I Don't Want to Sound Stupid But...

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Chillywilly

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How hard is it to land an AOA Derm Residency? I know there's roughly 27 spots, so it is really competitive, but is it next to impossible? I'm exploring options. I'm really into cosmetics and aesthetics. During my high school and undergrad years I really wanted to be a plastic surgeon.... but then I decided to not to surgery after seeing pictures of a face transplant on the internet (it grossed me out). So I thought Derm would be my next option. I'm also fine with gas, rad, EM as my back up plans, and I guess I'm fine with doing anything besides primary care (and I know my board scores will have a huge weight).

I just don't want to waste my time doing electives/research in Derm if it's extremely hard to match even AOA.
Any advice or insight would appreciated...especially from DOs that are in the Derm field. 🙂

Also I'll be attending Nova this fall. Only one person matched into Derm during 2009-2013, according to their website. Idk how most other schools compare.
 
It says that many doctors had to apply 2-3 times before they matched into derm. That might be fine and dandy... But what did they do in the meantime? I mean student loans are expected after you graduate so... How hard would it be to find a job ( that pays well) in the meantime before you apply to match again? Sounds risky to me
 
There were 45 AOA derm spots offered this year and there were 492 previous DO graduates, which is the only group eligible for AOA derm since it requires a traditional rotating internship. I guarantee you that most of those 492 are not applying for derm.

I only know of 2 people in my class that wanted to do derm. I don't know if they ended up matching or not. I know one failed matching acgme derm, but this person did not have competitive board scores, so it wasn't exactly shocking. The other person was gunning for AOA derm.

If you want something and you dont match, you do research, either paid or not paid, until you eventually match. I know a USMD who did research for 4 years before finally matching ortho.
 
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I'd suggest getting some more realistic backups if you're gonna gun for Derm.
 
Assuming he gets derm quality board scores he should be fine for any of those backups.
 
I mean im going to try to get the highest score possible but it's not like you need a 260 to match into gas or EM even as a DO right? Assuming you did AOA
 
Elevencents said:
I'd suggest getting some more realistic backups if you're gonna gun for Derm.
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Gas and rads are getting less and less competitive each year due to gas being a tight market with declining reimbursements and gas being overrun by CRNAs in addition to huge reimbursement hits. EM is moderately competitive, not highly competitive, and a fine backup for anyone trying to match derm. If he'd said, "My backups are neurosurg, urology, and optho," well, then he'd have a bit of a problem.
 
Chillywilly said:
I mean im going to try to get the highest score possible but it's not like you need a 260 to match into gas or EM even as a DO right? Assuming you did AOA
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The match is likely going to be unified by the time you and I are trying to match. There won't be AOA programs anymore.
 
Mad Jack said:
The match is likely going to be unified by the time you and I are trying to match. There won't be AOA programs anymore.
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Oh I heard that you still apply for both matches separately but they're all under one accreditation. No?
 
Chillywilly said:
Oh I heard that you still apply for both matches separately but they're all under one accreditation. No?
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there will be a unified match but it is not known when. Could be as early as 2016 or as late as 2021
 
Chillywilly said:
Damn that would suck if it was after 2018
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I highly doubt it will be coming anytime soon. So much has to happen before then, although I remain hopefully optimistic.

Accreditation may not even be until after 2018, let alone a combined match. DO med students and incoming students should not bank on this occurring during their time or let it effect their decision making process.
 
Elevencents said:
I'd suggest getting some more realistic backups if you're gonna gun for Derm.
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If she's going to "gun" for derm, then I'd bet her scores will be good enough to match anesthesia, EM, and even rad.
 
Lost Vagus said:
You think plastic surgery is gross? Flip through a derm book. It will give you nightmares
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True but if I got into derm I'd wanna specialize in cosmetics . You know.. For bored rich celebrities. I can dream cant I 😉

I'm half kidding
 
Chillywilly said:
I mean im going to try to get the highest score possible but it's not like you need a 260 to match into gas or EM even as a DO right? Assuming you did AOA
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Assuming you did AOA, then it's the COMLEX score you're thinking about and a 260 on the COMLEX is off-the-charts failing.
 
Chillywilly said:
I mean im to get the highest score possible but it's not like you need a 260 to match into gas or EM even as a DO right? Assuming you did AOA
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You need around a 230 to match somewhere for acgme EM, gas or radiology.

I think a 240 is achievable for most med students if they want it bad enough. Beyond that is kind of luck.
 
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cliquesh said:
You need around a 230 to match somewhere for acgme EM, gas or radiology.

I think a 240 is achievable for most med students if they want it bad enough. Beyond that is kind of luck.
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Really it heard there are a ton of really meh gas programs that take low scores mostly if not FMGs.
 
Chillywilly said:
It says that many doctors had to apply 2-3 times before they matched into derm. That might be fine and dandy... But what did they do in the meantime? I mean student loans are expected after you graduate so... How hard would it be to find a job ( that pays well) in the meantime before you apply to match again? Sounds risky to me
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most people will do a family med reaidency and derm is a second residency. Not uncommon for DO.
 
serenade said:
Really it heard there are a ton of really meh gas programs that take low scores mostly if not FMGs.
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Average board scores for anesthesia are 225 for USMD and 229 for independent applicants. I interviewed with some USMDs that we're in the 210's range. As a DO, I don't know if you could get in with anything lower than that. In 2011, of the 35 independent applicants with scores between 210 and 220, 15 of them matched. 9 of the 46 independent applicants with scores between 200 and 210 matched. There are not many "bad" Acgme anesthesia programs unlike some other fields.
 
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
most people will do a family med reaidency and derm is a second residency. Not uncommon for DO.
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A whole bunch of handshaking yo. But tbh, 6 years to do Derm doesn't sound sweet. You could specialize in allergy or something and less and do much better.
 
serenade said:
A whole bunch of handshaking yo. But tbh, 6 years to do Derm doesn't sound sweet. You could specialize in allergy or something and less and do much better.
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It's like saying we should have put our efforts into the GMAT and gone to a top 20 MBA and make seriously more bank than medicine. Some people like certain specialties.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
It's like saying we should have put our efforts into the GMAT and gone to a top 20 MBA and make seriously more bank than medicine. Some people like certain specialties.
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Youth is wasted on the youthful ;P. But yah, I'm sure some people genuinely like derm, I just think that most people do it because the life style is glorious. But eh, who knows.
 
Derm is actually pretty cool if you do it in an academic environment . You see a lot of interesting neoplasms and cutaneous manifestations of systemic disease. You also get to do a lot procedures and, if you want, you can pretty much be a surgeon and then there is always dermatopathology, which is cool. Its way more than just cosmetics, but oddly that's why most people go into derm.
 
serenade said:
Youth is wasted on the youthful ;P. But yah, I'm sure some people genuinely like derm, I just think that most people do it because the life style is glorious. But eh, who knows.
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If you want to go the cynical route, someone's eyes opened up after their first FM paycheck and thought "I need to go into derm..."
 
Is the average salary for derm physicians more than 250k/year? I really fail to understand the attractiveness of derm as a specialty other than the lifestyle you can get from also doing radiology, EM, psychiatry, PMR ect...and still making 200k+|year. If the average salary for derm is 300k+/year, that is a whole different story....
 
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serenade said:
A whole bunch of handshaking yo. But tbh, 6 years to do Derm doesn't sound sweet. You could specialize in allergy or something and less and do much better.
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It's really hard to run a good allergy-only practice. I know of several allergists in my area, and all of them have to fill their empty time slots with routine FM/IM primary care type stuff.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Is the average salary for derm physicians more than 250k/year? I really fail to understand the attractiveness of derm as a specialty other than the lifestyle you can get from also doing radiology, EM, psychiatry, PMR ect...and still making 200k+|year. If the average salary for derm is 300k+/year, that is a whole different story....
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Psychiatry isn't for everyone and plenty just aren't interested in it. PM&R likewise seems like at least for many a field they're not exactly interested in or one that stimulates them.

But basically in the end Derm from my experience has some perks. None of your patients are dying, you can do lite surgery and heavy surgery, and for the most part your diagnostic work involves doing a biopsy and sending it in for the lab. Likewise my dermatologist is packed and also owns a med spa that requires you to go see a dermatologist to go to. I mean, it just seems like a really nice 9-4 job with a lot of potential to make cash on the side. Compared to Psych or EM or PMR you don't see anywhere near that extra icing.
 
serenade said:
Psychiatry isn't for everyone and plenty just aren't interested in it. PM&R likewise seems like at least for many a field they're not exactly interested in or one that stimulates them.

But basically in the end Derm from my experience has some perks. None of your patients are dying, you can do lite surgery and heavy surgery, and for the most part your diagnostic work involves doing a biopsy and sending it in for the lab. Likewise my dermatologist is packed and also owns a med spa that requires you to go see a dermatologist to go to. I mean, it just seems like a really nice 9-4 job with a lot of potential to make cash on the side. Compared to Psych or EM or PMR you don't see anywhere near that extra icing.
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What is the average salary?
 
BestDoctorEver said:
What is the average salary?
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Probably about 225-250 depending on the area and your specialty. However, I wouldn't be surprised if you could make up to double that even without a Moh's fellowship. This compared to say PM&R's 200k, and Psych's ~180k ( this likewise is dependent on area and how much you want to work and probably can increase enormously with fellowship) it's a little bit more lucrative.
 
DrEnderW said:
I highly doubt it will be coming anytime soon. So much has to happen before then, although I remain hopefully optimistic.

Accreditation may not even be until after 2018, let alone a combined match. DO med students and incoming students should not bank on this occurring during their time or let it effect their decision making process.
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It will be interesting to see how many programs receive acgme accred before the 2020 deadline...
 
Elisabeth Kate said:
If she's going to "gun" for derm, then I'd bet her scores will be good enough to match anesthesia, EM, and even rad.
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Well obviously, but just because you "want" derm doesn't all of a sudden mean you are going to get competitive scores. Some people I'm sure shoot for derm, score 215, and then immediately realize that it's not happening.
 
Elevencents said:
Well obviously, but just because you "want" derm doesn't all of a sudden mean you are going to get competitive scores. Some people I'm sure shoot for derm, score 215, and then immediately realize that it's not happening.
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Considering she doesn't need to think about backups until AFTER her scores come in, I think her backups for now are just fine. It's not like she's applying now.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Is the average salary for derm physicians more than 250k/year? I really fail to understand the attractiveness of derm as a specialty other than the lifestyle you can get from also doing radiology, EM, psychiatry, PMR ect...and still making 200k+|year. If the average salary for derm is 300k+/year, that is a whole different story....
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It's about 300k to 400k. Only the people in academia get paid less than that.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Oh boy! Now I see why it is so competitive... 36-40/hrs/wk and you make 300k+/year!
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I think one issue that gets overlooked is that while dermatologists in PP keep 9-5 clinic hours, most will see anywhere from 5 to 7 or even 8 patients an hour. If you aren't super efficient and a fast typer, that's a hell of a lot of charts that need to be finished at the end of the day.
 
Chillywilly said:
I can imagine they would have a huge sense of entitlement and immediacy
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Having worked as a medical assistant for a while, income sort of has a positive and negative outcome on patients. Sure some rich people do have that sense of entitlement. But in the end a lot tended to be pretty normal. On the other side of the coin the problem you get with people in extreme poverty (the place I worked took a lot of pro-bono cases) is that typically because they have no money they wont go to the doctors... for anything... so when they finally come in they will come in with a lot of problems at once and usually those problems will be really, really bad/advanced. Also contrary to what you would think, a lot tended to actually be more demanding because they felt that they were not being adequately heard and many lacked family/support systems to help them through whatever they were going through, which I think made them more scared, which typically makes them more aggressive towards treatment. They are also frustrating because they either cant/wont follow up or follow through with treatment plans, so basically they come in, expect you to fix them on the spot.

So while I have no interest in derm. I can absolutely understand the allure of working with their client base.
 
Derm is my #1 choice, but I talked to Goro, and my interviewer at one school, and they both said you can apply for residencies in two different fields. For example, I can apply to a Derm residency program AND EM (for example). That way if I don't get into Derm, I won't be totally screwed assuming I'm competitive for EM.

They said that the only downside in applying to two matches is that the medical community is small, and program directors are likely to know other program directors and your name might come up...which can be awkward and dishonest.

I know I'm going to have to work hard no matter what. I guess I won't truly know what I want to zero in on until my board scores are final.
 
I really don't think that two program director are going to genuinely sit down and randomly talk about your file and how you applied Derm to one program and EM to another. I think it is further compounded if you're applying ACGME EM and AOA Derm.
 
Also, applying to 2 different programs means obtaining two sets of LOR's. Not sure how feasible that is with only a few months of auditions. Just FYI, since I've considered the double application idea myself.
 
Elevencents said:
Also, applying to 2 different programs means obtaining two sets of LOR's. Not sure how feasible that is with only a few months of auditions. Just FYI, since I've considered the double application idea myself.
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Also, wouldn't you need two different personal statements in your ERAS application?
 
Chillywilly said:
Also, wouldn't you need two different personal statements in your ERAS application?
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Yep, you'll need two of everything. People apply to multiple specialities all the time, so it's doable, but obviously more work.
 
Elevencents said:
Also, applying to 2 different programs means obtaining two sets of LOR's. Not sure how feasible that is with only a few months of auditions. Just FYI, since I've considered the double application idea myself.
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This seems to be the issue here.
 
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