I can't stop worrying about class rank.

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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auburnO5

auburnO5

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I am only a first year medical student, but I have basically convinced myself that if I am not in the upper 20% of my class that I am going to have to match in to primary care in the middle of nowhere. And I most likely will not be in the upper 20%, it's looking more like I'll be in the upper half.

Why am I suddenly caring about this? I have no idea. I normally don't care what other people's grades are.
 
Don't worry about preclinical grades, or other things you can't control, just do your best and the rest will fall into place.

auburnO5 said:
I am only a first year medical student, but I have basically convinced myself that if I am not in the upper 20% of my class that I am going to have to match in to primary care in the middle of nowhere. And I most likely will not be in the upper 20%, it's looking more like I'll be in the upper half.

Why am I suddenly caring about this? I have no idea. I normally don't care what other people's grades are.
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How about trying to find out if you even want to match into specialties that demand such a high class rank? (derm, plastics, n-surge, ent, ortho, rads, rad onc)

if you realize that you don't want to do any of those...maybe you'll feel less pressured. and even if you do...having a lower class rank isn't going to affect your application as much as other things.
 
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auburnO5 said:
I am only a first year medical student, but I have basically convinced myself that if I am not in the upper 20% of my class that I am going to have to match in to primary care in the middle of nowhere.
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Go check out the big picture view of match results, and especially the 2010 program director survey, on the NRMP's website.

Pretty sure you'll come to the conclusion that you don't need to be within the top fifth of the class, or necessarily even the top quarter or top third, to match into things above primary care in competitiveness.
 
Cool story, Hansel. Simple solution - stop worrying about it.
 
muhali3 said:
pretty sure all schools keep class rank. even if it is P/F, they usually keep track of the students behind-the-scenes.
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To my knowledge a few schools don't; Yale, Stanford, and Cleveland Clinic come to mind.
 
auburnO5 said:
I am only a first year medical student, but I have basically convinced myself that if I am not in the upper 20% of my class that I am going to have to match in to primary care in the middle of nowhere. And I most likely will not be in the upper 20%, it's looking more like I'll be in the upper half.

Why am I suddenly caring about this? I have no idea. I normally don't care what other people's grades are.
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I was under the impression preclinical grades didn't carry as much weight to program directors as let's say Step 1 score or clinical grades. There will be plenty of time to worry in the near future but for now I wouldn't sweat it.
 
What specialty do you want to do? Anesthesiology? EM? IM? these are not that competitive and a 220 step score is alright for these.
 
as long as you are performing at your best, having fun learning the material, and setting up a good foundation of study habits for year 2 + step 1 - --- i think you're fine. i'm not gunning for the top scores by any means but just keeping sane and doing my best.

dont look at other ppl, that'll drag u down faster than you can say go.
 
muhali3 said:
pretty sure all schools keep class rank. even if it is P/F, they usually keep track of the students behind-the-scenes.
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No. Not for MS1/2 here. I know, because I go to this school....lmao
 
UAAWolf said:
No. Not for MS1/2 here. I know, because I go to this school....lmao
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I'm guessing it's a Top 20 school then?...I guess they tend to do that since the prestige of the school cancels out the need for ranking students. Still weird though b/c I thought class rank info was necessary to be elected into AOA.
 
muhali3 said:
I'm guessing it's a Top 20 school then?...I guess they tend to do that since the prestige of the school cancels out the need for ranking students. Still weird though b/c I thought class rank info was necessary to be elected into AOA.
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I thought AOA only judged based upon how physically attractive the applicant is.
 
MilkmanAl said:
Not sure what this means...

Also, have fun during third year. 😉
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Well, I mean at lower-ranked schools it might be more necessary to distinguish students by their rank, while at highly-ranked schools class rank can be deceptive/unnecessary because all of the students tend to be really bright and intelligent, just due to the fact of them being accepted there. I really don't know if that's right...but I don't know how else to account for why it's mostly high-ranked schools that do it.
 
muhali3 said:
Well, I mean at lower-ranked schools it might be more necessary to distinguish students by their rank, while at highly-ranked schools class rank can be deceptive/unnecessary because all of the students tend to be really bright and intelligent, just due to the fact of them being accepted there. I really don't know if that's right...but I don't know how else to account for why it's mostly high-ranked schools that do it.
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It's because when you don't have grades, Step 1 becomes more important.
 
it always seemed to me that the unranked M1/2 grades were seen mostly at higher ranked schools because they are competing with each other for the most desired candidates. so once a few of them did it, many of the rest followed suit because it seemed that the market was demanding it.

AOA is different everywhere. some schools do a GPA, others do it just based on third year grades. some take the top sixth of the class automatically, others pick and choose from a larger list based on other factors. some don't have AOA at all 🙂

i don't know what to tell OP except to either start working harder or to stop caring.
 
Almost all schools that are true P/F have no class rank the first two years. Where i go to school it is the same - we get our % scores but at the end we only get a P/F and they don't keep track of our %'s besides that. 3rd year is how they determine AOA grades.
 
muhali3 said:
pretty sure all schools keep class rank. even if it is P/F, they usually keep track of the students behind-the-scenes.
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That's correct. All schools keep class rank stats, internally. When it comes time to put together your dean's letter, they will use language like "is a good candidate" for the bottom quartile, "great candidate" for the second to bottom quartile, "excellent candidate" for the second to top quartile, or such. Obviously this may not be exactly what your schools does, but you get the idea.

For the highest ranking students, obviously, they usually will include good language such as "top of the class" or "top 10". And then of course, there are the AOA people. The fact that your school even HAS AOA status is proof positive that they MUST be keeping a rank for each student in their system. And if you are gunner enough that you are concerned about AOA rank, just chill the eff out cuz you're only an M1. Don't forget that AOA is based on your second year score, and that your USMLE Step 1 score is a large portion (50% at my school) of your class rank in a lot of systems anyway.

They will NEVER say something like "this student was in the bottom 25% of his/her class".

How stupid would that be for your school. Your reputation = the school's reputation. If they don't help you secure a good residency, then they are hurting their own reputation as well.

Hope this helps or makes you feel better.
 
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bruinhd said:
Your reputation = the school's reputation. If they don't help you secure a good residency, then they are hurting their own reputation as well.
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Really good point 👍
 
bruinhd said:
That's correct. All schools keep class rank stats, internally. When it comes time to put together your dean's letter, they will use language like "is a good candidate" for the bottom quartile, "great candidate" for the second to bottom quartile, "excellent candidate" for the second to top quartile, or such. Obviously this may not be exactly what your schools does, but you get the idea.

For the highest ranking students, obviously, they usually will include good language such as "top of the class" or "top 10". And then of course, there are the AOA people. The fact that your school even HAS AOA status is proof positive that they MUST be keeping a rank for each student in their system. And if you are gunner enough that you are concerned about AOA rank, just chill the eff out cuz you're only an M1. Don't forget that AOA is based on your second year score, and that your USMLE Step 1 score is a large portion (50% at my school) of your class rank in a lot of systems anyway.

They will NEVER say something like "this student was in the bottom 25% of his/her class".

How stupid would that be for your school. Your reputation = the school's reputation. If they don't help you secure a good residency, then they are hurting their own reputation as well.

Hope this helps or makes you feel better.
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yeah that's all well and good, but don't you think that the people who read the Dean's Letter on the other end get pretty good at understanding what these euphemistic adjectives actually mean? i mean, it's not rocket science when you see a transcript of straight P's and damningly faint praise in the Letter. Your dean will certainly do the best s/he can, but people who read them a lot probably know the score.

inb4nooneusestheDean'sLetteranyway

so.... do all schools keep an internal class rank for M1/M2? i don't know. i do know that there are some who never use it if they do. Yale (hell they didn't even have exams for the longest time) is a good example. No AOA either.
 
bruinhd said:
And if you are gunner enough that you are concerned about AOA rank, just chill the eff out cuz you're only an M1. Don't forget that AOA is based on your second year score, and that your USMLE Step 1 score is a large portion (50% at my school) of your class rank in a lot of systems anyway.
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Not that I care about AOA (pretty sure I'm not going to get it for preclerkship grades), but the statement 'you're only an M1' is getting less and less valid as we get towards the end of the year. Technically, my class is already M2, and we only have 8-9 months of classroom learning left. And if you still haven't gotten a good system of studying down by now, you'll probably be hurting in second year courses.
 
gravitywave said:
yeah that's all well and good, but don't you think that the people who read the Dean's Letter on the other end get pretty good at understanding what these euphemistic adjectives actually mean? i mean, it's not rocket science when you see a transcript of straight P's and damningly faint praise in the Letter. Your dean will certainly do the best s/he can, but people who read them a lot probably know the score.

inb4nooneusestheDean'sLetteranyway

so.... do all schools keep an internal class rank for M1/M2? i don't know. i do know that there are some who never use it if they do. Yale (hell they didn't even have exams for the longest time) is a good example. No AOA either.
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Actually I was going to mention that Yale probably is one of those exceptions where they don't have a class rank. I heard that their exams now are take home with an honor system... Am I wrong? Does anyone else know about this?
 
Is it weird that at my school, they do letter grades for years one and two and P/F for years three and four?
 
mvenus929 said:
Not that I care about AOA (pretty sure I'm not going to get it for preclerkship grades), but the statement 'you're only an M1' is getting less and less valid as we get towards the end of the year. Technically, my class is already M2, and we only have 8-9 months of classroom learning left. And if you still haven't gotten a good system of studying down by now, you'll probably be hurting in second year courses.
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The statement "you're an M1" is definitely valid. If you think M2 is anything like M1, then just wait and see. I think anyone on this forum will tell you that M2 is more clinical than conceptual, and the expectations are much higher. Some people completely change their game after summer and move up in M2, some get really burned out and slide downwards in their rank. Most stay the same obviously, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, your Step 1 grade has more weight on your rank than any other test you take in M1, so when you get to M2, you should focus on that.
 
muhali3 said:
pretty sure all schools keep class rank. even if it is P/F, they usually keep track of the students behind-the-scenes.
Click to expand...


nope, we dont have a class rank the first two years. Its just P/F
 
bruinhd said:
The statement "you're an M1" is definitely valid. If you think M2 is anything like M1, then just wait and see. I think anyone on this forum will tell you that M2 is more clinical than conceptual, and the expectations are much higher. Some people completely change their game after summer and move up in M2, some get really burned out and slide downwards in their rank. Most stay the same obviously, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, your Step 1 grade has more weight on your rank than any other test you take in M1, so when you get to M2, you should focus on that.
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your step 1 means more than any grade you get in med school (assuming you aren't failing of course). A 250 on step 1 and a US senior means you will be competetive at top programs regardless of rank for the most part. Grades are very school dependent and residencies know this. That's why standardized tests matter more.

So, OP, I would just say to try your best now. M2 is def more clinical and a diff group of people just do better with that material than they do with M1 material (though both are tested on step 1). After you do well on step 1 then just try your best on clinical rotations realizing getting As is very difficult and programs know this and know it is school dependent. Getting research won't hurt. Also getting good letters is a plus. But this stuff is later on so you don't need to worry about that now. Just continue to do what you do. M1 and M2 grades in the long run really do not make a difference at all. Get a good step 1 score and your set, seriously. But beware... grades in M1 and M2 years will generally reflect your knowledge of step 1 material so the better you do now the better you will probably do on step 1.
 
bruinhd said:
The statement "you're an M1" is definitely valid. If you think M2 is anything like M1, then just wait and see. I think anyone on this forum will tell you that M2 is more clinical than conceptual, and the expectations are much higher. Some people completely change their game after summer and move up in M2, some get really burned out and slide downwards in their rank. Most stay the same obviously, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, your Step 1 grade has more weight on your rank than any other test you take in M1, so when you get to M2, you should focus on that.
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It depends on your school, which is my point. Schools that have a non-traditional curriculum are starting to change over from M1 to M2 at this time of year, so the later in the year you go, the less likely someone is actually an M1 at their school. People may change over the summer, but that doesn't mean that the types of courses offered are the same now as they were at the beginning of the year.

We've been doing clinical stuff for essentially the entire year, and we've had dozens of professors tell us that we think much more clinically even 5 months into our 'first year' than years past have at the end of their second year (we're the first year to go through a new curriculum). There is no definitive split between M1 and M2. So saying 'oh, you're still in first year' isn't really valid, because a lot of things we've done before the second years have, and certainly before the second years at other schools.

We also take Step 1 in January.
 
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Evergrey said:
To my knowledge a few schools don't; Yale, Stanford, and Cleveland Clinic come to mind.
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Things may have changed but as of a few years ago Yale did keep class rankings. You may be right about the others.
 
jwrigh69 said:
Things may have changed but as of a few years ago Yale did keep class rankings. You may be right about the others.
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Not for the first two years, AFAIK all their exams are options for the first two years, so class rank based on that would be weird.
 
I'm in my first year and I got a low pass in biochem in my first semester, (not that it matters, but I missed out on a passing grade by 0.25%). I'm going to make sure that is my last low pass, but how bad will this affect me for residency assuming I can get a decent board score down the road? I was thinking about a competitive specialty like rad onc.
 
LaCasta said:
I'm in my first year and I got a low pass in biochem in my first semester, (not that it matters, but I missed out on a passing grade by 0.25%). I'm going to make sure that is my last low pass, but how bad will this affect me for residency assuming I can get a decent board score down the road? I was thinking about a competitive specialty like rad onc.
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Sorry dude, one low pass? You're screwed, better wrap your head around rural family medicine.
 
Hold your horses dude...3rd year clerkship grades >>> pre-clinical. Both in the eyes of residency programs and potentially your GPA. At my school, 3rd year is weighted much more heavily than 1st/2nd.

Even if you weren't in the top half of your class, a bomb.com step1 score supersedes all that. Once you go neurotic you never come back...
 
Don't sleep on M1 grades before you find out your school's AOA selection criteria.

At my school just one B in one module/organ system during M1 precluded students from getting AOA.

If you care about AOA then 1st year grades can be critical.
 
Okay, you keep worrying about class rank, meanwhile other students will be studying and improving their class rank.
 
okay, I'm resurrecting this thread from the grave- I'm having trouble deciding what would be considered "better"... here's 2 hypothetical situations:

1. a student just passes his preclinicals and spends the rest of the time doing some research/some extracurriculars, but has a lower class rank. he does well on boards, but not stellar (think 220-230 range). gets a publication from research.

2. a student studies like a madman during preclinicals, no research/extracurriculars. gets honors during preclinicals, meaning higher class rank. does the same on boards, maybe a little better (220-235) but nothing jaw-dropping. not AOA though.

both shoot for a the same residency. which student is more competitive?
 
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bonsaipalmtree said:
okay, I'm resurrecting this thread from the grave- I'm having trouble deciding what would be considered "better"... here's 2 hypothetical situations:

1. a student just passes his preclinicals and spends the rest of the time doing some research/some extracurriculars, but has a lower class rank. he does well on boards, but not stellar (think 220-230 range). gets a publication from research.

2. a student studies like a madman during preclinicals, no research/extracurriculars. gets honors during preclinicals, meaning higher class rank. does the same on boards, maybe a little better (220-235) but nothing jaw-dropping. not AOA though.

both shoot for a the same residency. which student is more competitive?
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I can't imagine too much emphasis is put on class rank as there are some programs that are P/F/H. I think step scores and clinicals probably carry more weight.
 
It depends on the residency, but you are basically asking if research trumps preclinical grades since neither is AOA. Almost everything trumps preclinical grades, including research, so student 1 wins. Clinical grades do carry weight though.
 
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