IM chances and school list

[SympatricSpeciation]

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Current MS3 (completed 5/8 rotations)
My profile:
- Mid-tier institution
- Year 1 and 2 - unranked
- Step 1: 250-255
- Current Year 3 grades (system of H/HP/P): mix of HPs and Ps so far, IM honors.
- Research is ok, not amazing. a few abstracts.
- Assuming not AOA

1. I am interested in East Coast, preferably Northeast. I am looking to apply to ~30 programs. What would be some good mid-to-high tier places I should be applying to?

2. If I wanted to apply to very competitive places(bwh,mgh,presb), would it be advisable to do aways there given that I don't check off all their boxes (no aoa, ok research, ok but not terrible grades)? Any helpful input would be appreciated.

FWIW, compelling life story.

 

[DBV]

You're a little late bro

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

You're a little late bro

I'm MS3. I have done most rotations, and by not AOA meaning I'm likely not going to get AOA.

 

[Redpancreas]

There’s a specific WAMC for this. I don’t know if there’s a 2019 WAMC @gutonc and/or @tantacles may be able to help.

From my experience looking at SDN, reading the Reddit threads/sheets, I’d say you have a strong shot at great programs, and that’s where you’ll probably match but probably not the Big 4/Premiers. I feel like the tip-top schools have this logic that either you have to be from a top school, beat out competition at your schools with AOA, or demonstrate a great deal of research/scholarly activity to prove you’re serious about academic medicine and aren’t looking to use your future residency as a stepping stone to your future as a private-practice proceduralist . Letters, exact reputation of your medical school, answer details of that’s compelling life’s story will also play a factor we won’t be able to predict.

Your reaches will be the T10-20 schools, but I have a feeling some may show you love. Some outstanding places that are your targets may be UPitt, Case Western, Emory, Vanderbilt, , UVA, Boston U., Rochester, Temple, Jefferson, Montefiore, Tufts, and Wake.

As for aways, to parrot what I’ve heard actual IM Physicians say, it could help in the form of networking and getting a nice letter, but I have seen so many examples of people put-off by getting rejected while they were doing their away rotation that I think what others say is right. IM is too large of a field for people to put serious stock in aways, and also, the deck’s stacked against you because trying to make a good impression while learning a new EMR/location/culture isn’t the easiest.

So I wouldn’t use aways as a way to get an in at a specific school, but maybe use one as a learning a experience and try to possibly get a letter from someone respected at another institution. Regarding whether it’s better to do a general medicine or specialty away, I have no idea.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

There’s a specific WAMC for this. I don’t know if there’s a 2019 WAMC @gutonc and/or @tantacles may be able to help.

From my experience looking at SDN, reading the Reddit threads/sheets, I’d say you have a strong shot at great programs, and that’s where you’ll probably match but probably not the Big 4/Premiers. I feel like the tip-top schools have this logic that either you have to be from a top school, beat out competition at your schools with AOA, or demonstrate a great deal of research/scholarly activity to prove you’re serious about academic medicine and aren’t looking to use your future residency as a stepping stone to your future as a private-practice proceduralist . Letters and exact reputation of your medical school will also play a factor we won’t be able to predict.

Your reaches will be the T10-20 schools, but I have a feeling some may show you love. Some outstanding places that are your targets may be UPitt, Case Western, Emory, Vanderbilt, , UVA, Boston U., Rochester, Temple, Jefferson, Montefiore, Tufts, and Wake.

Thanks for your response. I'm aware I'm not big 4/premier material on paper, but is there any utility in doing aways at any of these places with the faint hope that I may get connected to the right people (expenses not being an issue)? Have you heard of others doing this with success?

 

[Redpancreas]

Thanks for your response. I'm aware I'm not big 4/premier material on paper, but is there any utility in doing aways at any of these places with the faint hope that I may get connected to the right people (expenses not being an issue)? Have you heard of others doing this with success?

See my edit. Also, I’m just a student one year above ya so don’t put too much stock into what I have to say.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

Thank you. Any other opinions on previous experiences with aways and/or other programs to add to my list?

 

[DBV]

Then just apply who cares you're going to spend a bajilion dollars. Would not waste any time worrying about it.

 

[tantacles]

Thank you. Any other opinions on previous experiences with aways and/or other programs to add to my list?

I think I wouldn't look for this kind of anecdotal evidence. It's not helpful. Aways aren't necessary for medicine. Your application has to speak for itself.

 

[Shams al Deen]

Does analyzing your med school's previous match lists help predict which places you can expect to match, or is there generally too much variation for that to be of any use?

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

Looking at the previous two match lists, I can't seem to find any correlation whatsoever. Based on what's been said here, I feel like it's pretty much a judgment call on my part if I want to do aways. My goal wasn't to ask whether aways are necessary for medicine (I know they aren't), but rather to learn something new from people who tried it (or know someone who did) and what their experience was like. And while anecdotes are hardly evidence, someone's account of their experience may bring up perspectives I may have not considered up to this point. Hoping to hear some more stories! 🙂

 

[jhamaican]

Would not recommend doing away rotations for IM. You are in enemy territory, don't know the hospital/ancillary staff/EMR etc etc.. You are going to look poor compared to the local students, particularly at top institutions where the "competition" is stiff.

Mid tier school and not AOA: stay good night to your dreams of a "tip of the ivory castle" program.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

Would not recommend doing away rotations for IM. You are in enemy territory, don't know the hospital/ancillary staff/EMR etc etc.. You are going to look poor compared to the local students, particularly at top institutions where the "competition" is stiff.

Mid tier school and not AOA: stay good night to your dreams of a "tip of the ivory castle" program.

How is that different from any away rotation ever? What would make it particularly a bad idea for IM? And what do I have to lose other than money (which as I said is not a problem)? At worst, I would just do a rotation in which I would learn lots at a renowned place. Clearly, people have done it before because it wasn't such a clear-cut, obvious decision. And some have succeeded. Also, thank you for your metaphors, good job.

 

[jhamaican]

How is that different from any away rotation ever? What would make it particularly a bad idea for IM? And what do I have to lose other than money (which as I said is not a problem)? At worst, I would just do a rotation in which I would learn lots. Clearly, people have done it before because it wasn't such a clear-cut, obvious decision. And some have succeeded. Also, thank you for your metaphors, good job.

honestly sounds as if your mind is already made up. Like you said, only thing you have to lose is time and money. go for it. Was just trying to give you a realistic vision from someone who has been through all this. Don't take the advice as a personal attack. And who knows, maybe someone important will take a liking to you and pull some strings, but highly highly unlikely.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

honestly sounds as if your mind is already made up. Like you said, only thing you have to lose is time and money. go for it. Was just trying to give you a realistic vision from someone who has been through all this. Don't take the advice as a personal attack. And who knows, maybe someone important will take a liking to you and pull some strings, but highly highly unlikely.

honestly sounds as if your mind is already made up. Like you said, only thing you have to lose is time and money. go for it. Was just trying to give you a realistic vision from someone who has been through all this. Don't take the advice as a personal attack. And who knows, maybe someone important will take a liking to you and pull some strings, but highly highly unlikely.

I appreciate the advice. My mind is not made up yet. But I have already read several threads with the generic spiel of IM aways= always bad idea. Not every situation is the same. I'm more interested to hear some more concrete stories and perspectives of people who went through this, so I can make a more informed decision, given the privileged position that I have of not caring about the cost/time.

 

[Merely]

How is that different from any away rotation ever? What would make it particularly a bad idea for IM? And what do I have to lose other than money (which as I said is not a problem)? At worst, I would just do a rotation in which I would learn lots at a renowned place. Clearly, people have done it before because it wasn't such a clear-cut, obvious decision. And some have succeeded. Also, thank you for your metaphors, good job.

My friend did an away rotation at a top IM program. He said that the kids there were stiff competition and they had an edge on him having already done third year rotations there. He did not get an invite to the programs he did away rotations at even though he was better than you on paper.

 

[agnes5]

I'm currently applying into IM right now and here are some of the things I have noticed from what I have seen with my classmates and people who have interviewed with me at some of the top programs.

1. There is a ton of randomness in who gets interviews and who doesn't even among your home applicants with similar stats. Geographic and school specific biases are very real. I'm at a top 20 MD school on the west coast and many of the top midwest/southern programs have not sent me IIs (i.e. WashU, Michigan, Duke) despite having interviews at other top tiers (i.e. Penn, Stanford, etc). My advisors warned me about this prior to applying as we had not sent anyone to any of the midwest programs in many years. Like someone pointed out, go through your previous match lists thoroughly and try to see where people have matched (or where people have never matched within the last 5 years). It'll give you a good idea of where you have a chance of getting interviews from.

2. The top of IM is super competitive (particularly the big 4). People say that ECs don't matter in IM, but I have found that for top programs they do. These programs are looking to create leaders in medicine, not just in research but also in meded, health policy, LGBT health, etc. Stats will only take you so far. Also, based on people I have interviewed with and students from my own school, having AOA helps immensely for the top programs and will help you get your foot in the door versus similar applicants without AOA despite being ranked in the top of their class, especially coming from a midtier school. Just appears to be the name of game unfortunately.

3. I have a friend with similar stats to you from my school with rather minimal ECs but did not get IIs from the big 4 or some of the other top east coast programs (Penn, Columbia). She did however get invites at UCLA, UChicago, Cornell, etc. Take that for what you will.

 

[Jumb0]

First of all, congratulations on the Step 1 score and IM honors. I'd confidently say that, based on Step 1 score alone, all doors are open with a 250+. And, from what I've read, an "H" in IM clerkship is considered an unspoken prerequisite to match at top tier IM programs, which makes sense, so you've done well to check that box. At this point, I think the best thing you can do in terms of improving your chances is to try your best to finish M3 strong with HP's or H's if possible. What's your plan for Step 2? Will you take it early enough for programs to see it? I think another strong showing on Step 2 can really make an impact.

As for your geographical preference, I think you should have no issues matching at a high tier program in the Northeast. Apart from the ones that @BioMajor2MD mentioned, I'd say that BIDMC, Penn, Yale, NYU, and Mt. Sinai are all in your target zone. JHU, MGH, and BWH are definitely somewhat "reachy" as others have noted, but one must reach. You can't get in if you don't try. I would take this same mentality in terms of away rotations too. At the end of the day, it's a way to get known and make connections with the right people. I would not put much credence into the intimidation stories that people tell. If you honored IM at your home institution, you can do honors-level work at any of those top programs too. Take confidence in that. So, personally, I would go for the away. I think your reasoning in the OP was intuitive and correct; if you think it might be a reach on paper, then it would probably behoove you to try to gain an edge in another way. I think if you're personable and on your A game during the away, the worst that can happen is that it ends up being a totally neutral point /waste of $. I really don't think it can hurt.

 

[Dwan]

First of all, congratulations on the Step 1 score and IM honors. I'd confidently say that, based on Step 1 score alone, all doors are open with a 250+. And, from what I've read, an "H" in IM clerkship is considered an unspoken prerequisite to match at top tier IM programs, which makes sense, so you've done well to check that box. At this point, I think the best thing you can do in terms of improving your chances is to try your best to finish M3 strong with HP's or H's if possible. What's your plan for Step 2? Will you take it early enough for programs to see it? I think another strong showing on Step 2 can really make an impact.

As for your geographical preference, I think you should have no issues matching at a high tier program in the Northeast. Apart from the ones that @BioMajor2MD mentioned, I'd say that BIDMC, Penn, Yale, NYU, and Mt. Sinai are all in your target zone. JHU, MGH, and BWH are definitely somewhat "reachy" as others have noted, but one must reach. You can't get in if you don't try. I would take this same mentality in terms of away rotations too. At the end of the day, it's a way to get known and make connections with the right people. I would not put much credence into the intimidation stories that people tell. If you honored IM at your home institution, you can do honors-level work at any of those top programs too. Take confidence in that. So, personally, I would go for the away. I think your reasoning in the OP was intuitive and correct; if you think it might be a reach on paper, then it would probably behoove you to try to gain an edge in another way. I think if you're personable and on your A game during the away, the worst that can happen is that it ends up being a totally neutral point /waste of $. I really don't think it can hurt.

That's a bit high of a target zone I think, only if they were coming from a top tier school like the poster above would that be true. It's worth an app, but I wouldn't say chances are good at those without research or AOA.

 

[agnes5]

First of all, congratulations on the Step 1 score and IM honors. I'd confidently say that, based on Step 1 score alone, all doors are open with a 250+. And, from what I've read, an "H" in IM clerkship is considered an unspoken prerequisite to match at top tier IM programs, which makes sense, so you've done well to check that box. At this point, I think the best thing you can do in terms of improving your chances is to try your best to finish M3 strong with HP's or H's if possible. What's your plan for Step 2? Will you take it early enough for programs to see it? I think another strong showing on Step 2 can really make an impact.

As for your geographical preference, I think you should have no issues matching at a high tier program in the Northeast. Apart from the ones that @BioMajor2MD mentioned, I'd say that BIDMC, Penn, Yale, NYU, and Mt. Sinai are all in your target zone. JHU, MGH, and BWH are definitely somewhat "reachy" as others have noted, but one must reach. You can't get in if you don't try. I would take this same mentality in terms of away rotations too. At the end of the day, it's a way to get known and make connections with the right people. I would not put much credence into the intimidation stories that people tell. If you honored IM at your home institution, you can do honors-level work at any of those top programs too. Take confidence in that. So, personally, I would go for the away. I think your reasoning in the OP was intuitive and correct; if you think it might be a reach on paper, then it would probably behoove you to try to gain an edge in another way. I think if you're personable and on your A game during the away, the worst that can happen is that it ends up being a totally neutral point /waste of $. I really don't think it can hurt.

That's a bit high of a target zone I think, only if they were coming from a top tier school like the poster above would that be true. It's worth an app, but I wouldn't say chances are good at those without research or AOA.

My friend, as I mentioned above with similar stats to OP at my school, didn't even get invited to BIDMC or NYU, which I was quite shocked about. Also, from what I have found talking with other applicants and my home applicants, Penn is very picky and has some very specific school biases.

 

[DBV]

Current MS3 (completed 5/8 rotations)
My profile:
- Mid-tier institution
- Year 1 and 2 - unranked
- Step 1: 250-255
- Current Year 3 grades (system of H/HP/P): mix of HPs and Ps so far, IM honors.
- Research is ok, not amazing. a few abstracts.
- Assuming not AOA

1. I am interested in East Coast, preferably Northeast. I am looking to apply to ~30 programs. What would be some good mid-to-high tier places I should be applying to?

2. If I wanted to apply to very competitive places(bwh,mgh,presb), would it be advisable to do aways there given that I don't check off all their boxes (no aoa, ok research, ok but not terrible grades)? Any helpful input would be appreciated.

FWIW, compelling life story.

N=1 but I am at a mid tier, unranked, step 1 and 2 ck in 250s, similar 3rd year grades with probably better research. Didn't do any aways.

I am interviewing at Hopkins, Duke, Vanderbilt, Yale, Emory, Penn, Pitt to name a few. I didn't appy to any boston on NYC programs but seeing as how our apps are pretty similar, nothing should be off the table for you.