If docs salaries were capped would you still be one?

[NotShorty]

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Funny thing was, after a "few years" of a very nice income, I realized that there was much more to career (and life) satisfaction than a high salary.

Very true. I walked away from a comfortable and comparatively easy life to persue the path I'm now on. I'm couldn't possibly say that money is the only thing to consider, but I do believe in paying people what they're worth. Call me a rebel.

To the pre-meds with their lovely and admirable idealism untarnished; I think you're grossly OVERrating how much $95k is in today's world, and UNDERrating how much sacrifice, hard work, and time it takes to become a physician. Actually, I know you are.

In today's world, med school will get you about $200k in debt. No big deal, right? Factor in the interest, and you'll be paying close to a half a mil over at least a decade. Big deal.

Now cap off income at $95k. Your kids will be losing hair before that debt's paid, and you'll never be enough above water to make side investments to cover the difference. No one in their right mind (without a previous career or a piece of daddy's trust fund) would get into medicine. That's not gonna help out the projected doctor shortage.

Law2doc, while you make a valid point, non-trads at least have the normal 9 to 5 work world "out of their systems" before choosing medicine, plus they have the benefit of being in a better financial state compared to a pre-med walking out of undergrad with student loans, a couple grand racked up on their Visa, and no other marketable skills or real-world experience.

I appreciate the viewpoints from around the world. In what ways are your doctors compensated besides money. Aston Martin, free tuition, etc. Your children don't sleep well at night without food in their stomachs.

Listen to SOUNDMAN. Hats off to an American with his head on straight. 👍

NS

p.s. "Baby, sometimes love just ain't enough."

 

[Ross434]

Very true. I walked away from a comfortable and comparatively easy life to persue the path I'm now on. I'm couldn't possibly say that money is the only thing to consider, but I do believe in paying people what they're worth. Call me a rebel.

To the pre-meds with their lovely and admirable idealism untarnished; I think you're grossly OVERrating how much $95k is in today's world, and UNDERrating how much sacrifice, hard work, and time it takes to become a physician. Actually, I know you are.

In today's world, med school will get you about $200k in debt. No big deal, right? Factor in the interest, and you'll be paying close to a half a mil over at least a decade. Big deal.

Now cap off income at $95k. Your kids will be losing hair before that debt's paid, and you'll never be enough above water to make side investments to cover the difference. No one in their right mind (without a previous career or a piece of daddy's trust fund) would get into medicine. That's not gonna help out the projected doctor shortage.

Law2doc, while you make a valid point, non-trads at least have the normal 9 to 5 work world "out of their systems" before choosing medicine, plus they have the benefit of being in a better financial state compared to a pre-med walking out of undergrad with student loans, a couple grand racked up on their Visa, and no other marketable skills or real-world experience.

I appreciate the viewpoints from around the world. In what ways are your doctors compensated besides money. Aston Martin, free tuition, etc. Your children don't sleep well at night without food in their stomachs.

Listen to SOUNDMAN. Hats off to an American with his head on straight. 👍

NS

p.s. "Baby, sometimes love just ain't enough."

Nice . 👍 👍

 

[fourthyear]

The cost of med school would have to decrease significantly, or else only those of you with rich families who can pay for med school would really go through with this.

I'm now a resident looking at about 200K of debt. I've consolidated loans and am defering during residency, but I'm still looking at about $1000/month for the next 30 years once I start paying. This is like another house payment but when you're done paying after 30 years you have no house to sell. It's worth it to do the job I want, but if my income were limited to 95K a year...there are just too many other jobs that make that much and the potential for more that don't require you to spend 200K in 4 years, make no money for 4 years, then make about 40K for 3-8 years of residency and fellowship...it would not be a worthwhile financhial decision to go to med school if you have to take out loans to pay for school. I love medicine and am not in it for the money, but with the sacrifices you make to get through school and training it would not be a realistically sound decision to dig yourself into debt in order to be salary capped.

If they made med school much more reasonable in cost or free, yes I'd do it, but there's no way that's ever gonna happen so my answer is NO.

 

[bonez318ti]

Yes I would, under the following conditions:

- 8 weeks of vacation per year
- 30 hour work week (anything over that would be OT at ~$300/hour)
- Student loans are forgiven
- Pay increases are tied to the percentage increases that Congress members get, not this COLA crap that social security people get screwed over with.

Outside of that, no way. Having a decent lifestyle is one of the reasons I chose medicine and I'm not ashamed of that. I even mentioned that at one of my interviews. Apparently it wasn't that big of a deal, as I got an acceptance from them.

Ditto, except, I'd trade the 30 hour work week for:

A 40 hour work week, plus
No malpractice headaches
No paperwork (ie: managed care/credentialling, etc)

 

[Biscuit799]

I've done research on peoples' decision to have a child, and its relation to tax incentives (I'm an economics major). Now you may think "but Ryan, people don't have a child for tax purposes." Well guess what, in the long run, tax incentives effect the decision to have a kid. The fact is: people respond to incentives. Now we all can feel good about ourselves by saying we don't do it for the money, but if the money wasn't there, I promise you most of us wouldn't go through the 4 years of med school and 3 or more years of residency required to be a doctor. If doctors' salaries were capped (which would be stupid considering they don't make that much money anymore) than less people would want to be doctors. It wasn't until the 80's that business people started making serious money as a general rule, but now there are more students in b-school than ever before. Any disincentive to be a doctor would lower the quality of physicians, and hence healthcare overall. Besides, who has the business of determining how much money is "too much" to make? Ask 100 different people and you'll get 100 different answers.

 

[bonez318ti]

The fact is: people respond to incentives.

You're right. It seems that managed care has figured that out... since managed care companies are moving towards a rewards based incentive program that rewards physicians based on how well they adhere to 'best practices'. So even in the semi-nationalized world of managed care, we can see some attempts to differentiate quality providers.

 

[RaaMD]

Yes, I would! My desires for medicine never included financial security as the main incentive. Plus, 95K is a decent amount of living per year, and the respect that society holds for physicians would still be high.

 

[Blue Scrub]

This is one of the more interesting threads going on right now. Superdevil, thanks for the shout out! Cmon guys, dont be so bashful about wanting a nice lifestyle from medicine! I dont think the people that have come out and said this, consider this factor to be their MAIN motivation for joining the profession, but it is ONE factor in deciding to pursue medicine. Nothing to be ashamed of! I think most of us that have posted agree that $95k (OK so its a ridiculous salary cap figure, but that's not the point) wouldn't be so bad, if there were some incentives for becoming physicians in the first place, namely, 1) significantly lower med school tuitions and 2) significantly lower malpractice costs. You could even throw in less working hours if you want. There are so many other reasons that we still want to be doctors.

Second, yes the Canadian and UK health systems do have their positives as compared to the US health care system, but it also has its faults, many Im sure you are all aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since it is universal health care, it does cover all, but there are also very long waiting times for even minor procedures (months/years). Plus, its inevitable that the costs for those health care systems will increase due to medical technology vastly increasing, as well as budget control by the government, which as a result may lead to higher taxes or even longer wait times. Third, in a capitalistic system like the US, those systems will never happen here. No one wants to wait 5 years for a heart transplant. It's not how our society works. We're Americans! Bigger, better, and faster is what we need! If you have the money, why wait months or years to have a procedure done when you can spend the money to have it done next week? Problem is, most dont have that kind of money. While our system does suck for a lot of people, its the system that mirrors our type of society.

 

[NotShorty]

Yes, I would! My desires for medicine never included financial security as the main incentive. Plus, 95K is a decent amount of living per year, and the respect that society holds for physicians would still be high.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you're pre-med, right? Email your post to yourself and don't open it until you're having a really bad day as a medical student...just as a reminder of how you used to feel.

There will be days that you will lose sight of the light at the end of the tunnel, and the only thing that gets you out of bed will be the thought of money. Count on it. Maybe it will be the money you will make some day, maybe it will be the money that you have to pay back for your loans.

$95,000 is a 5 digit income, just like $35,000. Breaking the 6 digit barrier is a huge psychological victory. One that many have tried in vain to cross.

"The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for."
-Maureen Dowd

NS

 

[nist7]

Two words: Malpractice insurance.


Many doctors would probably qualify for welfare on a salary of 95k per year. And can you just imagine the OB/GYNs and surgeons...

 

[Blake]

Hell yea I'd still do it. Money is pretty low on my reasons for choosing medicine, whether people believe it or not. Then again, I live in Canada and I probably will never make over 200k.

 

[CoffeeCat]

I'm with you on this one. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting nice things and doing the work necessary to get them. Granted, if that's the only thing that drives you, there may be a problem. I hate how this board makes it so taboo to ever want more than bare necessities. Lifestyle inevitably is a certain part of the equation, it just shouldn't be all there is. Nothing melimi said leads me to believe she [?] is entirely superficial...

My thumbs down comment was on the hummer, not the salary. I have no problem with people making what they earn, I do have a problem with people ruining the environment unnecessarily. Try a Prius...or even a hybrid SUV.

 

[twinklz]

How's this for depressing. My dad, an internist in a fairly rural area, pulled in less than 95k last year (before taxes). He's been in practice for the past oh, 25 years. He only made $15,000 more than my mom who is a nurse/administrator. He's trying to put 3 kids through college (well, technically I'm out, but the debt is still there) and his head is barely above water.

So, no, I'm not in medicine to make a lucrative salary. Any fiscal incentive is more to make wise business decisions and invest my money (something which he definitely has not done and continues not to do).

 

[scrappysurfer]

Actually you may realize the opposite. I thought exactly like you when I was coming out of college -- that it was unrealistic to think that your motivation and outlook would not be tied to your income. Funny thing was, after a "few years" of a very nice income, I realized that there was much more to career (and life) satisfaction than a high salary. If you look at the nontraditional board, you will see numerous posts of career changers with high salaries leaving their jobs to find more satisfying, more intellectual, more value-adding pursuits in medicine...

My biomedical engineering degree might not pay like law, but with a 4 (for me 5) year degree you can quickly work your way to something comfortable.

No matter what you do, by the time you start making money, you are generally "slaving away." I know a lot of wealthy people who hate their jobs. The result: their unhappiness at work bleeds into their daily life as they take out their unhappiness on their families.

I had several unsolicited job offers before I even finished my undergrad degree in engineering. After a few internships as a biomedical engineer, it occured to me that no one could pay me enough to sit in a manufacturing engineering cubicle and pay tribute to the FDA. I kept my high satisfaction research engineering job for half the salary and applied to medical school. A few years of working is enough to convince me that I want to enjoy what I do between the hours of 9 and 5 (or 6am-7pm).

Law2Doc: I am with you all the way on this topic.

 

[NotShorty]

A few years of working is enough to convince me that I want to enjoy what I do between the hours of 9 and 5 (or 6am-7pm). Law2Doc: I am with you all the way on this topic.

😕 😕 😕

Thanks for agreeing with me: Anyone with real-world experience, marketable skills outside of medicine, and a stable (not overflowing) bank account would happily trade such stability for a more satisfying field.

Any of the idealistic pre-meds who lack these things yet still boldly state that a salary cap wouldn't bother them is out of their damned minds.

NS

 

[Trismegistus4]

Having a decent lifestyle is one of the reasons I chose medicine and I'm not ashamed of that. I even mentioned that at one of my interviews. Apparently it wasn't that big of a deal, as I got an acceptance from them.

Wow, it's great that that worked out for you. I've been paranoid that interviews are going to amount to grilling sessions where I'm raked over the coals to determine whether I want to dedicate my life to providing preventative care for indigent populations in third world countries and paying for the privilege of doing it, and when it they detect that I'm not particularly interested in joining Doctors Without Borders, the interviewer will immediately close the session with "get your heterosexual white male a$$ outta here, you greedy capitalist oppressor."

At least, that's the impression one gets sometimes from reading SDN.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Yes, I would! My desires for medicine never included financial security as the main incentive. Plus, 95K is a decent amount of living per year, and the respect that society holds for physicians would still be high.

Not once that 95k figure has sunk into the national consciousness... the respect that society holds for certain professions is in part CAUSED by the income levels for which those professions are known. Think of the respect society holds for teachers or social workers. Wait until an entire generation has grown up in a world in which doctors don't make 6 figures, and see how much respect doctors get (not to mention also having their professional lives subjugated to the government, another respect-diminishing factor.)

Two words: Malpractice insurance.


Many doctors would probably qualify for welfare on a salary of 95k per year. And can you just imagine the OB/GYNs and surgeons...

I think we have to assume that the 95k figure is a net income: i.e., before taxes, but after all expenses. Just like when you see salary averages posted today by specialty (150k for FP, 250k for anesthesia, etc.) they refer to what the doctor collects for himself after malpractice insurance, rent, office staff, equipment, and everything else has been paid for.

 

[wends]

just as long as i can live comfortably i'll be happy. i like medicine because it i know it'll challenge me and keep me interested everyday and i'll have a fullfiling and satisfied life. that being said, i dont want to be making minimal wage and living in basements with rats and cockroaches like i did when i was young. money doesnt make you happy but neither does not eating for a few days. i didnt go through like 10 years of post sec to be scrapping by worrying about bills cause i've got enough worries to deal with in a medical career. the more responsibility a job entails, the more monetary rewards it has. if i have to worry about my patients progess going down, paying bills for my practice, dealing with emergencies all day then go home and work out bills and worry about hydro bills, cable bills, credit card bills that i cant pay i think i'd die of disappointment.