I talked to Ross, and I'm quite skeptical about their MCAT and USMLE metrics

[zut212]

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The other day, I called up Ross University to find out what their average entrant scores were. According to one Barbara whom I spoke with, students entering in January or May, their scores were "at least 24-26", and for students entering September, their scores "were at least 28". NOTE: She didn't precisely answer my question. I asked her what was the AVERAGE, and she used phrases like "at least." What Barbara implied is that the AVERAGE is higher than 28 for entrants in September because nobody has scored less than a 28 ("at least").

Finally, she also claims that their pass rates for USMLE was 94%, and the national average is 96%. I was quite surprised about this.

Finally, for SGU, I talked to a young lady there, she said that the average MCAT score was 27-28, but she didn't clarify for which semester. I believe that their pass rates for USMLE is similar to Ross'.

What do you make of all this?

 

[JonathanMD]

The other day, I called up Ross University to find out what their average entrant scores were. According to one Barbara whom I spoke with, students entering in January or May, their scores were "at least 24-26", and for students entering September, their scores "were at least 28". NOTE: She didn't precisely answer my question. I asked her what was the AVERAGE, and she used phrases like "at least." What Barbara implied is that the AVERAGE is higher than 28 for entrants in September because nobody has scored less than a 28 ("at least").

Finally, she also claims that their pass rates for USMLE was 94%, and the national average is 96%. I was quite surprised about this.

Finally, for SGU, I talked to a young lady there, she said that the average MCAT score was 27-28, but she didn't clarify for which semester. I believe that their pass rates for USMLE is similar to Ross'.

What do you make of all this?

The 94% pass rate for Ross is true.

What they're not telling you that many students fail out before they can even take the Step. But the students that are still around to take the step do very well on it.

(Also, wrong forum.)

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Of course Ross's USMLE percent-pass is that high. It tends to go up when you refuse to certify registration letters for students you don't think will pass, thus artificially raising your USMLE pass rate and scamming another class of desperate students.

We had a Ross rep come to my undergrad years ago, and he got really, really flustered when a student called him out on their dishonesty in USMLE pass rates. He couldn't offer an explanation and simply went on to another question. That's pretty telling if you ask me.

 

[JonathanMD]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious what they're doing.

 

[Doc013]

Sad. Have you looked into UAG in Mexico? You do have to learn Spanish, but I've met some of their grads and they were successful on the boards and subsequently matched into US residency programs.

 

[BigRedder]

Lower tier schools like Ross and SGU are like subprime mortgages. They are ideal for people who, due to mistakes made in the past, are not eligible for a more mainstream product. They provide a second chance, albeit at higher cost. If you get your act together, and those past mistakes stay in the past, then you can do just fine. However, if you don't, they have every reason to not give you yet another chance.

 

[PteFabulous]

I don't believe that the lowest MCAT score to get in for September was a 28, but at the same time Ross has started cutting down on class sizes and it is becoming more competitive to get in here. Even before when they accepted 600 students a semester there were still about a 1000 they rejected (I could be wrong about this number but I'm pretty sure that what I heard from staff).

The other posters already mentioned why the USMLE pass rates are good, I just don't understand why people have such a hard time believing that its that high.

 

[dragonfly99]

If you can get a 28 on the MCAT don't go to a Caribbean school. Go to one of the better US DO schools (not a brand new one, one that has a track record). Avg. score at Western U in southern CA is 28 I think.
Ross is smart to cut down class sizes...I think it would be difficult if not impossible to teach 600 med students/year. Even US schools with their own affiliated teaching hospitals can struggle when they get to 120-200 students/year. I'm having a hard time swallowing avg MCAT of 28 for Ross but I could be wrong.

 

[Gfliptastic]

This is barely worth the "scrutinize this 'controversy'" tone.

Since so much emphasis is placed on Board passing rates, it's a FACT that US allopathic/osteopathic schools also "prune" their Board sitters. I know 1st hand of people at allopathic US schools who weren't doing too well academically before they were due to take Step 1. And they were strongly encouraged by the administration to have remedial classes and tutors before they sat. It's hardly an all encompassing entire class takes it at some US med schools. They tweak their 1st time taker %ages also.

It's fine to be skeptical. And it would be naive to go through life w/o skepticism. But to attach the insidious nature of tweaking 1st time taker %ages to just Ross is WRONG. Many institutions (even in the US) do it!!

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

This is barely worth the "scrutinize this 'controversy'" tone.

Since so much emphasis is placed on Board passing rates, it's a FACT that US allopathic/osteopathic schools also "prune" their Board sitters. I know 1st hand of people at allopathic US schools who weren't doing too well academically before they were due to take Step 1. And they were strongly encouraged by the administration to have remedial classes and tutors before they sat. It's hardly an all encompassing entire class takes it at some US med schools. They tweak their 1st time taker %ages also.

It's fine to be skeptical. And it would be naive to go through life w/o skepticism. But to attach the insidious nature of tweaking 1st time taker %ages to just Ross is WRONG. Many institutions (even in the US) do it!!

The policy at nearly every US allopathic school is that they will only prevent you from taking the Step 1 if you fail a course. You would then need to either remediate the course and then take the Step 1, or repeat second year (in the case that more than 1 course was failed or no remediation is available for that course).

I have never heard of a US allo school telling a passing student they cannot take the Step 1. I have heard of this happening (to many, many people) at Ross.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Since so much emphasis is placed on Board passing rates, it's a FACT that US allopathic/osteopathic schools also "prune" their Board sitters. I know 1st hand of people at allopathic US schools who weren't doing too well academically before they were due to take Step 1. And they were strongly encouraged by the administration to have remedial classes and tutors before they sat. It's hardly an all encompassing entire class takes it at some US med schools. They tweak their 1st time taker %ages also.

Being encouraged to go through a review course that the school pays for and being kept from taking step 1 are two very, very different things. One is supportive and helps you do well and is how a school should act- identify weaker students and get them to the point where they can succeed. The other is the school basically giving up on you and trying to save face at the same time.

It's fine to be skeptical. And it would be naive to go through life w/o skepticism. But to attach the insidious nature of tweaking 1st time taker %ages to just Ross is WRONG. Many institutions (even in the US) do it!!

How about some proof about schools in the US doing this. I am a US grad and I can tell you that my school ( which was by no means Harvard) did not tweak their numbers and did not keep people from taking step 1.

 

[J ROD]

If their averages are that high, then why not retake the MCAT and get into a US MD school and especially US DO.....I think those numbers are inflated like alot of numbes coming out of the islands...

everytime I talked to one of their reps I felt like I was talking to a used car salesman trying to give me a "deal"...

The islands are a nice place to visit but not go to med school.....I would exhaust ALL US possibilities....first and foremost

then think REAL hard about going down there and getting into a huge debt with a decent chance of not getting a degree out of it.

 

[dragonfly99]

Ross has been up to the same game for years. I was called by one of their reps years ago after I took the MCAT. Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I'm not saying nobody should go there, but it should be a last resort going to med school down there. And I sure as heck wouldn't be down there if I were you if you do have a 28 MCAT...I think you could probably get yourself some kind of US DO/MD spot within a couple of years if you have that score. Some DO school would take you for sure, unless your GPA is truly awful and nonfixable.

I went to a US school and I've never ever know my school to keep someone from taking the Step 1. Also, as mentioned above, if there are US schools that do that to occasional students, it is probably to have them remediate and THEN take the boards, not to throw them out unless perhaps they had multiple failed classes, etc. Even then the vast majority of US schools (allopathic at least, no personal knowledge of DO ones) will do EVERYTHING they can to get a student through once he/she is accepted. I think that statistics are kept in terms of how many of their students graduate, and they don't want to look bad. Also, most of the schools do sincerely care, at least on some level, how the students do and want them to succeed. Some of the Carib ones don't care as much...they are in this to make money and they are businesses.

 

[physics junkie]

I wouldn't really care what their MCAT figures are(I got a 34Q and go to Ross btw). They are definitely over a 25 average though...the new classes are very small compared to what was seen last year.

Some people fail out of Ross. Most who leave though choose to quit. Ross lets you repeat a semester if you fail up to 2 classes and on a case-to-case basis if you fail >2 classes. You can repeat 2 semesters at Ross in the first 5 semesters(beyond that is clinical). Most people who quit do so after failing 1st semester.

The people who decry Ross for 'trimming the herd' make it seem that Ross fails qualified students. That isn't true--if you fail a class you have a pretty weak grasp of the material.

In regards to the USMLE...

Ross requires all students pass the NBME comprehensive exam before being allowed to sit for the step1. Passing this exam is equivalent to passing the step1. There is a 60-70% first time pass rate on this exam and it's traditionally been administered 2 weeks after the end of 4th semester. They have now extended the study time to 3 weeks and I'll post what the pass rate is when we find out who passed on friday. 😀 If you fail the comp you can take it for a second time 5 weeks after the end of 5th semester.

If you fail it two times you can take a damn long time to study for it the third and final time. I know a student who took 5 months to study for it the 3rd time. If you fail it on the third try you are kicked out of Ross.

CN: No US school would give you 3 tries and months of preparation time to study for the step1.

 

[physics junkie]

Ross has been up to the same game for years. I was called by one of their reps years ago after I took the MCAT. Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I'm not saying nobody should go there, but it should be a last resort going to med school down there. And I sure as heck wouldn't be down there if I were you if you do have a 28 MCAT...I think you could probably get yourself some kind of US DO/MD spot within a couple of years if you have that score. Some DO school would take you for sure, unless your GPA is truly awful and nonfixable.

I went to a US school and I've never ever know my school to keep someone from taking the Step 1. Also, as mentioned above, if there are US schools that do that to occasional students, it is probably to have them remediate and THEN take the boards, not to throw them out unless perhaps they had multiple failed classes, etc. Even then the vast majority of US schools (allopathic at least, no personal knowledge of DO ones) will do EVERYTHING they can to get a student through once he/she is accepted. I think that statistics are kept in terms of how many of their students graduate, and they don't want to look bad. Also, most of the schools do sincerely care, at least on some level, how the students do and want them to succeed. Some of the Carib ones don't care as much...they are in this to make money and they are businesses.

Aside from the fact that I obviously disagree with most of what you wrote the bolded part is not particularly true. Ross professors and the Ross faculty(including the academic success dept. that helps failing students) care a lot about the students. No one who profits from the "business side" of Ross is anywhere near the campus(It's certainly not the professors and the faculty that are profiting. )

There is a lot of help available to at-risk students. K.W. in academic success is big on metrics and makes sure that the programs in place are actually helping students succeed. I know this because he grilled the student TA's(one of whom was me) over the data showing that peer tutoring was not effective. There are also faculty members whose job it is to acquire proper testing conditions for those with disabilities(I'm friends with the guy and can tell you he works hard).

 

[medflava]

I have a relative who went to ROSS, she failed the first time, she got a 180 out of 188...and remember she went to ROSS....they said ROSS is harder than regular medical schools.

It is mad crazy, and keep in mind they are a for-profit business.

 

[Richardh]

work hard on your own accord and you will be fine 🙂

 

[medflava]

work hard on your own accord and you will be fine 🙂

i couldn't agree more

 

[dragonfly99]

work hard on your own accord and you will be fine 🙂

It would be nice if life were so simple, but unfortunately it sometimes is not. That doesn't mean that some people don't succeed coming from Caribbean schools, but I think that it is very important for people who are thinking of going down there to be well informed and to realize that hard work will not always guarantee success for everyone. Sometimes life is not fair. Let the buyer beware...

 

[zut212]

If their averages are that high, then why not retake the MCAT and get into a US MD school and especially US DO.....I think those numbers are inflated like alot of numbes coming out of the islands...

everytime I talked to one of their reps I felt like I was talking to a used car salesman trying to give me a "deal"...

The islands are a nice place to visit but not go to med school.....I would exhaust ALL US possibilities....first and foremost

then think REAL hard about going down there and getting into a huge debt with a decent chance of not getting a degree out of it.

You've got a great point. I'd love to attend an american MD program, but I made only a 27P on my MCAT. Honestly, I'm 100% sure that I can do better next time I take my MCAT, if I were to do so January 29th. I aim for a 28-29. This coupled with my 3.2 undergrad in biomedical eng. and 3.45 in my MS program also in biomed won't take me far.

A Do program is great, but it's not for me.

You're right: Their reps seems just like used-car salesmans. They're very shady and, uh....coked-up, it seems.

 

[NurWollen]

A Do program is great, but it's not for me.

Why not?

 

[IamSuperDoctor]

dont be too quick to jump on the d.o bandwagon.

 

[dragonfly99]

zut212,
how about retake MCAT get 30+, apply to some of the better US DO schools, or Irish medical school and/or St George? Or you could do a postbac to raise your GPA. If you only took MCAT once, it may be worth it to retake before you bail for the Caribbean. Also a 27 MCAT and lower GPA may not be the kiss of death for getting into US allopathic schools...it would make it quite hard unless you are underrepresented minority, though. It depends on which state you live in. If it's Arkansas or something, or Texas or Florida with many med schools, there might be a way you could slip in as an in-state resident, if you are lucky.

 

[physics junkie]

You're right: Their reps seems just like used-car salesmans. They're very shady and, uh....coked-up, it seems.

The reps have absolutely nothing to do with Ross(they are DeVry corporate employees) and have likely never even visited the island.

 

[dlinfiniti]

The reps have absolutely nothing to do with Ross(they are DeVry corporate employees) and have likely never even visited the island.

thats not true
the rep for th SF bay area is also an adjunct biochem instructor on the island

 

[physics junkie]

thats not true
the rep for th SF bay area is also an adjunct biochem instructor on the island

No ****? I can't imagine Ross wanting to showcase anyone in the biochem department.

 

[PassionReborn]

No ****? I can't imagine Ross wanting to showcase anyone in the biochem department.

Yeh, the bio-chem lecture he gave in the first semester was more like, " Biochem is spelled as B I O C H E M.

 

[CaringFully]

Being encouraged to go through a review course that the school pays for and being kept from taking step 1 are two very, very different things. One is supportive and helps you do well and is how a school should act- identify weaker students and get them to the point where they can succeed. The other is the school basically giving up on you and trying to save face at the same time.




How about some proof about schools in the US doing this. I am a US grad and I can tell you that my school ( which was by no means Harvard) did not tweak their numbers and did not keep people from taking step 1.

"Being encouraged to go through a review course that the school pays for and being kept from taking step 1 are two very, very different things."
Yes, that is true. Keep in mind that the school that is paying for the review course is also doing it because if the students needing the help don't pass, it will look bad on them - just like letting students who they don't think can pass the Step 1 take it and fail will look bad on a Carib school.

One is supportive and helps you do well and is how a school should act- identify weaker students and get them to the point where they can succeed.
Many students similar to these "weaker students" in the same applicant pool never got the chance at the US schools. The US schools sure as hell identified the weaker students, not to get them to a point where they can succeed, but to weed them out before they even started.
The other is the school basically giving up on you and trying to save face at the same time."
...The US schools gave up on many students during the application cycle, never giving some the chance to begin...they were "saving face" from the beginning...

 

[mmmcdowe]

"Being encouraged to go through a review course that the school pays for and being kept from taking step 1 are two very, very different things."
Yes, that is true. Keep in mind that the school that is paying for the review course is also doing it because if the students needing the help don't pass, it will look bad on them - just like letting students who they don't think can pass the Step 1 take it and fail will look bad on a Carib school.

One is supportive and helps you do well and is how a school should act- identify weaker students and get them to the point where they can succeed.Many students similar to these "weaker students" in the same applicant pool never got the chance at the US schools. The US schools sure as hell identified the weaker students, not to get them to a point where they can succeed, but to weed them out before they even started.
The other is the school basically giving up on you and trying to save face at the same time."
...The US schools gave up on many students during the application cycle, never giving some the chance to begin...they were "saving face" from the beginning...

Oh please, you don't see a difference between being for profit and accepting a student only to drop them like a rock after they've given you a bunch of money versus a nonprofit medical school rejecting a student because they legitimately don't think that they are going to make it? Unless you think ~100-150 dollars to apply is the ethical equivalent of 2 years of medical education in the Caribbean. If anything, US med schools are saving the face of such applicants by not letting them financially ruin themselves and preventing them from having to live with both debt and the knowledge of being a wash out.