If AOA cost you 20 more hours of studying a week, would you go for it?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
A lot of things in life are those for which you think it's so important that you would sacrifice anything you have now to get it, then 10 years later, looking in retrospect and you go"why?"

AOA is one of those things.
 
The Angriest Bird said:
A lot of things in life are those for which you think it's so important that you would sacrifice anything you have now to get it, then 10 years later, looking in retrospect and you go"why?"

AOA is one of those things.
Click to expand...

Then again, if it helps you match into, say, Derm or Ophtho, some would argue that busting your ass for 3-4 years so that 10 years later you'd be loving life is entirely worth it.

Just playing Devil's Advocate.
 
#1 Grades alone don't matter. you can get all Hs, but you better have research and volunteering. start pretending you care about poor and sick people and sign on to do as much research as you can, even though 90% of the so called research med students do is esentially just filler and slave labor for academics.

#2 Start ass kissing the gunners in the class above you and find the faculty involved with aoa and start start sucking them off too. aoa selection is fairly political.

Do both and you might get aoa. Some kids with great grades and solid resumes get screwed over because they forgot about #2.
 
SGuttenberg said:
#1 Grades alone don't matter. you can get all Hs, but you better have research and volunteering. start pretending you care about poor and sick people and sign on to do as much research as you can, even though 90% of the so called research med students do is esentially just filler and slave labor for academics.

#2 Start ass kissing the gunners in the class above you and find the faculty involved with aoa and start start sucking them off too. aoa selection is fairly political.

Do both and you might get aoa. Some kids with great grades and solid resumes get screwed over because they forgot about #2.
Click to expand...


Although the selection criteria for AOA varies quite a bit from school to school, this actually summarizes my school almost perfectly. I know at some institutions, grades/Step I are used as virtually the only criteria for selection, whereas at other schools there's a strong element of service/leadership taken into account, and nomination/selection is very political.

Stupid, but true.
 
So at your schools, is it the deans or specific faculty members that make the choices for AOA?
 
You could look at the other extreme...at my school, junior AOA is based ONLY on step 1 scores, nothing else. You just have to be in top 50% of class at end of M2 to be eligible.
 
AlexMorph said:
You could look at the other extreme...at my school, junior AOA is based ONLY on step 1 scores, nothing else. You just have to be in top 50% of class at end of M2 to be eligible.
Click to expand...


atleast that's a genuine meritocracy. I envy you. I wish more residencies realized how flawed and un-uniform a metric AOA status is and wouldn't give it as much importance.
 
SGuttenberg said:
atleast that's a genuine meritocracy. I envy you. I wish more residencies realized how flawed and un-uniform a metric AOA status is and wouldn't give it as much importance.
Click to expand...
Then how do you feel about the M3 evaluation process that, a lot of the times, simply comes down to who the evaluator likes and doesn't like and has little to do with knowledge and capability?
 
AlexMorph said:
Then how do you feel about the M3 evaluation process that, a lot of the times, simply comes down to who the evaluator likes and doesn't like and has little to do with knowledge and capability?
Click to expand...

Oh boy don't get me started on M3 grading. It truely is an idiotic and unbalanced system and in my opinion the single biggest problem with medical education in the US.
 
Nooooooo...
 
Jack is Back said:
If you feel like you could honor everything but lose some balance, would it be worth it?
Click to expand...

I got it while still being one of the most social people at my school so I don't think losing balance is required. I felt pretty balanced. I didn't sacrifice anything more than a typical med student. I aimed to do well because I started off med school interested in ortho and I wanted to return to Cali. AOA was a fortunate by-product of the drive to match into a competitive specialty on the west coast.

20 hrs extra a week seems like overkill. If I was told at the beginning of 1st year that I would be studying hard to do well in med school and that I needed an extra 20 hours a week on top of that I probably would have said no.

I'm glad the AOA process at my school wasn't political. It worked out perfectly where those of us who honored everything in M1 and M2 got it so nobody got "screwed"

Some may think AOA is overrated but I've had experiences with attendings when talking about the app process where the first question is "What is your Step 1?" and the 2nd is "Are you AOA?"
 
2012mdc said:
Some may think AOA is overrated but I've had experiences with attendings when talking about the app process where the first question is "What is your Step 1?" and the 2nd is "Are you AOA?"
Click to expand...

I've had this experience several times as well. Probably moreso because I'm also going into a very competitive field. That said, for those who may have been formally considered but passed over in selection, at least at our school our MSPE makes it clear that you were at least good enough to be considered. A friend of mine who was considered but not selected met with our derm PD who said 'well you were at least considered right? That's very good and should help.'

Edit: sorry for overusing 'considered'
 
2012mdc said:
I got it while still being one of the most social people at my school so I don't think losing balance is required. I felt pretty balanced. I didn't sacrifice anything more than a typical med student. I aimed to do well because I started off med school interested in ortho and I wanted to return to Cali. AOA was a fortunate by-product of the drive to match into a competitive specialty on the west coast.

20 hrs extra a week seems like overkill. If I was told at the beginning of 1st year that I would be studying hard to do well in med school and that I needed an extra 20 hours a week on top of that I probably would have said no.

I'm glad the AOA process at my school wasn't political. It worked out perfectly where those of us who honored everything in M1 and M2 got it so nobody got "screwed"

Some may think AOA is overrated but I've had experiences with attendings when talking about the app process where the first question is "What is your Step 1?" and the 2nd is "Are you AOA?"
Click to expand...

I think my issue is that I have moderate intelligence, and therefore I think I would have to dedicate much more time/effort than the gifted top 25% of the class. I FEEL like I have a shot but I would really have to sacrifice.

I also am interested in a competitive surgical specialty.
 
SGuttenberg said:
Oh boy don't get me started on M3 grading. It truely is an idiotic and unbalanced system and in my opinion the single biggest problem with medical education in the US.
Click to expand...

At first I thought medical school was 99% objective.

I'm starting to see the politics everyday.
 
Jack is Back said:
I think my issue is that I have moderate intelligence, and therefore I think I would have to dedicate much more time/effort than the gifted top 25% of the class. I FEEL like I have a shot but I would really have to sacrifice.

I also am interested in a competitive surgical specialty.
Click to expand...

Don't sell yourself short. I did that in college and let it affect my grades.

I entered med school with pretty average credentials. 3.2 UG GPA (science GPA ~3.0) from a top 10 school, 33 MCAT. Certainly nothing spectacular.

I have busted my butt in med school but most med students do. I found it key to really maximize my studying efficiency through trial and error. Another big thing was to take breaks when necessary to avoid burnout and reach your peak at exam time.

Med school is a whole new ballgame from college and make a gameplan that works for you and attack it. It's not difficult conceptually, it's difficult with the wealth of material, figuring out what's important, and not getting burnt out.
 
2012mdc said:
I got it while still being one of the most social people at my school so I don't think losing balance is required. I felt pretty balanced. I didn't sacrifice anything more than a typical med student. I aimed to do well because I started off med school interested in ortho and I wanted to return to Cali. AOA was a fortunate by-product of the drive to match into a competitive specialty on the west coast.

20 hrs extra a week seems like overkill. If I was told at the beginning of 1st year that I would be studying hard to do well in med school and that I needed an extra 20 hours a week on top of that I probably would have said no.
Click to expand...

2012mdc said:
I have busted my butt in med school
Click to expand...

it sounds to me like you put in the 20 extra hours a week but you just don't realize it because you think everyone else was studying a comparable amount
 
Yeah, not worth it.

My school, the top 7-8 people at the end of second year get AOA. I'm no where near them, and nothing I do at this point is going to get me up to that level.

After 3rd year, it's based on nominations from classmates, though you do have to be in the top like 25% to be eligible.
 
mvenus929 said:
Yeah, not worth it.

My school, the top 7-8 people at the end of second year get AOA. I'm no where near them, and nothing I do at this point is going to get me up to that level.

After 3rd year, it's based on nominations from classmates, though you do have to be in the top like 25% to be eligible.
Click to expand...
what do they look at for senior aoa?
 
skinMD said:
it sounds to me like you put in the 20 extra hours a week but you just don't realize it because you think everyone else was studying a comparable amount
Click to expand...

I'm pretty confident in saying that I did not study as hard as many of my classmates.

I had room for an extra 20 hours a week but that would have caused me to lose balance and go crazy. That's why I shake my head at posters who say they are studying 6 hours a day from the jump in 1st year.

People generally work hard in medical school. My point was that I didn't feel like I went above and beyond the average medical student and sacrifice health, friendships, fun etc more than anyone else. I've been one of the social chairs since M1 and besides local stuff I've been able to go places like Tahoe, Vegas, Miami, Puerto Rico. I didn't lose balance
 
2012mdc said:
I'm pretty confident in saying that I did not study as hard as many of my classmates.

I had room for an extra 20 hours a week but that would have caused me to lose balance and go crazy. That's why I shake my head at posters who say they are studying 6 hours a day from the jump in 1st year.

People generally work hard in medical school. My point was that I didn't feel like I went above and beyond the average medical student and sacrifice health, friendships, fun etc more than anyone else. I've been one of the social chairs since M1 and besides local stuff I've been able to go places like Tahoe, Vegas, Miami, Puerto Rico. I didn't lose balance
Click to expand...

I guess that is my point also. I think I would have to study 6+ hrs a day to do really well. Some people are smarter and can do it faster I guess.

Maybe I can learn some better efficiency...
 
2012mdc said:
I'm pretty confident in saying that I did not study as hard as many of my classmates.

I had room for an extra 20 hours a week but that would have caused me to lose balance and go crazy. That's why I shake my head at posters who say they are studying 6 hours a day from the jump in 1st year.

People generally work hard in medical school. My point was that I didn't feel like I went above and beyond the average medical student and sacrifice health, friendships, fun etc more than anyone else. I've been one of the social chairs since M1 and besides local stuff I've been able to go places like Tahoe, Vegas, Miami, Puerto Rico. I didn't lose balance
Click to expand...

Crap, 6 hrs/day is too much? I only started 2 weeks ago and I feel like I'm constantly behind! Hopefully, as the next few weeks go on, I can fall into a study rhythm that works for me and not spend as much time studying as I do now.
 
Last edited:
Kaushik said:
Crap, 6 hrs/day is too much? I only started 2 weeks ago and I feel like I'm constantly behind! Hopefully, as the next few weeks go on, I can fall into a study rhythm that works for me and not spend as much time studying as I do now.
Click to expand...

Don't fall into the trap of worrying about how much other people study, especially early on when you're still adapting. Study as much as you need to in order to do as well as you want, and try to maximize your efficiency as you go.

I will say I ended up studying more than the average medical student, at my school at least. I also honored everything and was AOA. Obviously there are people who can achieve the same things I did with less time studying, but I could not have done as well as I did by only studying 6 hours a day (in other words, I was spending a lot more than that studying). Granted our class time was pretty minimal, so that leaves you lots of extra time to learn the material on your own.

Bottom line: don't worry about how much I studied, or about how much your friends study. Figure out what works for you and go with it.
 
The Angriest Bird said:
A lot of things in life are those for which you think it's so important that you would sacrifice anything you have now to get it, then 10 years later, looking in retrospect and you go"why?"

AOA is one of those things.
Click to expand...

So this is how the other side thinks. 😱
 
Kaushik said:
Crap, 6 hrs/day is too much? I only started 2 weeks ago and I feel like I'm constantly behind! Hopefully, as the next few weeks go on, I can fall into a study rhythm that works for me and not spend as much time studying as I do now.
Click to expand...

It's not too much if that's what you need to do. But I feel like 42 hours a week (plus more during test time) during the lightest year can lead to burnout. Obviously this is school dependent but 1st year typically has significantly less material than 2nd yr. I had fellow classmates who were unable adjust to the increased load 2nd yr bc they were used to fitting much less material in that time frame.

I honestly believe people exaggerate the difficulty of med school and how much they actually study. When I talk about how much I study I'm not including anytime wasted online or any breaks.

I guess my point is do what you gotta do but don't feel like you have to be a studying cyborg to do well. Efficiency is the key
 
2012mdc said:
It's not too much if that's what you need to do. But I feel like 42 hours a week (plus more during test time) during the lightest year can lead to burnout. Obviously this is school dependent but 1st year typically has significantly less material than 2nd yr. I had fellow classmates who were unable adjust to the increased load 2nd yr bc they were used to fitting much less material in that time frame.

I honestly believe people exaggerate the difficulty of med school and how much they actually study. When I talk about how much I study I'm not including anytime wasted online or any breaks.

I guess my point is do what you gotta do but don't feel like you have to be a studying cyborg to do well. Efficiency is the key
Click to expand...


I completely agree with your above post, and my study habits have changed significantly from the beginning of school. I'm always curious to hear about how people who did well planned their days, books used, etc. Would you mind throwing us a basic time line for each day of studying.....what worked for you? Thanks!
 
mtwop said:
I completely agree with your above post, and my study habits have changed significantly from the beginning of school. I'm always curious to hear about how people who did well planned their days, books used, etc. Would you mind throwing us a basic time line for each day of studying.....what worked for you? Thanks!
Click to expand...

I don't remember off hand so I'll have to look on my laptop. Give me a few days. The schedule isn't anything special though. First Aid, Rapid Review Path, Robbins Review, Big Robbins as reference only and then class lecture notes.

I tried to integrate Step 1 with class material as much as possible and gradually switched the ratio of class stuff to step 1 stuff over the year. At the beginning it was about 80-90% class and near the end it had switched to 80-90% Step 1
 
AOA will help you get into a better residency than if you didn't get it. So if that matters to you, then go for it & if you don't care about residency then don't study too hard. BTW, medical school is only 3 years of hard work, b/c M4 is a vacation, so it's not that bad.
 
20 hours on top of how many?

20 extra hours on top of 20..... hell yea

20 on 40... maybe

20 on 60... most likely no

20 on 80.... helllll nooo!!!!
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Then again, if it helps you match into, say, Derm or Ophtho, some would argue that busting your ass for 3-4 years so that 10 years later you'd be loving life is entirely worth it.

Just playing Devil's Advocate.
Click to expand...

Of the 10 or so people I know who have matched into Ophtho, only 2 have been AOA. The only specialty where AOA is really a deciding factor into whether or not you actually match is Derm; for the rest, it may make you more palatable at the "best" (i.e. richest) programs, but a lot of other things will too (high step 1 score, good clinical evaluations, high step 2 score, research/pubs, etc)
 
Also regarding the post about getting into competitive residencies with or without AOA... I met with the head of the Urology program at my school and asked him about it, and he asked me those two questions.

Him: "What is your step 1 score?" (i give it to him) "How about AOA?"
Me: "I don't think I'm eligible for it, but I'm in the top quintile of the class."
Him: "No big deal, your score makes you competitive for pretty much everything. Now let's talk about research."
 
ArcGurren said:
Of the 10 or so people I know who have matched into Ophtho, only 2 have been AOA. The only specialty where AOA is really a deciding factor into whether or not you actually match is Derm; for the rest, it may make you more palatable at the "best" (i.e. richest) programs, but a lot of other things will too (high step 1 score, good clinical evaluations, high step 2 score, research/pubs, etc)
Click to expand...

I agree. AOA (w/o any red flags) makes you extremely likely to match in most specialties (Derm and Integrated Plastics would be the exceptions).

Not having AOA doesn't preclude you from any specialty. Even in Derm close to half of those matching weren't AOA.

AOA can help with how competitive a program you match into though. 2/3 people who matched optho at my school had AOA and 1 didn't. 2 matched into a top tier program, the other didn't. One of the AOA's also matched into one of the most competitive TY's in the country.

I would recommend basically killing yourself for it only if you're deadset on matching into a competitive program on the coasts (or Chicago) in a competitive specialty AND your med school isn't elite AND you're applying out of the region. Even then it's still shaky
 
SGuttenberg said:
atleast that's a genuine meritocracy. I envy you. I wish more residencies realized how flawed and un-uniform a metric AOA status is and wouldn't give it as much importance.
Click to expand...

Did you stutter when you were trying to say uniform? jk
 
The people I feel bad for are those that put in the >20 hours extra per week, and then barely don't get AOA. That would suck.
 
golfman said:
The people I feel bad for are those that put in the >20 hours extra per week, and then barely don't get AOA. That would suck.
Click to expand...

No. The people I feel bad for are the ones who put in the >20 hours extra per week, are deserving, but lose a popularity contest to the bubbly, 34C-24-34 with lesser merit.
 
CWWinning said:
No. The people I feel bad for are the ones who put in the >20 hours extra per week, are deserving, but lose a popularity contest to the bubbly, 34C-24-34 with lesser merit.
Click to expand...

How true. I've noticed that I'm not the only bitter person. Ah life and its unfairness...

Our AOA is 50% women (fair) and more than 50% of those women are 7s or better (not fair). The question is do they do well because they were always given encouragement or do they get by with less work due to looks or both (my guess).

Life rewards the beautiful. On the plus side it matters more for women. Really its a heinous crime against the innocent when ugly people have children, you screw them from the get go. That's why I'm dying childless (that and i doubt any women's going to let an ugly mofo like me knock her up :laugh:)
 
SGuttenberg said:
How true. I've noticed that I'm not the only bitter person. Ah life and its unfairness...

Our AOA is 50% women (fair) and more than 50% of those women are 7s or better (not fair). The question is do they do well because they were always given encouragement or do they get by with less work due to looks or both (my guess).

Life rewards the beautiful. On the plus side it matters for women. Really its a heinous crime against the innocent when ugly people have children, you screw them from the get go. That's why I'm dying childless (that and i doubt any women's going to let an ugly mofo like me knock her up :laugh:)
Click to expand...

Careful...you said "mofo." I just got an infraction for telling some kid in a thread that he needs to study his physical exam skills more. True Story.
 
This would explain why the derm residents are so attractive.

SGuttenberg said:
How true. I've noticed that I'm not the only bitter person. Ah life and its unfairness...

Our AOA is 50% women (fair) and more than 50% of those women are 7s or better (not fair). The question is do they do well because they were always given encouragement or do they get by with less work due to looks or both (my guess).

Life rewards the beautiful. On the plus side it matters more for women. Really its a heinous crime against the innocent when ugly people have children, you screw them from the get go. That's why I'm dying childless (that and i doubt any women's going to let an ugly mofo like me knock her up :laugh:)
Click to expand...
 
So glad my school's process is fair. None of that politicking crap
 
2012mdc said:
I agree. AOA (w/o any red flags) makes you extremely likely to match in most specialties (Derm and Integrated Plastics would be the exceptions).

Not having AOA doesn't preclude you from any specialty. Even in Derm close to half of those matching weren't AOA.

AOA can help with how competitive a program you match into though. 2/3 people who matched optho at my school had AOA and 1 didn't. 2 matched into a top tier program, the other didn't. One of the AOA's also matched into one of the most competitive TY's in the country.

I would recommend basically killing yourself for it only if you're deadset on matching into a competitive program on the coasts (or Chicago) in a competitive specialty AND your med school isn't elite AND you're applying out of the region. Even then it's still shaky
Click to expand...

lol. I think I gave up on going for it, I figure I will just master the material and see where I wind up. I definitely am not setting goals to get __ honors in the pre clinicals.

With all the group learning we do, there appears to be a lot of politics going into grades (subjective crap). I'm liking some of the competitive surgery residencies, so I don't think AOA is that big of a deal (coasts would be nice, but I'll do my preferred specialty in anytown, USA).
 
SGuttenberg said:
How true. I've noticed that I'm not the only bitter person. Ah life and its unfairness...

Our AOA is 50% women (fair) and more than 50% of those women are 7s or better (not fair). The question is do they do well because they were always given encouragement or do they get by with less work due to looks or both (my guess).

Life rewards the beautiful. On the plus side it matters more for women. Really its a heinous crime against the innocent when ugly people have children, you screw them from the get go. That's why I'm dying childless (that and i doubt any women's going to let an ugly mofo like me knock her up :laugh:)
Click to expand...

Yeah, all things equal, hot chicks are chosen.

All things not equal, hot chicks are still chosen.
 
That's pretty much the exact question to ask yourself if you are actually interested in AOA. If your career path is one of the most competitive ones, it's a necessary sacrifice. If you just want it, why is it even worth it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Z
AOA Carolyn L. Kuckein 2025
Replies
3
Views
1K
curious_yaourt
curious_yaourt
S
High school student doing a project — What study methods helped you learn anatomy best?
Replies
7
Views
1K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
H
What would you do?
Replies
12
Views
2K
operaman
O
PathNeuroIMorFM
  • Question Question
What would you recommend an incompetent interviewer to prepare for the interview cycle?
Replies
9
Views
1K
operaman
O
I
What would it take to graduate medical school with no debt for an M2?
Replies
9
Views
1K
AJS59
AJS59
Top