doesn't want shadows with him in the exam room with the client, there is nothing wrong with that. Often times it can be distracting to both the owner and the vet to have someone else standing there, especially in complex, difficult, or emotional cases.

Also, there are PLENTY of other things to shadow/see in a vet clinic other than what takes place in the exam room. You need to take the effort to find these things. The vast majority of vet work happens outside of the exam room, really the exam room is used to get a history of the patient or to talk with the client about diagnosis/treatment/etc.

I'm new to the experience of shadowing. That's what makes me go "hmm," generally speaking.

I am accustomed to shadowing a vet oncologist and following her from room to room and observing both the med part of things, and also her interactions with the human client. In other words, actual "shadowing" of her.

The emergency hospital scenario will apparently be different, as Escalla was helpful enough to explain.

So glad this forum exists, for ALL of the "hmm" moments that we all have. 😉

 

[Mangojuice]

I would like to add that, for any pre-vet student who has not had the experience of seeing a specialty vet "in action" with a distraught, upset, frightened, human, dealing with a very sick, beloved animal and a complicated case, it is intense, sometimes very painful, educational, and incredibly inspiring and moving.

I hope that every pre-vet student will have the same opportunity that I have had.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm new to the experience of shadowing. That's what makes me go "hmm," generally speaking.

I am accustomed to shadowing a vet oncologist and following her from room to room and observing both the med part of things, and also her interactions with the human client. In other words, actual "shadowing" of her.

The emergency hospital scenario will apparently be different, as Escalla was helpful enough to explain.

So glad this forum exists, for ALL of the "hmm" moments that we all have. 😉

I read your post as though you were upset/angry/thought they had something to hide. Especially with the, "and have certainly been in the room with them, else there's not much to shadow, ya know?" Just seemed like you were saying something along the lines of, "what's the point if I can't go into the exam room." I may have misread your original post but that is kind of how it sounded. But seeing as you have shadowed before, you should know that there is much more to be seen and much more to shadow than the exam room.

 

[BlackDog17]

I think this is a pretty common policy in many clinics. Especially when I first started shadowing, I was never allowed in on stressful/emotional cases. Anything involving euthanasia, terminal illness, poor prognosis, etc and I was usually told to stay in the treatment area. Even as a paid employee, I would often be dismissed from the room before the client was given the diagnosis.

It's just better for everyone involved if a student is not in the room in those situations. If the client has an established relationship with the vet, they're going to feel much more comfortable hearing a difficult diagnosis from the vet alone. Having a stranger in the room just makes it awkward, especially with emotional cases. Plus if you're still new to the clinic, they don't necessarily know you well enough to know how you'll react to those cases. The last thing they want is to have you start breaking down in tears mid-euthanasia or yelling at the client for not being able to afford treatment. Once they get to know you better, and you've had more experience in the clinic, they may start to allow you in on those cases.

And I can understand why they wouldn't want you in on the specialty cases either. Like you said, these cases are much more complex. Often you're dealing with owners who are seeking a second (or third, or fourth) opinion and they are worried, frustrated, and demanding answers. Believe me, it's not easy being in a room alone with an anxious client who is constantly asking things like "Will the vet do X test? The other vet said Fluffy didn't need X test but I think he should have done X test, don't you think so? He can't be a very good vet if he wouldn't even do X test!" There's only so many tactful variations of "I'm sure the vet will be able to answer all your questions when she arrives" that you can use there. And if you slip up and give medical advice or say the wrong thing, it can mean BIG trouble for both you and the clinic. So I can totally understand why they wouldn't want a new shadowing student around in those situations.

 

[TheBirddog]

Not sure why it makes you go "hmm". If the vet doesn't want shadows with him in the exam room with the client, there is nothing wrong with that. Often times it can be distracting to both the owner and the vet to have someone else standing there, especially in complex, difficult, or emotional cases.

Also, there are PLENTY of other things to shadow/see in a vet clinic other than what takes place in the exam room. You need to take the effort to find these things. The vast majority of vet work happens outside of the exam room, really the exam room is used to get a history of the patient or to talk with the client about diagnosis/treatment/etc.

I should start this post with the statement that I could not possibly disagree more strongly with your last sentence.

I can understand the sensitivity of a poor prognosis, QOL, euth, etc. and the vet not wanting students/other staff in the room for the appointment. At the same time, it is absolutely critical for pre-vets to see the doctor-client interaction that goes on in every type of appointment. Vet med is not just about the blood, guts, and other exciting things that happen in treatment areas - that's just the fun part, not necessarily the hardest part at all. Vet med's not even about the animal half the time - it's about being able to interact comfortably with other humans in order to help them help their pet. What goes on in the exam room should absolutely NOT be discredited and considered unimportant. After all, getting an accurate history can be the difference between life and death, especially for a patient in poor health. And delivering a diagnosis and treatment options to the owner can easily make the difference between life and death - if the doctor does not present the treatment options in a realistic but understanding way, the owner may be reluctant to treat at all and then bam, you've got yourself an untreated and possibly dying patient.

So I can sympathize with the OP saying it's disappointing to miss out on the doctor-client interaction. Eventually you'll find a clinic where the doctor is willing to ask the owner's permission to let you in on the appointment and then you'll get to see where the REAL hard work comes in. Don't give up!

 

[Escalla]

I should start this post with the statement that I could not possibly disagree more strongly with your last sentence.

I can understand the sensitivity of a poor prognosis, QOL, euth, etc. and the vet not wanting students/other staff in the room for the appointment. At the same time, it is absolutely critical for pre-vets to see the doctor-client interaction that goes on in every type of appointment. Vet med is not just about the blood, guts, and other exciting things that happen in treatment areas - that's just the fun part, not necessarily the hardest part at all. Vet med's not even about the animal half the time - it's about being able to interact comfortably with other humans in order to help them help their pet. What goes on in the exam room should absolutely NOT be discredited and considered unimportant. After all, getting an accurate history can be the difference between life and death, especially for a patient in poor health. And delivering a diagnosis and treatment options to the owner can easily make the difference between life and death - if the doctor does not present the treatment options in a realistic but understanding way, the owner may be reluctant to treat at all and then bam, you've got yourself an untreated and possibly dying patient.

So I can sympathize with the OP saying it's disappointing to miss out on the doctor-client interaction. Eventually you'll find a clinic where the doctor is willing to ask the owner's permission to let you in on the appointment and then you'll get to see where the REAL hard work comes in. Don't give up!

Yes, vet-client interaction and communication in general is important....but I really don't think experiencing these sensitive situations first-hand is critical to pre-vets. Should you understand the complexities of the situation? Absolutely. It's important for interviews. However, having been in the situation personally with my own pet (ER and specialist), I know I want as few people as possible witnessing my emotional collapse over my pet. It's simply not something I want another student gawking at and given the unpredictability of someone without training for these situations, it's generally better off that pre-vets are not in these rooms. It's a level of courtesy that I believe should be extended.

There are vets that will allow you in the room. I've assisted with euths in-clinic and on farm-calls as a pre-vet at a rural practice, but typically a specialist centre will not allow this (in my clinic's case, it's not opinion, it's policy).

You can learn about doctor-client interaction in less involved appointments.

 

[LetItSnow]

I should start this post with the statement that I could not possibly disagree more strongly with your last sentence.

Wow, that's pretty vehement.

I think you read too much into DVMD's comment. She's just saying that there is a crap-ton that goes on in a clinic outside of the exam room, and if a vet is uncomfortable with a shadower in the exam room *for whatever reason*, then just suck it up and take advantage of the million other things to learn or do.

I don't really think it's that big of a deal. Some vets don't mind shadowers in with clients. Some do. In the end, it's THEIR appointment, THEIR client, and THEIR responsibility, so I think it's completely unreasonable to criticize any vet who says "I'd rather you sit this one out."

Anyway, I think you're overstating things. It's not "absolutely critical for pre-vets to see the doctor-client interaction that goes on in every type of appointment."

I mean, really? Absolutely critical? Every type of appointment? Shadowing isn't about getting exposure to every last nuance of the field; it's about seeing enough to start learning something useful and to help make a decision about whether the career is for you. It's hardly necessary to see "every" type of appointment. Hell, I'm in my third year and I can think of countless types of appointments I've never experienced (and never want to). You make it sound like by the time you're done shadowing you should be a fully competent doc ready to tackle any client interaction possible. Which is silly.

You can learn about doctor-client interaction in less involved appointments.

Right. And frankly, mastering some of the 'tougher' conversations with clients is sufficiently beyond a typical pre-vet shadower that they'd be better off sitting in on the more straightforward interactions and trying to pick up some tips there. You don't jump into calculus before learning basic arithmetic.

 

[DVMDream]

I should start this post with the statement that I could not possibly disagree more strongly with your last sentence.

I can understand the sensitivity of a poor prognosis, QOL, euth, etc. and the vet not wanting students/other staff in the room for the appointment. At the same time, it is absolutely critical for pre-vets to see the doctor-client interaction that goes on in every type of appointment. Vet med is not just about the blood, guts, and other exciting things that happen in treatment areas - that's just the fun part, not necessarily the hardest part at all. Vet med's not even about the animal half the time - it's about being able to interact comfortably with other humans in order to help them help their pet. What goes on in the exam room should absolutely NOT be discredited and considered unimportant. After all, getting an accurate history can be the difference between life and death, especially for a patient in poor health. And delivering a diagnosis and treatment options to the owner can easily make the difference between life and death - if the doctor does not present the treatment options in a realistic but understanding way, the owner may be reluctant to treat at all and then bam, you've got yourself an untreated and possibly dying patient.

So I can sympathize with the OP saying it's disappointing to miss out on the doctor-client interaction. Eventually you'll find a clinic where the doctor is willing to ask the owner's permission to let you in on the appointment and then you'll get to see where the REAL hard work comes in. Don't give up!

Another pre-vet who thinks they should get to do, see and hear everything.

Yes, client interactions are important however, that wasn't my point. There are many things that occur in the vet clinic that are just as important, like diagnosing the patient. There is also more to being a vet than the client/patient interactions, interactions with the staff is highly important, also many vets communicate on the phone with clients about diagnosis and treatment, those you might be able to listen to.

When you are in the vet clinic dealing with a highly emotional, worried, anxious and frightened owner the last thing you want to worry about is your shadow crying, saying something stupid, or otherwise causing distractions.

When the vet agrees that you can shadow him/her that vet is taking on a huge liability: you can be hurt, you can inadvertently touch something and break it, or you could say something stupid in front of the client.

For example: Fluffy comes to the vet and is diagnosed with allergies. The vet explains this to Fluffy's owner as well as the treatment options that he/she think best for fluffy. Kid shadowing realizes that isn't the treatment her vet did for her dog with allergies and says, "My dog had allergies too and we blah blah blah and that worked really well." Now the client is mad because the vet didn't offer that and she wants to do that for Fluffy. What that kid didn't know was that Fluffy also has IMHA and can't receive the other treatment for allergies. Now you have an angry client who doesn't trust you and potentially an untreated dog. This isn't made up by the way, many students were doing this on their EMS with a vet.

The bottom line is, shadowing isn't a RIGHT it is a PRIVILEGE and one that you should be very thankful of if the vet allows you to come. Dealing with clients is very important but it isn't everything and there are some interactions in a vet clinic where having a shadow with isn't appropriate especially when you don't know this person or how they will act.

So, swallow your, "pre-vets deserve this attitude" and be thankful for the opportunities that are given to you.

 

[DVMDream]

I mean, really? Absolutely critical? Every type of appointment? Shadowing isn't about getting exposure to every last nuance of the field; it's about seeing enough to start learning something useful and to help make a decision about whether the career is for you. It's hardly necessary to see "every" type of appointment. Hell, I'm in my third year and I can think of countless types of appointments I've never experienced (and never want to). You make it sound like by the time you're done shadowing you should be a fully competent doc ready to tackle any client interaction possible. Which is silly.

Could you imagine taking a pre-vet into an exam room with an angry client, who is pissed off about something that may or may not be a legitimate complaint? Talk about making the client even more upset and angry. Shadows don't/can't see every type of client interactions because there are some interactions were it is completely unprofessional to have a shadow with you. Shadowing doesn't necessarily equate to following around the vet right behind them... it isn't a literal term. You are there to watch them and see what occurs in whatever capacity you can and they will allow you to do. Also, don't undervalue the other staff members in the clinic, the techs have a lot of knowledge as well and while they aren't vets, they can sure tell you/teach you things that will open your eyes as to what vet med is like. And if you really want to learn about client interactions, ask the vet, say, "Hey, how would you go about telling the owner about this?" or "How would you go about getting a patient history?" Yes, seeing it is nice, but you don't have to witness it to learn about it.

 

[that redhead]

Mangojuice, it may be that after you have spent a bit more time at the facility, the staff will gain confidence in you and you may be invited to a less complicated case. Everyone has already brought up good points regarding why they aren't likely to want you in there right away - as long as you demonstrate your willingness to learn (through helping out on the clinic side of things) it will still be a beneficial experience.

 

[Mangojuice]

I read your post as though you were upset/angry/thought they had something to hide. Especially with the, "and have certainly been in the room with them, else there's not much to shadow, ya know?" Just seemed like you were saying something along the lines of, "what's the point if I can't go into the exam room." I may have misread your original post but that is kind of how it sounded. But seeing as you have shadowed before, you should know that there is much more to be seen and much more to shadow than the exam room.

Yep. I was SURE the vets had something to hide...not. 😛

And I was surprised by the policy, as the vet oncologist with whom I've shadowed seemed to want me to see everything that was happening and had no qualms about it whatsoever.

Newbie here.

 

[Mangojuice]

I should start this post with the statement that I could not possibly disagree more strongly with your last sentence.

I can understand the sensitivity of a poor prognosis, QOL, euth, etc. and the vet not wanting students/other staff in the room for the appointment. At the same time, it is absolutely critical for pre-vets to see the doctor-client interaction that goes on in every type of appointment. Vet med is not just about the blood, guts, and other exciting things that happen in treatment areas - that's just the fun part, not necessarily the hardest part at all. Vet med's not even about the animal half the time - it's about being able to interact comfortably with other humans in order to help them help their pet. What goes on in the exam room should absolutely NOT be discredited and considered unimportant. After all, getting an accurate history can be the difference between life and death, especially for a patient in poor health. And delivering a diagnosis and treatment options to the owner can easily make the difference between life and death - if the doctor does not present the treatment options in a realistic but understanding way, the owner may be reluctant to treat at all and then bam, you've got yourself an untreated and possibly dying patient.

So I can sympathize with the OP saying it's disappointing to miss out on the doctor-client interaction. Eventually you'll find a clinic where the doctor is willing to ask the owner's permission to let you in on the appointment and then you'll get to see where the REAL hard work comes in. Don't give up!

YES! THANK YOU.

I appreciate everyone's comments. It's all grist for the mill for me as I go forward.

I SHOULD have clarified in my original comments that:
1) the oncology vet is my PERSONAL vet. She has known me for over a year, knows my character, knows how I care for my own pet, knows my level of dedication to being aware of my pets needs and acting on my pet's behalf, she knows how I've dealt with an extremely upsetting, tiring situation of having a terminally ill pet. That's huge.

2) I'm 50 yrs old.

3) She knows what I do for a living and that I have a high emotional IQ and will not be saying ANYTHING in the treatment room, let alone the wrong thing. I smile a lot, or look somber, whichever the situation calls for. That's it.

So. The client-vet interaction is extremely important to me and, as I've mentioned, watching her balance the ****-ton of info she needs to impart to the human, combined with her kindness and attention to the animal, while also maintaining enough detachment to not fall apart and get to her next appointment has been a profound experience for me.

And very, very important.

 

[LetItSnow]

So. The client-vet interaction is extremely important to me and, as I've mentioned, watching her balance the ****-ton of info she needs to impart to the human, combined with her kindness and attention to the animal, while also maintaining enough detachment to not fall apart and get to her next appointment has been a profound experience for me.

And very, very important.

*shrug* If it's super important to you that you have access to sit in on every appointment that you want to sit in on, then I guess your best option is to find another vet to shadow, and be sure to tell them up front that you expect to have full access to every client interaction.

 

[DVMDream]

Yep. I was SURE the vets had something to hide...not. 😛

And I was surprised by the policy, as the vet oncologist with whom I've shadowed seemed to want me to see everything that was happening and had no qualms about it whatsoever.

Newbie here.

Yeah. Tone can be hard to understand over the internet. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. 🙂

But, there is a lot to see and do outside the exam room that I am sure you will find fascinating. Also, it won't be detrimental to not be in the exam room, the only thing that will make you a good communicator with clients is repetition and doing it for yourself and that you don't tend to do just as a shadow. You can watch an interaction a million times, but there is nothing like actually doing it. Maybe after some time with this vet or these vets they will allow you to join them in a consultation.

 

[DVMDream]

I SHOULD have clarified in my original comments that:
1) the oncology vet is my PERSONAL vet. She has known me for over a year, knows my character, knows how I care for my own pet, knows my level of dedication to being aware of my pets needs and acting on my pet's behalf, she knows how I've dealt with an extremely upsetting, tiring situation of having a terminally ill pet. That's huge.


So. The client-vet interaction is extremely important to me and, as I've mentioned, watching her balance the ****-ton of info she needs to impart to the human, combined with her kindness and attention to the animal, while also maintaining enough detachment to not fall apart and get to her next appointment has been a profound experience for me.

And very, very important.

This could be why she allows you into the exam rooms, because she does know you. Someone that doesn't know you is going to be more skeptical. You have to remember these vets are doing you a favour, you make a mistake, stand in the wrong place or slip up and say something incorrectly; it will be THEM paying the price, not you. (And I am not saying that you would do these things, but the vet does not know that, they don't know you yet.)

Also, time to learn about other things. I get the client-vet interaction is VERY important to you, blah, blah, blah. But there is more to it. There is basically zero client interaction if you can't diagnosis a patient. There won't be much work done if you can't interact with your staff well. And if you happen to own the business (or even a part of the business) then you have to balance in those responsibilities too. There is also answering emails, looking over blood work, calling clients, reviewing charts, writing up SOAPs, checking on hospitalized patients, etc, etc. All of these need to be done too. Will communication is important, you don't need it if you can't do the rest of the job.

 

[TheBirddog]

Another pre-vet who thinks they should get to do, see and hear everything.

Yes, client interactions are important however, that wasn't my point. There are many things that occur in the vet clinic that are just as important, like diagnosing the patient. There is also more to being a vet than the client/patient interactions, interactions with the staff is highly important, also many vets communicate on the phone with clients about diagnosis and treatment, those you might be able to listen to.

When you are in the vet clinic dealing with a highly emotional, worried, anxious and frightened owner the last thing you want to worry about is your shadow crying, saying something stupid, or otherwise causing distractions.

When the vet agrees that you can shadow him/her that vet is taking on a huge liability: you can be hurt, you can inadvertently touch something and break it, or you could say something stupid in front of the client.

For example: Fluffy comes to the vet and is diagnosed with allergies. The vet explains this to Fluffy's owner as well as the treatment options that he/she think best for fluffy. Kid shadowing realizes that isn't the treatment her vet did for her dog with allergies and says, "My dog had allergies too and we blah blah blah and that worked really well." Now the client is mad because the vet didn't offer that and she wants to do that for Fluffy. What that kid didn't know was that Fluffy also has IMHA and can't receive the other treatment for allergies. Now you have an angry client who doesn't trust you and potentially an untreated dog. This isn't made up by the way, many students were doing this on their EMS with a vet.

The bottom line is, shadowing isn't a RIGHT it is a PRIVILEGE and one that you should be very thankful of if the vet allows you to come. Dealing with clients is very important but it isn't everything and there are some interactions in a vet clinic where having a shadow with isn't appropriate especially when you don't know this person or how they will act.

So, swallow your, "pre-vets deserve this attitude" and be thankful for the opportunities that are given to you.

I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your post. I am also not trying to devalue other facets of a clinical experience.

I understand that you are a vet student now and feel that you can look down on pre-vets. Don't forget you were in our shoes once. Not all pre-vets are immature, emotional wrecks and if a veterinarian takes a moment to get to know a good shadow, he or she will understand that. I'm sure you were an excellent shadower in your day and I think it would behoove you to recall those days and just how hungry you were for knowledge.

I'm not saying that all vets should let all shadows in on all appointments. Simply that there are vets out there who know certain clients well enough to feel comfortable asking their permission to include a shadow/intern/assistant/etc. in the appointment. Those two situations are very different.

As far as asking a vet later in the day how they would theoretically handle certain things (a possibility mentioned by another poster), good luck. I don't know if I'm an exception, but I'm lucky if I get a "hi" from the vets I work with - work with, as in paid vet assistant.

I suggest you swallow your "pre-vets are the scum of the earth attitude" and be a little more gracious towards your future colleagues.

 

[DVMDream]

I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your post. I am also not trying to devalue other facets of a clinical experience.

I understand that you are a vet student now and feel that you can look down on pre-vets. Don't forget you were in our shoes once. Not all pre-vets are immature, emotional wrecks and if a veterinarian takes a moment to get to know a good shadow, he or she will understand that. I'm sure you were an excellent shadower in your day and I think it would behoove you to recall those days and just how hungry you were for knowledge.

I'm not saying that all vets should let all shadows in on all appointments. Simply that there are vets out there who know certain clients well enough to feel comfortable asking their permission to include a shadow/intern/assistant/etc. in the appointment. Those two situations are very different.

As far as asking a vet later in the day how they would theoretically handle certain things (a possibility mentioned by another poster), good luck. I don't know if I'm an exception, but I'm lucky if I get a "hi" from the vets I work with - work with, as in paid vet assistant.

I suggest you swallow your "pre-vets are the scum of the earth attitude" and be a little more gracious towards your future colleagues.

Wow, listen I didn't say all pre-vets are scum, emotional wrecks. I said, "another" one, because we had someone else in these forums not too long ago acting the same way.

I've been a member of this forum for a while, I have helped many pre-vets, posted advice, proofread personal statements and spend quite a bit of time here. I see people come and go, I see people ask great questions and I post to help them, but when you act like a selfish, entitled brat that is how I will respond. Now, if I responded to every pre-vet with that type of response, regardless of the situation, then you would be right in your assessment, but I don't. I'm a very nice person, I will help you, but I don't sugarcoat things, if you act like a brat I'm going to tell you, hey you are behaving like a brat.

I spent 7 years as a vet assistant/tech, I trained and taught around 25 people, some of them pre-vet, most of them are still working today in this field. I have posted advice in the 2018 thread this year (most recently I was hit with hostility for trying to help, which was seen as a misunderstanding with some nerves thrown in due to applications) and I volunteered MY time to proofread personal statements. So, you haven't been on these forums for long, you don't know people around here or what they have done and clearly you haven't seen my posts elsewhere. Being honest to you in one post, in one thread does not equal me hating all pre-vets or thinking they are scum. I don't believe anyone is scum, I do believe you are acting very selfish to expect a vet to allow you to do what you want.

Also, you seem to have changed your mind in just these two posts because before it was "crucial" that pre-vets see every appointment and now it is if the client agrees and the vet allows it, which is kind of what LIS and I were saying. No, I don't think all pre-vets are scum, I don't believe any person to be scum but I do believe we have had a few more pre-vets this year or at least recently act as if they should be given everything. Be thankful for an opportunity you do get, learn from it, there are many pre-vets that can't find a place to shadow and would kill for the opportunity. Yes, I do understand the desire to want to see everything but to complain that you are only getting to see x and not y is a bit childish, you are lucky to be there.

 

[BlackDog17]

I apologize if I misunderstood the tone of your post. I am also not trying to devalue other facets of a clinical experience.

I understand that you are a vet student now and feel that you can look down on pre-vets. Don't forget you were in our shoes once. Not all pre-vets are immature, emotional wrecks and if a veterinarian takes a moment to get to know a good shadow, he or she will understand that. I'm sure you were an excellent shadower in your day and I think it would behoove you to recall those days and just how hungry you were for knowledge.

I'm not saying that all vets should let all shadows in on all appointments. Simply that there are vets out there who know certain clients well enough to feel comfortable asking their permission to include a shadow/intern/assistant/etc. in the appointment. Those two situations are very different.

As far as asking a vet later in the day how they would theoretically handle certain things (a possibility mentioned by another poster), good luck. I don't know if I'm an exception, but I'm lucky if I get a "hi" from the vets I work with - work with, as in paid vet assistant.

I suggest you swallow your "pre-vets are the scum of the earth attitude" and be a little more gracious towards your future colleagues.

No hypocrisy or anything there. 🙄

A question was asked, DVMD answered it honestly. There's no need to jump down her throat for it. Yes, every vet, shadower, and client is different. DVDM provided an answer to the question that incorporated a reasonable explanation for the way that many, perhaps even most, veterinarians prefer to manage their practices. Not once did she suggest that "pre-vets are scum" or whatever other knee-jerk nonsense you feel like throwing into your post.

So, you've been allowed in on many client interactions. Awesome. Good for you. It's always good to gain experience with that aspect of veterinary practice. But that doesn't mean that you'll be allowed to the same privilege at every clinic, and it DEFINITELY doesn't mean that you can go into every clinic demanding to be allowed into the exam room. That is NOT being "gracious towards your future colleagues". That is being disrespectful and rude, and no vet is going to put up with that kind of attitude. And that's what DVMD is saying: you are not entitled to an all-access pass in every clinic you visit. You need to respect whatever decision the vet makes on the matter, and understand that they have acceptable reasons for doing so - which is exactly the point of the responses here. Sure, it's always possible to go back later and politely ask to be allowed in the exam rooms, once the clinic knows you better. But if you go into every clinic feeling like you deserve to be allowed to do whatever you want, you're going to earn yourself a bad reputation very quickly.

You've already pointed out that not every vet works the same way. I suggest you keep your own words in mind. Just because the vet you currently happen to work with doesn't speak to you does not mean that every vet will be the same. I've worked with plenty of vets who couldn't be bothered to talk to me. I've also worked with many more who would gladly sit down and go over the entire case with me if I asked. So actually, the advice to ask the vet questions about client interactions IS excellent advice. Just because your vet wouldn't be open to it doesn't mean no vets will ever be open to it. There's no reason to get huffy just because your situation does not permit that kind of learning opportunity.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

First of all, DVMD is one of the most helpful people on this forum, so I think you are way out of line talking to her like that.

Secondly, regarding this whole topic of being in the exam room...
I have worked in the veterinary field since 1999... First as a volunteer then as an employee who eventually was in charge of coordinating volunteers and shadows. We were a general practice and did not allow volunteers in the exam rooms until they had proved they were professional and we could rely on them not to speak out of turn. There are many clients that are not comfortable with other people in the room and it is the clients right, just as much as the vets, to refuse a shadow in the exam room.

I also think it is your duty as a shadow to try and get to know the vets you work with. How do you expect to be trusted enough to accompany them into an exam room if they don't even acknowledge your presence? Talk to them, ask questions. Most vets don't mind. If they repeatedly blow you off you need to consider that you're either not a good fit for that hospital, or your approach needs to be fine tuned.

We would routinely not allow certain volunteers to return if they made no effort to converse with the vets.

Most shadow experiences are to get exposure, vet hours, and I assume an eLOR. So it is in your best interest to get to know the vet so they can write a good and accurate letter for you.

There is no all access or fast pass in a veterinary hospital. You earn your privileges and responsibilities. That may take longer at certain places, and will also depend on your willingness to get involved.

 

[LetItSnow]

I understand that you are a vet student now and feel that you can look down on pre-vets.

And...

I suggest you swallow your "pre-vets are the scum of the earth attitude"

And...

be a little more gracious towards your future colleagues.

Yeah. Someone with that blatant level of hypocrisy would be kicked out of my clinic in a heartbeat. DVMD didn't say anything remotely condescending, nor did she suggest pre-vets are the scum of the earth. Believe me, we definitely remember we "were there once" but there is a definite hint of entitlement from some pre-vets in this and other threads that seems to indicate they think it's somehow inappropriate for a vet to limit their access when shadowing, as if shadowers are an ancillary part of the clinic. Get real. The purpose of that clinic is to serve clients/patients. The only people that REALLY matter are the staff and the clients and the patients. Shadowers are extraneous. That's not me as some condescending vet student - I reminded myself I was extraneous back when I was shadowing, too.

 

[Mangojuice]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

 

[dyachei]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

Did you ask the specialty clinic why?

Yes, it's important. No it's not as important as understanding what it takes to be vet in the other aspects. Do I think you need to start off seeing the interactions? No. Do I think it's valuable? Yes. Do I get annoyed having 3-4 people in a tiny exam room? Yes. Instead of assuming the worst, ask why the policy is in place

 

[twelvetigers]

So when you are a vet in the future, make sure you let anyone shadowing come into the exam room with you.

 

[DVMDream]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

This vet, again, knows you! These other vets don't, maybe they will let you into an exam room after some time, but probably not with this attitude.



Why can't you just be grateful for opportunities given to you instead of complaining about one little piece of a bigger picture that you can't see? You say you are 50, but you are acting like you are 7. You are being given a cake, quit complaining that you don't get cookies too. 🙄

 

[BlackDog17]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

The reasons for this policy have already been explained multiple times in this thread.

Honestly, your apparent inability to understand and respect basic instructions, combined with your pigheaded insistence that everyone drop everything to accommodate YOU is going to keep you out of the exam room at most clinics. 🙄

 

[DVMDream]

The reasons for this policy have already been explained multiple times in this thread.

Honestly, your apparent inability to understand and respect basic instructions, combined with your pigheaded insistence that everyone drop everything to accommodate YOU is going to keep you out of the exam room at most clinics. 🙄

Forget about the exam room, I would kick her out of the clinic with that attitude. I don't care if you are 20 or 75, you respect boundaries and rules when someone else is gracious enough to do you a favour.

 

[BlackDog17]

Forget about the exam room, I would kick her out of the clinic with that attitude. I don't care if you are 20 or 75, you respect boundaries and rules when someone else is gracious enough to do you a favour.

Agreed. At one clinic I worked for, this kind of attitude would get the person demoted to kennel assistant very quickly. Nothing like cleaning poop all day to remind them that they are not as special and important as they think.

 

[LetItSnow]

You say you are 50, but you are acting like you are 7.

Amen. That whole "I'm going to drop this 'winning' argument and stomp out of the discussion" post was pretty much how debates with my 9 year old go.

 

[onisteverina]

This thread has been both amusing and obnoxious. Mangojuice, I work as a vet assistant at a small clinic and I'm pretty sure that us employees would quickly ask the doctor to not have you back as a shadow...

When a person is shadowing, you are COMPLETELY unnecessary and in the way most of the time.. You should be extremely grateful that you even had the opportunity. It is completely out of the kindness of whatever DVMs heart to let you follow them around and by no means is it something that they need to do. We get calls all of the time for people to volunteer/shadow and generally turn them down.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I mean, really? Absolutely critical? Every type of appointment? Shadowing isn't about getting exposure to every last nuance of the field; it's about seeing enough to start learning something useful and to help make a decision about whether the career is for you. It's hardly necessary to see "every" type of appointment. Hell, I'm in my third year and I can think of countless types of appointments I've never experienced (and never want to). You make it sound like by the time you're done shadowing you should be a fully competent doc ready to tackle any client interaction possible. Which is silly.


Right. And frankly, mastering some of the 'tougher' conversations with clients is sufficiently beyond a typical pre-vet shadower that they'd be better off sitting in on the more straightforward interactions and trying to pick up some tips there. You don't jump into calculus before learning basic arithmetic.

Very well put.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

Your vet obviously has a very poor understanding of how specialty clinics work, especially with a new shadower that they do not know.

And her insinuation that you should force yourself upon vets who don't want a shadower there (which is totally within their rights to require) is ignorant. If some random other vet told me I had to let his/her former shadow follow me everywhere when I didn't feel comfortable doing so, I'd be rather offended.

 

[epivetlove]

The best advice has already been given here by some very smart people, so I would really take to heart what has been said. I am a pre-vet that has been working/volunteering in the veterinary field since I was 15 (about to be 26). I have worked for or shadowed 12 different doctors so far and for a few that I shadowed, I was not allowed in the exam rooms for whatever reason and that was perfectly OK with me. It's already been said, but it bears repeating: as volunteers, we are often more of a hindrance than a help, so please be grateful for WHATEVER you get to do in a clinic. I believe it's all relevant. Yes, the client-doctor interaction is important to veterinary medicine and an important aspect to experience, but so is all the other stuff. As a shadow you have the potential to observe diagnosis, treatment, surgery, pharmacy, lab, radiology, hospitalization, necropsy, etc...and all of this at just a general private practice. Also, I have to respectfully disagree with Birddog. To me, a majority of the time it's about the animal. You may not always have your hands on the patient, but even when talking to a client--it's going to be about the animal. Being able to communicate competently or handle angry/depressed/scared/whatever people should just come from everyday life and being human. The doctor-y part comes later. So if a vet is happy to have you observe in the exam rooms, excellent! Otherwise, respect their decision and go find something else to do or wait patiently for them to finish. If you stick around long enough and show genuine interest and professionalism, you may end up getting to go into rooms after all. Just don't expect it.

Also, I feel it should be mentioned that even learning from and shadowing the technicians, managers, kennel help, etc. is just as helpful. You'll be working with these people too someday. It keeps everything in perspective. But that's just my $0.02. 😉

 

[sunshinevet]

Hey there,

So, this morning when I was shadowing a small animal vet at her private practice (again, my other personal vet...yeah my cat is a rock star 🙂), I asked her about the specialty vet shadowing situation.

The conversation went like this:

Me-"I shadowed at the --- Emergency Animal Hospital last week and it was fascinating. I will be there again next week, and my understanding is that I will not be permitted in the same room with the specialists when they are addressing their clients."

The vet--"What??! Why in the hell not? You need to see that."

Okay....so with that, I am exiting this discussion.

THANK YOU all again for your responses.

Is this vet in the conversation a GP? Have they ever worked in emergency? Because trust me, those conversations with clients are SO DIFFERENT and often difficult, personal and upsetting, and way more difficult to handle than GP consults. Not saying some GP consults aren't hard, but typically in emergency you are an unknown vet talking to clients you've never seen before about serious conditions involving a lot of money. The last thing you need to do is add another stressor (a shadow!)

These vets have no idea who you are, or if you are going to make their job harder than it already is. I don't understand why you have a problem with having to prove you aren't annoying first.

And TBH, not to be ageist, but in my humble experience, the older someone is, the more likely it seems that they think its acceptable to add their 2 cents of life experience and perspective into every situation imaginable. The young ones are way to scared to talk in consult (most of the time). I have seen vet student shadows ACTUALLY INTERRUPT THE VET to add their two cents - in front of the client. And every time its happened, its been someone "mature".

No offense to those mature, mature students out there, obviously 🙂

 

[remi4301]

I have posted advice in the 2018 thread this year (most recently I was hit with hostility for trying to help, which was seen as a misunderstanding with some nerves thrown in due to applications)

Are you talking about me behind my back?!?!? Hahaha just messing with ya.😀

For the OP, I can understand being frustrated at not being able to go in on appointments, but that's their policy. Nothing you can do about it. What I have learned through this whole pursuing being a vet dream, is that is is a lot about perseverance. They don't let you shadow in the room, ok, if it's that important to you, try to find somewhere else that will. By being in the room with a vet, you are an extension of them. There may have been some bad situations in the past that caused this policy. Who knows. Also, when a vet has to go into a room and discuss QOL or some serious disease, this can be a very emotionally vulnerable time for a client. It's the vets responsibility to respect that and place boundaries where needed. I worked as a vet tech for three years and there were many times I was not present in the room when a very serious discussion needed to happen. This was not a lack of trust in me, this was about respecting the client. On the other hand, we also had some clients that I had an excellent relationship with, and it was appropriate for me to be a part of that conversation, or the client would even talk with me about it while I was getting patient history.
If you want to know about how to communicate with clients in those difficult situations, ask a vet about how they do it. I bet you can learn a lot just by that. Remember, a vets responsibility is first to the animal, then owner, after that everything else (unless I'm told otherwise when I go to school, 😱)

 

[DVMDream]

Are you talking about me behind my back?!?!? Hahaha just messing with ya.😀

Well, it is kind of in the open, so not really behind your back... 😛😉

And I would have never remembered who it was, to be honest. Too many new people that come and go; it is hard to remember usernames and who says what. It was just a general statement trying to suggest that maybe that poster is also a bit under stress from applications, I don't think I really said that well though. 🙂

 

[tropictuco]

I was not allowed into the rooms where I shadowed, and it really didn't bother me. I did get to go on farm calls and witnessed client interaction that way. Also, sometimes the vets would bring clients to the back to look at X-rays or whatever and there was literally nowhere I could go to get away except outside, and I doubted the vets wanted me to do that (at least they never told me) so I would get to listen in on client interaction that way as well. I also felt as though listening to the way they made routine or even difficult phone calls was also a good way to build my client interaction skills, since a good deal of client interaction does take place over the phone. (Again, nowhere to go where I was NOT listening in on phone calls, and they did have private offices to make calls they wanted to be private).

But my clinic was awesome in that they were very outspoken about me doing or not doing certain things, and very easygoing about the rest. Eventually I figured out that if they didn't explicitly tell me not to do something (within reason!!!), it was probably fine to do. I wouldn't apply that to all clinics though.

Another wealth of information can be the techs. So let's say the tech was in the room when a client got angry at the vet. The tech will usually come out complaining about the client, and I can sympathetically say "Wow that's incredible...how did Dr. whosiwhatsit handle that?" And they're usually very honest about it. Sure it's not the same as witnessing it firsthand, but still helpful.

I still learned a ton and didn't feel cheated at all. I was and still am incredibly grateful for the opportunity and the chance they took on me. They made me feel so comfortable in all the other ways that I barely even missed going into the rooms.

 

[remi4301]

Well, it is kind of in the open, so not really behind your back... 😛😉

And I would have never remembered who it was, to be honest. Too many new people that come and go; it is hard to remember usernames and who says what. It was just a general statement trying to suggest that maybe that poster is also a bit under stress from applications, I don't think I really said that well though. 🙂

I was just playing, all in good fun 🙂 🙂

 

[DVMDream]

I was just playing, all in good fun 🙂 🙂

🙂🙂

Yup, we are friendly here.

 

[Escalla]

🙂🙂

Yup, we are friendly here.

Except for Emiloo.

 

[DVMDream]

Except for Emiloo.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

Except for Emiloo.

Yeah, what a bully.