If could could have done the 1st 2 yrs in 1 would you have done it?

[banannie]

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hey med students,

i'm starting med school this fall, and am trying to decide where to go. one of my options is Duke, the school where you do all of your basic sciences in 1 year.

for those of you who went to schools where you had 2 years of basic science, did you feel that 2 years was way too much, that you wish you could have skipped 2nd year and gone directly to the clinics? or, did you feel like it was a good idea to have 2 full years to learn all of the material, that you liked having some of the non-science, warm and fuzzy humanities coursework interspersed as well?

i don't feel like i need to rush this med school thing. i'm perfectly content to take my time learning everything. but i do wonder if, once i'm there, i'll really wish i only had 1 year of basic science instead of 2.

thanks, kids!

 

[kcrd]

I had no idea there were med schools out there that let you do the 1st 2 years in 1 year. I can't imagine doing that. There are no 'warm and fuzzy humanities' courses in the med schools that I know of - just science. Do you work through both summers to fit everything in?

 

[dlc]

Hi banannie!
I am a first year at Duke and I just wanted to let you know that I have been so happy here with the curriculum. Duke has always been my dream school and the accelerated pace of everything was just an added plus for me. Sure it can feel rushed at times but the professors here are all very nice and accomodating with when tests are given, deadlines, etc. I have never really enjoyed sitting in lectures because I just don't learn well that way so to get it all done in one year was good for me. We have one more block of classes left and then we are on the wards, which is both a little scary and a little exciting for me. The other good thing I like about having everything in one year is that I have been exposed to mostly everything I should know for the boards and I have this extra year next year to digest the information and see it in action. If you have any questions about Duke, let me know!
Dana

 

[MacGyver]

I wouldnt not recommend Duke. Putting both years into 1 year is definitely leaving out some stuff. You will have to study extra hard for the USMLE because Duke doesnt teach you thoroughly enough in 1 year to cover all the material.

I keep hearing some people at Duke say that they get EXACTLY hte same exposure in 1 year that ohter people get over 2 years. I'm claiming bull**** on that. Med school curricula are already jam packed in the 2 year model; by subtracting a year you have to sacrifice some depth and detail.

 

[Behcet]

I don't know much about Duke except that every student I've ever met from there was sharp (then again, good material in usually means good product out). I've always thought of Duke as being a great place to train if somebody is interested in research and/or academics. I can't offer any opinion...but I'd trust the opinion of the Duke student over the hearsay of the other poster here...

 

[doepug]

If you have an attractive alternative, I'd turn down Duke.

Yes, it's appealing to have third year wide open, but ultimately I think you lose out. I think Duke students miss out on getting a classical medical education, and they have to work much harder for a good Step I score. You'll need to marinate your brain for a while to get this stuff to sink in, and I think you're getting a superficial understanding of the material (at best) by condensing two years into one.

Duke would make a great doctor out of you, but I think you'd be sacrificing time that is essential to let core knowledge sink into your brain. If you got into a medical school of similar caliber, I'd politely turn down Duke.

Cheers,

doepug
MS III, Johns Hopkins

 

[CANES2006]

Personally, I think cramming 2 years into 1 is absolute craziness!😱 Medical school is so fast paced. You barely have enough time to grasp the material and allow it to sink in, when all of a sudden you are thrown into the next area of study. Besides, you need some time to unwind occasionally, and I can't see how you can have any time for anything BUT study if you are going at the pace that Duke goes through. If you are a super quick learner then more power to you. In the end, it is your call. Good luck! 🙂

 

[banannie]

thanks for all of the helpful advice!

Duke is the only super-high-calliber school I got into, so unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of choosing the best fit for me from among the very best schools.

To be honest, I've done a lot of research on Duke, and I'm really not that concerned about having an inordinate amount of work the first year (Duke students were among the least stressed out that I met! And this was the night before a big exam!). I also think its going to be a huge advantage to have a year of clinical experience before I take the boards . . . the material will definitely have time to sink in that year, especially since I will get to see how it's actually applied!

But, I was hoping that some current med students at more traditional schools could specifically address whether they thought 2 years of basic science just felt too long (for them), or whether they were comfortable sitting in classrooms for that long before getting to do clinical rotations? I keep hearing from Duke students that they are so glad they only had to do 1 year of basic science . . . I wonder if all med students wish they could do that, or if Duke's first year is so tough that they honestly couldn't handle doing it over again.

So if anyone has any comments from their own personal experience, that would be enormously helpful. Thank you!

 

[droliver]

I think I'll have to throw in with the general consensus here even though it's been 9 years since I was a first year student. It truly is incomprehensible to me to do what Duke does for the basic sciences. Mastering that much material is such a large task, but its one that is so very important to later in integrating clinical knowledge. Sure you'll never have to draw the citric acid cycle or amino acid metabolisms out again, but they are the building blocks for becoming a good clinician. The superficial overview that you have to do with the Duke system is not an advance to me.

I think the only reason the USMLE avg. doesn't bottom out @ Duke is the self-selected population of good test takers. I'm sure the students do enjoy ending their classwork prematurely, but it just seems to much of a hurry to run before you can walk.

 

[Thewonderer]

I heard somewhere that Duke's average USMLE step 1 score is 1/2 standard deviation above the national mean. It is okay, not as high as the average score at some of the other top med schools.

 

[Annette]

Don't put too much emphasis on step 1. You will be a US grad, and you will get a residency with even a just passing score. Duke has a reputation to uphold, so they are unlikely to do anything that will jeopardize how their students perform.

Go where your gut tells you to go. Other students' opinions don't really matter. If you feel Duke fits you best, go to Duke. If the other school fits better, go there, regardless if it is less highly ranked. You will do best in the place that feels most comfortable to you!

 

[MD2b06]

Some people on here seem to be assuming that Duke is covering everything in one year that other schools take 2 years to cover. There's absolutely no way that is possible. The pace in the traditional 2 year curriculum is insane as it is, no group of students (I don't care how select) could cover all that in 1 year. No offense intended to any Duke students. The way Duke is condensing the pre-clinical years to just the first year is by throwing out what they consider to be all the non-essential stuff from their curriculum, and mainly focusing on stuff that is high yield for Step 1. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know as I'm still a first year med student. Duke's board scores are still solid, but something tells me they would be even higher if they had another year of basic sciences. Having said all that, I must say Duke is an awesome school, and I would think twice before giving up an acceptance.

 

[hotbovie1]

I didn't know that about Duke. At my school, the first two years were full of a lot of useless trivia. I'm about to graduate, and I haven't had to know any biochemical structures, for example, since I took our last biochem exam at the end of M1 year. I don't have to know anthing about biochemical pathways since I took step 1. Pharmacology was a horrible class, filled with memorizing lots of trivial details about a a very extensive drug list (the professor who taught antibiotics actually tested us on the half lives!!). I do use gross anatomy daily (going into surgery). I don't use histology at all. I use maybe 5% of the neuroanatomy were had to memorize. I don't use any cell/molecular biology. Mosf of pathophysiology focuses on the rare stuff, not the common problems (we had nearly equal lecture time on diabetes as we did on multiple endocrine neoplasia, a rather rare thing). Plus, esp in second year, we had way to much reptition. We'd have in the same week lecture in pathophys and path on the same topic, and pharm would also cover the pathophys of the disease the drugs for the day would be used to treat.

I would say that I use in the wards maybe total 40% of the stuff we had to learn for first two years.

If the duke students are happy with the curriculum, I'd seriously consider it. You can allay any fears you have for step 1 by taking the Kaplan review course. A good portion of step 1 is the kind of trivia that only stays in short term memory...trust me, you won't remember the biochem pathways, or embryology, etc, after 2 years of med school. I felt like my school prepared us very poorly for step 1 (in fact we were guinea pig class for a curriculum change and we had a record failure rate) but we still had a number of people get kick ass scores... (>240). If you don't take a review class, you need to spend the month before you take it in a very focused review with some quailty review books. Also, I think your test taking skill plays a role. If you are good at multiple choice standardized tests, you'll probably do OK on step 1.
BTW, one of our folks that failed step 1 passed on second try and matched in general surgery this year (we had 5/20 not match who had to scramble) Surgery is middle of the road in terms of competitiveness but picked up some this year.

 

[Thewonderer]

From my friend at Duke who provided me the board score info, apparently even with their condensed curriculum, their existing classes suck at teaching for the boards. Much of the basic science they teach still have no clinical relevancy. It might change with their "new" curriculum coming up. don't know.

My friend was very stressed out in her first two years at Duke, by the way. Because neither a condensed basic science nor an intense require clerkships are easy to handle while trying to have some sort of social life (i.e. you will have chances to get drunk but my friend likes to travel and it ain't happening for her any time soon!).

 

[powermd]

I can't speak about how well Duke achieves it's goal of condensing 2 years into 1, but at the outset I think it's a great idea. Keep in mind that med school at Duke is STILL 4 years long. Just because they leave out a chunk of basic science material initially doesn't mean the students won't eventually go back to read about it in their clerkships. I re-read basic science material all the time in my clerkships- perfect example, looking up drug information in Epocrates. Sure, we were taught and expected to memorize the indications, mechanisms, contraindications, and side effects of every single drug, but obviously very little sticks. I have gone back to review some amino acid biochemistry for pediatric diseases. I review relevant anatomy for surgery and ob/gyn. Embryology for ob/gyn and peds. The list goes on.. My point is that much of the basic science curriculum is trivial (is it really crucial that I have at the ready the molecular structure of vimentin, or the side effects of BCNU??), and the part that's not trivial can probably be taught in 1 year, and reviewed periodically in the next 3.

 

[MacGyver]

powermd,

you're assuming that the material which duke leaves out which other schools cover over 2 years is totally superfluous.

Not a good assumption. The stuff that duke misses out on is MUCH more important than just chemical structures.

 

[augmel]

hi banannie,
i am finishing my second year and i think most of what hotbovie said is right on. if duke teaches towards step 1, then they can leave a lot of stuff out that just doesn't matter. the one thing i disagree with is that i think the repetition of second year is extremely helpful. our curriculum is quite repetitive and i think it helps to realize what info will be important. it also helps to practice dredging up info from those deep recesses in our minds. from what i hear, people who are good at that are those that will shine in third year. also, at my school, we get a lot of clinical time during second year. we will start our third year having done a ton of histories, physicals, and bedside presentations before we have an official clerkship. i think this will make for more learning in third year and i can't imagine that duke leaves you much time for preparing for the wards.
having said that, i am majorly burnt out in the last 6 weeks of second year. being done with that damn lecture hall a year ago would be quite nice.
keep in mind that though duke is a great school with a reputation, any us school will get you where you want to go. don't focus too much on a reputation.

good luck

 

[dlc]

Banannie,
I sent you a pm, a really long one!
To everyone else,
Powermd has a really good point about very little sticking...Duke gives us the most important details and tries to expose us to as much as possible so that we know where to look further should we need to. I don't know about anyone else but I am of the strong opinion that less is definitely more, at least regarding the basic sciences...I don't remember what I learned back at the beginning of the year but I know the big picture and all I have to do is read my lectures over once and the information is back. I hardly ever use textbooks for class because that is just too much information for me to remember. Our professors do an excellent job, in my opinion, of clearly stating what is important for us to know, which is all that I am going to remember in the end anyway. And since most of the chemical structures, pathways are things that I have either already been exposed to in pre-med prerequisites or can look up quickly, I either understand why things happen already or it won't take me long to find an explanation. Hope that makes sense. I think that is how Duke crams everything into one year...they take out all of the stuff that you can look up on your own.
And as for the boards, well, that's all what you make of it. I am very happy with Duke's curriculum because it gives me a year to digest all of the information from first year, and I get to see it in action in second year. None of my classmates, as far as I know, have been so overwhelmed with the curriculum that they were studying constantly. In fact, I think my class has some of the most relaxed medical students I have ever met! I know I don't study as much as I thought I was going to have to!
Dana

 

[powermd]

Originally posted by MacGyver
powermd,

you're assuming that the material which duke leaves out which other schools cover over 2 years is totally superfluous.

Not a good assumption. The stuff that duke misses out on is MUCH more important than just chemical structures.

Okay then, could somebody post the Duke curriculum so we can get a better idea of what large concepts are being thrown out?

Based on my experience of the basic sciences, I feel there is lots of room for condensing. Pharm and micro are good examples of extaordinarily burdensome courses that would be much better if clinically irrelevant details were left for students to look up on their own when they can be applied to a memorable situation.

Side note: what is it with that long-ass signature from "Malice"? Is there something you're trying to reveal about yourself in there? I think one's signature should not be longer than the post it's attached to. Just my (always) humble opinion.

 

[kd]

I don't know anything about Duke, but I'm now finishing up my 2nd year at a traditional school and I think I'd like the Duke plan. Sure, it would be a really stressful year, but I absolutely HATE sitting in class and I think that I would learn more by being able to apply everything during 2nd year. I'm guessing that what Duke may do is teach you the basic concepts during 1st year, but lay off on the pure memorization. For example, pharm has tons of pure memorization: drug interactions, side effects, contraindications, etc.- it's utterly ridiculous to memorize laundry lists like that and it's instantly forgotten after the test. I know from personal experience that seeing a patient on the wards with those side effects will make me remember it FOREVER not just for the next test. What I've retained from the 1st two years is all stuff that I've seen in the clinics (mostly before I even started med school)
The USMLE is increasingly using clinical vignettes these days, so hands-on clinical experience would help a lot in that respect.