I'm stuck - what should I do? (Clinical Psychology PhD applications)

[psychmango]

Hi all!

I've been stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I'm looking for your guidance and thoughts.

This is my first Clinical Psychology PhD application cycle - and due to geographical restraints (I bought a condo with my partner last year in the greater NYC area)- I applied to 6 schools within 1.5 hrs of my new place.

My undergraduate GPA was 3.1 (I struggled with undiagnosed ADHD at the time), but I have a 4.3 postbacc GPA from an ivy league. I have 5+ years of research experience on large-scale federally-funded studies at an R1 institution, 2 of those years I spent as a research coordinator. I have volunteer clinical experience as a crisis text line counselor, 6 poster presentation (3 first author, 2 second author), 2 manuscripts in prep (both first author) and 4 glowing LORs from full professors in the clinical psychiatry sphere (1 of which is our associate division director). I also think I had a pretty compelling SOP.

Out of the 6 schools I applied to, I got invited to interviews for 3.

I was particularly interested in the Clinical Psychology Doctoral Program at my top choice institution (I was so impressed with the specialized training within that department – and the fit felt perfect between my experience and interests and the interests of my POI). After my interviews, I was waitlisted but unfortunately not admitted. My POI at this institution reached out after the decision came through, mentioning that we should stay connected should I not be satisfied with my other offers - and noting that many applicants re-apply in subsequent years.

Now, I’m facing a tough decision: whether to accept an offer from either of the two (mostly) self-funded clinical psychology programs I got into, or reapply next year. If I reapply, I'd probably consider applying to some out-of-state schools The prospect of reapplying next year is sort of scary - I'm not a gambler, I'm 26 years old (going on 27), and with the educational landscape changing and funding being affected, I imagine that the cycle next year will be even more competitive.

The self-funded programs are APA-accredited and seem to be well respected, with decent EPPP pass rates and APA-internship match rates that range from 98-100% over the past 4 years. I am debt free and knew that I'd likely have to take out loans for future schooling which is why I went to a public undergrad institution. I do have spousal and parental financial support as well, so I do think it will be manageable - but I'd still have to take out loans and potentially work part-time.

I've been obsessing and stressing over this decision, as it feels so huge and impactful. If you have any 2-cents, please share them with me. Any thoughts/insights are appreciated!!

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[psych.meout]

As long as the only thing geographically restricting you is the condo, if I were in your situation, I'd decline the unfunded offers and reapply next year. The cost of both tuition and living in NYC is too much expense IMHO, but I'm also more conservative when it comes to debt and finances. One potential plan could be applying broadly to fully funded programs that meet your goals and interests and then renting out your condo while you're in grad school. That could help fund living expenses and/or partially pay down your condo while you're in grad school.

I know someone who bought a condo to live in for grad school and sold it for a healthy profit when they left for internship. They ended up well in the black by doing this and going to a fully funded program.

 

[WisNeuro]

As long as the only thing geographically restricting you is the condo, if I were in your situation, I'd decline the unfunded offers and reapply next year. The cost of both tuition and living in NYC is too much expense IMHO, but I'm also more conservative when it comes to debt and finances. One potential plan could be applying broadly to fully funded programs that meet your goals and interests and then renting out your condo while you're in grad school. That could help fund living expenses and/or partially pay down your condo while you're in grad school.

I know someone who bought a condo to live in for grad school and sold it for a healthy profit when they left for internship. They ended up well in the black by doing this and going to a fully funded program.

I'm one of those who owned a home and rented it out while doing grad school, internship, and postdoc elsewhere.

 

[psychmango]

I'm one of those who owned a home and rented it out while doing grad school, internship, and postdoc elsewhere.

As long as the only thing geographically restricting you is the condo, if I were in your situation, I'd decline the unfunded offers and reapply next year. The cost of both tuition and living in NYC is too much expense IMHO, but I'm also more conservative when it comes to debt and finances. One potential plan could be applying broadly to fully funded programs that meet your goals and interests and then renting out your condo while you're in grad school. That could help fund living expenses and/or partially pay down your condo while you're in grad school.

I know someone who bought a condo to live in for grad school and sold it for a healthy profit when they left for internship. They ended up well in the black by doing this and going to a fully funded program.

I appreciate this idea - unfortunately there's a renting moratorium at the moment (likely to be lifted in the next few years) and it would impact my partner's living situation too as we are in the ideal location for his work... it's tricky

 

[WisNeuro]

I appreciate this idea - unfortunately there's a renting moratorium at the moment (likely to be lifted in the next few years) and it would impact my partner's living situation too as we are in the ideal location for his work... it's tricky

It'll get even trickier when it comes time for internship/postdoc.

 

[psychmango]

It'll get even trickier when it comes time for internship/postdoc.

My biggest concern with reapplying next cycle is with my chances on getting in anywhere. I've heard from others that each year these programs get more and more competitive, and on top of political turmoil and the defunding of institutions of higher education, I'm worried next year may be even more difficult. Do you have any thoughts on this? Considering my academic background & qualifications?

 

[WisNeuro]

My biggest concern with reapplying next cycle is with my chances on getting in anywhere. I've heard from others that each year these programs get more and more competitive, and on top of political turmoil and the defunding of institutions of higher education, I'm worried next year may be even more difficult. Do you have any thoughts on this? Considering my academic background & qualifications?

This is a personal decision. Personally, I would not have accepted anything less than fully funded, as I'm fairly conservative finance-wise. Furthermore, I prioritized best available options and did not have many geographical limitations as I wanted to set myself up with maximum flexibility career-wise. Your geographical restriction will be a barrier at every step along the way. You're going to have to run the numbers and decide what's important in the long run.

 

[summerbabe]

My biggest concern with reapplying next cycle is with my chances on getting in anywhere. I've heard from others that each year these programs get more and more competitive, and on top of political turmoil and the defunding of institutions of higher education, I'm worried next year may be even more difficult. Do you have any thoughts on this? Considering my academic background & qualifications?

This is pure speculation on my part but I think self pay programs are likely to become less competitive, not more (or remain the same).

Free standing professional schools like to make money so adding more students helps their bottom line.

PsyDs attached to universities may admit more students in the coming years as the parent institutions struggle with overall enrollment and potential loss in federal funding since self funded PsyDs are likely a money maker that can help subsidize other operations.

Hard to say what’s gonna happen with funded programs but I can definitely see things getting more challenging in that area.

 

[PsyDr]

A. There are a LOT of unmentioned variables that could help your own analysis:
1. What is the graduation rate of those two programs?
2. How many positions are available in your prospective interest, of the current 55 internships accepting student, in the city metroplex? How many applicants do they receive? What is the acceptance rate?
3. How many post docs, in your prospective area of interest, are there in the city? How many slots per place?
4. How many well paying jobs are there in the city (surprisingly, many jobs in the city do not pay great)? Googletrends or something like that could nail that down.
5. How does your spouse feel about potentially moving for internship? Postdoc? Job? Is there a timeline on that (e.g., promotion, etc)?
6. What is the mutually agreed upon plans for a child? Plan on kids, no kids, adoption, "whatever happens"?
a. If "No Kids"
i. How sure are you, that neither party will change their opinion? Nail that down.
b. If "Kids"
i. What is the timeline for that plan?
ii. What are the details of that child plan, (e.g., childcare, finances, social, educational, etc)?
iii. What is the likelihood that the child bearer will "take a few years off" (i.e., take 5-30 years off). What are the financial plans for that?
7. What is the mutually agreed upon financial and lifestyle plan (e.g., "If I get $200k in debt, at 7%, and have to pay $1,500/month, while making $150k, how will that affect our retirement plans, housing plans, educational plans, vacation plans, etc? If you work until ???pm, and I am in grad school until ???PM, when will we see each other? For the ??? holiday, we will go to ???? household for ??? days, which coincides with ????. )?


You should be able to nail down these variable quickly. You can't plan everything, but someone could probably chain the likelihoods of some of those variables. It is a LOT easier to look at numbers

 

[R. Matey]

My biggest concern with reapplying next cycle is with my chances on getting in anywhere. I've heard from others that each year these programs get more and more competitive, and on top of political turmoil and the defunding of institutions of higher education, I'm worried next year may be even more difficult. Do you have any thoughts on this? Considering my academic background & qualifications?

It sounds like the person who reach out to you didn't share this concern. Perhaps asking them about the funding landscape might be worth an email.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

We might be able to give some additional insights if you mention the schools by name. If you are comfortable with that.

 

[R. Matey]

I really don't recommend anyone going into this field now. If you started your PhD program now, you likely won't enter the job market until 2035. The downward market pressures are only going to get worse in the coming years; there will be fewer internship and post-doc slots as universities and mental health agencies face federal funding cuts; there are essentially no good prospects for teaching careers; private practice is facing more pressure from insurance companies to lower costs (and from master's level practitioners); and the growth of AI technologies will reshape the entire field within 5 years. I left academia in 2014 to pursue a combination of consulting work and 3-5 hours/wk of private practice, and one other thing: real estate. I'm based in NYC (Manhattan), and have made most of my net income from savvy real estate decisions (basically, I bought my first NYC apartment shortly after my postdoc, then sold, bought, sold, bought...for the last 10 years). Think about it, you have the chance to take the exit ramp right now. "Don't go into the light".

lol, I can think of a more secure field than real estate. Maybe artist?

 

[Sanman]

If you don't want to share the program a few additional thoughts and questions:

1. Is the program you were accepted to in NYC?
2. What are your career interests?

Some additional info, NYC has a system of competitive selection for clinical rotations similar to internship. This means that you have to compete with all the other NYC program students for placement. Very important if your interests are something competitive like neuropsych. Less important I'd you want to be a generalist paychodynamic therapist. This does not exist at other programs outside NYC. I competed with my classmates (8 of them) for placements, but we were all selected with different interests in mind. So, I was essentially guaranteed my pre-internship neuropsych placements (as were the child/peds people,etc).

Self-funded programs also often have few opportunities for teaching/research if you want to build up that part of your CV. I would inquire about that now if you have those interests.

 

[PsyDr]

I really don't recommend anyone going into this field now. If you started your PhD program now, you likely won't enter the job market until 2035. The downward market pressures are only going to get worse in the coming years; there will be fewer internship and post-doc slots as universities and mental health agencies face federal funding cuts; there are essentially no good prospects for teaching careers; private practice is facing more pressure from insurance companies to lower costs (and from master's level practitioners); and the growth of AI technologies will reshape the entire field within 5 years. I left academia in 2014 to pursue a combination of consulting work and 3-5 hours/wk of private practice, and one other thing: real estate. I'm based in NYC (Manhattan), and have made most of my net income from savvy real estate decisions (basically, I bought my first NYC apartment shortly after my postdoc, then sold, bought, sold, bought...for the last 10 years). Think about it, you have the chance to take the exit ramp right now. "Don't go into the light".

Your premise is:

1) Life is about to get harder for everyone.
AND
2) The profession that treats misery is going to have less demand.

Tell me more about being in a real estate market that has declined 22% in the last 2.5 years.

 

[Peacemaker36]

It seems extremely unlikely to me that AI is going to replace human connection. I am excited to see how AI develops as a therapy tool. I am hopeful that AI will eventually take over note writing, especially in hospital settings.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I’d be more concerned for midlevels trying to make $$ bc fellowship-trained psychologists should always be able to carve out a niche. I still would have moderate reservations about recommending ppl become psychologists, but at a minimum, only consider fully-funded programs.

 

[R. Matey]

I still would recommend being a psychologist to people, but also try to set realistic expectations and, yes, definitely attend a fully funded program. The need for mental health services are great and many mid-levels are not adequately trained to meet the demand and complexity of clinical practice.

 

[Sanman]

I’d be more concerned for midlevels trying to make $$ bc fellowship-trained psychologists should always be able to carve out a niche. I still would have moderate reservations about recommending ppl become psychologists, but at a minimum, only consider fully-funded programs.

I will say that I would have concerns about entering a program now as training sites are most vulnerable to funding problems. This may mean gaps in training. For example, I saw few folks competent on assessment that were not dedicated to neuropsych and the reason was minimal general assessment training.

Now, this is great news for me as someone well trained in assessment. Less competition from well-trained young folks.