IMG and Plans for Residency

[geekozoid]

Hey everyone,

I am making this post/discussion cause I think I can turn to you guys for some legitimate and honest input. Recently, I am taking up a medical school seat in Ireland at a school called RCSI/Royal College of Surgeons. Because of its reputation in the US and around the world, I am incredibly happy going. BUT I have a major yet popular concern. I want to come back to the US ultimately and practice medicine in the US. Because I'm originally from the east coast, I would like to establish my career there, ideally starting with residency. Yes, I know I haven't even taken my USMLE exam and I haven't even started yet. But I want to be prepared in terms of information and guidance, so when the time comes, I can take the initiative. I would love to do a surgical specialty, and internal as a backup. YES, I understand international students have it harder and I made that decision when I accepted my seat and I may end up doing more work and spending a slightly longer period of time getting a residency.

For now, the information and advice I received was the following. The medical school does allow students to go to Columbia University, John Hopkins University, etc. do some coursework there, but this is from a third-party site, I still have to confirm this. Also, they have very good matching rates with various specialties. Granted, it won't be as high as US graduates, but its still decent, so I should take my chances. Surgical residency is already competitive enough and so I know I'm already at a significant disadvantage, BUT I have heard very positive results from many people getting into a decent/prestigious/competitive residency program with no problem or delay! I also know its usually my third and fourth year is where this is most important, but nothing wrong with being ahead right?

So my question is, what can I do to be one of these people??? I would like to get into a decent residency, somewhere urban like LA, Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. How can I make myself stand out so when I do apply I can get accepted? When and who should I contact when the time comes, I can make myself a more ideal candidate?? How often should I keep in touch with whoever is important to my chances?? I'll post/provide more info once I get out some information here from the forum. Please do not hesitate to ask questions!!! Sorry for the long post, too!

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[W19]

Good grades... High step1 score (240+)... Research. This is also true for AMG with a little room for error.

 

[Say]

It may be tough over there to do well on the step because the curriculum will not in any way be directed towards the step. You will have to really do a lot of work outside of the coursework to make sure you are covering your bases with respect to the step. Other foreign med schools, like Caribbean, aim to get students back in the US so they direct their coursework to the step. Unfortunately, you will still be considered an IMG during the match regardless of the status of your school. In addition to what W19 said, I would work hard to make connections with physicians in your specialty of interest when you are at home. Those letter of recs will be essential.

 

[22031 Alum]

Unfortunately, you will still be considered an IMG during the match regardless of the status of your school.

This is true, in that OP will be considered an IMG, but in my specialty at least, a strong applicant from a highly ranked Commonwealth/European school will NOT be lumped together with applicants from the Caribbean. There's a graduate from RCSI training at Brigham right now, and I guarantee that applications from Caribbean schools don't even get a glance there. But you have to have a worthy application, which is hard, just like it is for American medical students. The best thing you can do for yourself now is put yourself in a position to have a high class rank and high Step scores- study study study. Get involved with research and try to get published. Finally, try to make stateside connections- network at conferences (even better if you are presenting research!) and do elective rotations.

 

[bashwell]

Anecdotally, I know of strong IMGs from Australia who are at solid places (e.g. Mayo Clinic, Yale), albeit in not very competitive specialties. Although they've got great grades, USMLE scores on all Steps 240+, USCE with (presumably) great LORs, several publications, probably more stuff I don't know about, etc.

 

[Say]

This is true, in that OP will be considered an IMG, but in my specialty at least, a strong applicant from a highly ranked Commonwealth/European school will NOT be lumped together with applicants from the Caribbean. There's a graduate from RCSI training at Brigham right now, and I guarantee that applications from Caribbean schools don't even get a glance there. But you have to have a worthy application, which is hard, just like it is for American medical students. The best thing you can do for yourself now is put yourself in a position to have a high class rank and high Step scores- study study study. Get involved with research and try to get published. Finally, try to make stateside connections- network at conferences (even better if you are presenting research!) and do elective rotations.

This is interesting. I figured reputable foreign medical schools would have a leg up, but aren't all IMGs clumped together? That's how it appears from the NMRP

 

[Wordead]

This is interesting. I figured reputable foreign medical schools would have a leg up, but aren't all IMGs clumped together? That's how it appears from the NMRP

Does that really make sense to you

 

[22031 Alum]

This is true somewhat, but Ireland in particular has a reputation for being a easy backdoor option for US citizens; compared to say Great Britain.

Interesting! I didn't know that. I personally know several people who have matched very well in OB/GYN from Ireland (not counting the resident I mentioned earlier). I mean at the type of programs that are "DOs/Caribbean need not apply." But my experience is in OB only, I haven't stayed on top of general residency trends. Would OP be lumped in with Caribbean grads if they applied to Gen Surg??

 

[bashwell]

This is true somewhat, but Ireland in particular has a reputation for being a easy backdoor option for US citizens; compared to say Great Britain.

Hm, just curious, why's that? I thought reputation-wise both Ireland and UK medical schools would be more or less on par for US citizens (assuming similarly strong candidates). Say a US citizen who attended UCL or Imperial in London, or Trinity or RCSI in Dublin.

 

[geekozoid]

All interesting responses, some of which I disagree with, but overall respect the input. Hmm I see the most frequent suggestions are letters, good grades, and step scores. So letters are are very important obviously getting them from where I get my electives with the right person. Also, I see a good number of responses relating establishing connections. Maybe a dumb question, but where and how should I do make these connections exactly?? I feel like its hard unless you do some exceptional research OR you go out of your way to find the right connections? I'm a very easy person to get along and connect with so making connections for me isn't necessarily difficult. BUT I still need to be pointed in the right direction.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hm, just curious, why's that? I thought reputation-wise both Ireland and UK medical schools would be more or less on par for US citizens (assuming similarly strong candidates). Say a US citizen who attended UCL or Imperial in London, or Trinity or RCSI in Dublin.

No, they are still going to be seen as IMGs although there may be some bias in their favor compared to Caribbean or Mexico, et al.

The exceptions are US citizens living abroad in those respective countries (as was the situation in my case); certain biases by specific faculty and prior experience. One of my residency "mates" was a US citizen educated in HK, a very posh British boys school and one of the best known UK medical schools. No one thought of him (or I, by report) as FMGs. However, that was rare in those days and I venture things may have changed with an increase in US students studying on Commonwealth countries.

 

[bashwell]

No, they are still going to be seen as IMGs although there may be some bias in their favor compared to Caribbean or Mexico, et al.

The exceptions are US citizens living abroad in those respective countries (as was the situation in my case); certain biases by specific faculty and prior experience. One of my residency "mates" was a US citizen educated in HK, a very posh British boys school and one of the best known UK medical schools. No one thought of him (or I, by report) as FMGs. However, that was rare in those days and I venture things may have changed with an increase in US students studying on Commonwealth countries.

Thanks, Winged Scapula. I don't disagree and in fact I entirely agree with everything you've said. (By way of background I'm also a US citizen living abroad in Australia, and likely staying since half my family is here.)

That said, perhaps I should clarify, but I wasn't denying US citizens studying in UK/Commonwealth medical schools wouldn't be viewed as IMGs. Rather I was just wondering (purely out of curiosity as it doesn't actually affect me or anything) what SouthernSurgeon meant by saying Ireland has a reputation for being an easy backdoor option for US citizens in comparison to Great Britain? I thought more along your lines, if I understand you correctly (though I don't want to put words in your mouth and if I am doing so I apologise), that whether an American is from a medical school in Ireland or other parts of the UK (or Commonwealth), reputation-wise, they'd be more or less viewed the same i.e. as IMGs with little difference between Irish US-IMG vs British US-IMG. But of course I'm open to correction, and I trust you and SouthernSurgeon know much better than I do, and so I would happily defer to you guys at the end of the day. 🙂

 

[Elevencents]

Is there a reason you can't attend medical school in the U.S.? That would solve your problem.

 

[bashwell]

Ireland just has an easier pathway for entry for US students (go check out the 30 something pages on the atlantic bridge program).

I'm not saying it's "easy" to get into, but compared to British schools it is significantly easier and a more established pathway.

It's not really about the reputation of the schools relative to each other so much as the ease of or barrier to entry for a US citizen. You can pretty much guarantee that if a US student is studying at one of the top medical schools in London that student has something truly special to have gotten in.

Thanks, SouthernSurgeon. Makes sense now.

By the way, just for clarity's sake, I only mentioned "the reputation of the schools relative to each other" since that was what you originally brought up. But I understand what you mean now of course.

 

[Law2Doc]

This is true somewhat, but Ireland in particular has a reputation for being a easy backdoor option for US citizens; compared to say Great Britain.

Agreed. This was a decent path to be on in 1990 (and I know a few people of that vintage who snuck into competitive things via this route), but today it's probably not much better than being at one of the better Caribbean schools. At least with some of the Caribben places you do rotations in the US and so may have networking opportunities that can give you a shot at an interview.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hey everyone,

I am making this post/discussion cause I think I can turn to you guys for some legitimate and honest input. Recently, I am taking up a medical school seat in Ireland at a school called RCSI/Royal College of Surgeons. Because of its reputation in the US and around the world, I am incredibly happy going. BUT I have a major yet popular concern. I want to come back to the US ultimately and practice medicine in the US. Because I'm originally from the east coast, I would like to establish my career there, ideally starting with residency. Yes, I know I haven't even taken my USMLE exam and I haven't even started yet. But I want to be prepared in terms of information and guidance, so when the time comes, I can take the initiative. I would love to do a surgical specialty, and internal as a backup. YES, I understand international students have it harder and I made that decision when I accepted my seat and I may end up doing more work and spending a slightly longer period of time getting a residency.

For now, the information and advice I received was the following. The medical school does allow students to go to Columbia University, John Hopkins University, etc. do some coursework there, but this is from a third-party site, I still have to confirm this. Also, they have very good matching rates with various specialties. Granted, it won't be as high as US graduates, but its still decent, so I should take my chances. Surgical residency is already competitive enough and so I know I'm already at a significant disadvantage, BUT I have heard very positive results from many people getting into a decent/prestigious/competitive residency program with no problem or delay! I also know its usually my third and fourth year is where this is most important, but nothing wrong with being ahead right?

So my question is, what can I do to be one of these people??? I would like to get into a decent residency, somewhere urban like LA, Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. How can I make myself stand out so when I do apply I can get accepted? When and who should I contact when the time comes, I can make myself a more ideal candidate?? How often should I keep in touch with whoever is important to my chances?? I'll post/provide more info once I get out some information here from the forum. Please do not hesitate to ask questions!!! Sorry for the long post, too!

Two problems with your post -- you are being picky about specialty and geography. IMGs get to be neither. You don't really get to shoot for surgery in Boston. Not gonna happen. Beggars dont get to be choosers, im afraid. You are gonna have to be a total Superstar just to get a shot at some community IM program in a part of the US that's underserved and geographically "undesirable" to US applicants. And that's IF you are the ideal candidate. If not, some guy from Ross or SGU with high steps and better connections will snag that spot from you. Match rates for foreign grads are already very low and projected to be lower by the time you apply. Best to run scared, not dream.

 

[22031 Alum]

Agreed. This was a decent path to be on in 1990 (and I know a few people of that vintage who snuck into competitive things via this route), but today it's probably not much better than being at one of the better Caribbean schools. At least with some of the Caribben places you do rotations in the US and so may have networking opportunities that can give you a shot at an interview.

Wow. That's so wildly different from my experience with application cycles, even as recently as this past year. I've never heard anything even remotely close to that sentiment. Maybe it's regional.

 

[AnalisCanalis]

Two problems with your post -- you are being picky about specialty and geography. IMGs get to be neither. You don't really get to shoot for surgery in Boston. Not gonna happen. Beggars dont get to be choosers, im afraid. You are gonna have to be a total Superstar just to get a shot at some community IM program in a part of the US that's underserved and geographically "undesirable" to US applicants. And that's IF you are the ideal candidate. If not, some guy from Ross or SGU with high steps and better connections will snag that spot from you. Match rates for foreign grads are already very low and projected to be lower by the time you apply. Best to run scared, not dream.

While I agree with your sentiment, you are heavily exaggerating. Match rates for IMGs are over 50% in IM, and by evidence of the data many of them are far from being superstars.

 

[geekozoid]

^^ I agree with this statement, I think some of the information provided earlier is exaggerated as I have rarely heard of cases where IMGs have not gotten into decent IM residencies. But to clarify I'm a U.S. Citizen. I did hear from one program director at Cleveland clinic they did take a few Irish graduates over some U.S. Graduates simply cause they did better in school overall, their experience showed it.

 

[Law2Doc]

While I agree with your sentiment, you are heavily exaggerating. Match rates for IMGs are over 50% in IM, and by evidence of the data many of them are far from being superstars.

Someone is exaggerating here but I don't think it's me -- your match rate data is dubious. 53.1% of US IMGs matched into PGY1 positions in the last (2015) match (as compared to 93.9% of US seniors) according to the match statistics publication on the NRMP website. If you subtract out the prelims (which are often dead end) it's really less than a 50% chance to match into something categorical. Of those US IMGs who matched, 43.9% matched into IM. And as US enrollment increases, most pundits think things will be tighter going forward.

So again I think pining for surgery in Boston rather than some community IM place in an undesirable location is setting yourself up for failure. But hey, prove us wrong, beat the odds.

 

[W19]

....

 

[AnalisCanalis]

Someone is exaggerating here but I don't think it's me -- your match rate data is dubious. 53.1% of US IMGs matched into PGY1 positions in the last (2015) match (as compared to 93.9% of US seniors) according to the match statistics publication on the NRMP website. If you subtract out the prelims (which are often dead end) it's really less than a 50% chance to match into something categorical. Of those US IMGs who matched, 43.9% matched into IM. And as US enrollment increases, most pundits think things will be tighter going forward.

While we are dropping statistics, 176 independent applicants with a step 1 score <200 matched in IM 2014. Are they the superstars you are referring to?

 

[HughOS]

While I can see the point you're making about it being tougher for students studying in Ireland to match in the US (as with all IMGs), I don't think it's fair to say that you should give up aspirations to match in a particular residency because the overall IMG figures for it are poor. Like all IMGs it is hard for Irish students to secure residency in the states but it is very achievable. Looking at the stats from my own school in Dublin from 2014 90% (18/20) of those that applied to US and Canada matched in the first round and among those were general surgery, neurology, neurosurgery, orthopaedic surgery, EM, IM, paeds etc... It is hard but it's not impossible. Clearly going to a well regarded British or Irish medical school is not the same as going to the Carribbean.

It's also not representative to make out that its a lot easier to get into an Irish/UK school than a US one. Reading the Atlantic bridge thread yes the GPAs and MCATs are marginally lower but we're talking 3.5/6 vs 3.7/8 here. It's not like the US students getting places are slouches. All very academically accomplished individuals with strong applications and hard workers. Medical school is a pretty great equaliser by the end anyway.

Don't get me wrong, its going to require a lot more work namely because Irish schools teach to a curriculum designed for the Irish healthcare system so you will have to do most of your USMLE preparation yourself, you'll have to arrange your own US clinical experience and everything that goes with it. But the quality of education is excellent and pretty uniform. Universities in Ireland & Britain have been training physicians for hundreds of years, but there is a shortage of residencies in the US so it's natural and fair that local US graduates will get the first look in. It's up to you to be m0re prepared and show that you can be better than the person interviewing alongside you, but this is doable so don't be put off.

 

[Psai]

Medical school is not a great equalizer. The dos and caribs that I rotated with are definitely not as good as the people from my school

 

[Law2Doc]

While we are dropping statistics, 176 independent applicants with a step 1 score <200 matched in IM 2014. Are they the superstars you are referring to?

1. Step 1 is only part of the application, they could be superstars in countless other ways, including substantial research.

2. 176 out of thousands is a very small percentage and may have had connections with their program that made step 1 less of a barrier to matching.

I think some of you get too hung up on the numbers. While important, there will always be a handful who will get in despite them and a few who will never get in no matter what their score. So yes there will be superstars whose CVs are so absurdly amazing that they only have to pass step 1 to get a look. If you are an IMG and your only chance to differentiate yourself is step 1, you are probably going to have a tough time of it.

 

[Law2Doc]

While I can see the point you're making about it being tougher for students studying in Ireland to match in the US (as with all IMGs), I don't think it's fair to say that you should give up aspirations to match in a particular residency because the overall IMG figures for it are poor. Like all IMGs it is hard for Irish students to secure residency in the states but it is very achievable. Looking at the stats from my own school in Dublin from 2014 90% (18/20) of those that applied to US and Canada matched in the first round and among those were general surgery, neurology, neurosurgery, orthopaedic surgery, EM, IM, paeds etc... It is hard but it's not impossible. Clearly going to a well regarded British or Irish medical school is not the same as going to the Carribbean.

It's also not representative to make out that its a lot easier to get into an Irish/UK school than a US one. Reading the Atlantic bridge thread yes the GPAs and MCATs are marginally lower but we're talking 3.5/6 vs 3.7/8 here. It's not like the US students getting places are slouches. All very academically accomplished individuals with strong applications and hard workers. Medical school is a pretty great equaliser by the end anyway.

Don't get me wrong, its going to require a lot more work namely because Irish schools teach to a curriculum designed for the Irish healthcare system so you will have to do most of your USMLE preparation yourself, you'll have to arrange your own US clinical experience and everything that goes with it. But the quality of education is excellent and pretty uniform. Universities in Ireland & Britain have been training physicians for hundreds of years, but there is a shortage of residencies in the US so it's natural and fair that local US graduates will get the first look in. It's up to you to be m0re prepared and show that you can be better than the person interviewing alongside you, but this is doable so don't be put off.

One can certainly take a shot but I think you have to also be realistic, and know it's an absurd long shot. We all "know a guy" who beat the odds. A lot of us know lottery winners too. But it's foolish to ignore the data and talk seriously about being the exception who lands surgery, a moderately competitive field in Boston, a popular city for US applicants, while most IMGs are lucky to get ANY noncompetitive field in an undesirable location. So yeah I think you need to be a superstar to get Something at all in the match. It really has nothing to do with the quality of education you've gotten, and everything to do with the fact that this system is hugely stacked in favor of US grads. Again, you can take a longshot or two but you need to be cognizant that it's a longshot IMHO.

 

[HughOS]

One can certainly take a shot but I think you have to also be realistic, and know it's an absurd long shot. We all "know a guy" who beat the odds. A lot of us know lottery winners too. But it's foolish to ignore the data and talk seriously about being the exception who lands surgery, a moderately competitive field in Boston, a popular city for US applicants, while most IMGs are lucky to get ANY noncompetitive field in an undesirable location. So yeah I think you need to be a superstar to get Something at all in the match. It really has nothing to do with the quality of education you've gotten, and everything to do with the fact that this system is hugely stacked in favor of US grads. Again, you can take a longshot or two but you need to be cognizant that it's a longshot IMHO.

The stats are tough, but these are including a pool of applicants from all over the world and not just Irish schools. From the small sample sizes I've seen, in general the match rates for applicants to US from Ireland are between 70-90% in a given year. Theres a lot of variance because the numbers are small in comparison. I think it's fair to infer that you do have a much better chance of matching if you go to an Irish/UK school versus the rest of the IMG pool.

I actually agree with most of your post. The figures are grim for IMGs in general and many will never have a chance. But candidates from Ireland/UK have more in their favour and have shown pretty consistently that they are able to match into competitive specialties. The overall numbers we're talking are small because there aren't that many enrolled in European schools versus the Caribbean but the applicants are obviously more competitive because proportionally more of them are succeeding.

 

[Law2Doc]

The stats are tough, but these are including a pool of applicants from all over the world and not just Irish schools. From the small sample sizes I've seen, in general the match rates for applicants to US from Ireland are between 70-90% in a given year. Theres a lot of variance because the numbers are small in comparison. I think it's fair to infer that you do have a much better chance of matching if you go to an Irish/UK school versus the rest of the IMG pool.

I actually agree with most of your post. The figures are grim for IMGs in general and many will never have a chance. But candidates from Ireland/UK have more in their favour and have shown pretty consistently that they are able to match into competitive specialties. The overall numbers we're talking are small because there aren't that many enrolled in European schools versus the Caribbean but the applicants are obviously more competitive because proportionally more of them are succeeding.

I think lumping Ireland in as "UK" tries to give it more cache then a US PD would give it. Sort of like the Polish programs spinning themselves as "European". All IMGs have a harder road but places like Ireland, Poland, really aren't given the same weight as British, German schools, and are actually much more in the same pile as the Caribbean than some on here apparently want to believe.

As for the percentage succeeding I think you have to be skeptical of some of the claims of places that make money off US students. The worst offshore school will always claim a high match rate because it's good for marketing and virtually no enforcement. ive seen dead end prelim surgery spots spun into amazing matches in schools statistics, and I've seen people who matched into someplace competitive years ago still included in offshore school brochures. Unless the data is coming from the nrmp side of the equation you have to be extremely skeptical. There's big money to be made and no real penalty for fudging the numbers by these schools.

 

[bashwell]

Is there NRMP or similar data available which distinguish US-IMGs by place of study (e.g. UK, Ireland, Germany, Poland, India, etc.) and tracks how these groups did during the match into specialty x based on all the relevant data (e.g. USMLE scores)? That would probably help clear a lot of this up.

While we're on the topic, another program which seems to do well in the match for US-IMGs is Sackler in Israel.

 

[AnalisCanalis]

Is there NRMP or similar data available which distinguish US-IMGs by place of study (e.g. UK, Ireland, Germany, Poland, India, etc.) and tracks how these groups did during the match into specialty x based on all the relevant data (e.g. USMLE scores)? That would probably help clear a lot of this up.

While we're on the topic, another program which seems to do well in the match for US-IMGs is Sackler in Israel.

As a matter of fact there is:
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[bashwell]

As a matter of fact there is:
http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Thanks @AnalisCanalis. I see US-IMGs as distinguished from other IMGs. But I don't see US-IMGs further separated into nations where they studied (e.g. UK, Ireland, Israel)? Perhaps I'm missing the obvious?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks @AnalisCanalis. I see US-IMGs as distinguished from other IMGs. But I don't see US-IMGs further separated into nations where they studied (e.g. UK, Ireland, Israel)? Perhaps I'm missing the obvious?

NRMP doesn't publish that data as far as I know.

 

[HughOS]

Having a quick look through the report it doesn't break down match stats for US IMGs, but for non US IMGs the stats were more favourable for Irish schools than UK ones. 46 vs 20 went matched/unmatched of the Irish applicants as opposed to 37 vs 34 from UK schools. German applicants were 39 vs 32 matched/unmatched. Again these are small sample sizes so there is plenty of fluctuance year to year but I think the claim that Irish schools are seen in a "lesser" pool than those in the UK to PDs isn't accurate.

 

[Mad Jack]

NRMP doesn't publish that data as far as I know.

ECFMG has a report they published on it, but they only included the most common countries USIMGs studied in. Not many go to the UK and Ireland and try to come back to the US overall, so the data unfortunately doesn't include such students' match rates. I'm actually surprised that so few UK physicians come to the US- they don't even make up a large enough group, per year, to be included in the non-US IMG group.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Page 22 of the report (28 of the PDF) has match rates by country. Isn't particularly useful for this thread, but might be useful for future reference.

 

[Winged Scapula]

ECFMG has a report they published on it, but they only included the most common countries USIMGs studied in. Not many go to the UK and Ireland and try to come back to the US overall, so the data unfortunately doesn't include such students' match rates. I'm actually surprised that so few UK physicians come to the US- they don't even make up a large enough group, per year, to be included in the non-US IMG group.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

Page 22 of the report (28 of the PDF) has match rates by country. Isn't particularly useful for this thread, but might be useful for future reference.

Thanks for that. I knew the data was collected by NRMP but hadn't seen it disseminated anywhere.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Having a quick look through the report it doesn't break down match stats for US IMGs, but for non US IMGs the stats were more favourable for Irish schools than UK ones. 46 vs 20 went matched/unmatched of the Irish applicants as opposed to 37 vs 34 from UK schools. German applicants were 39 vs 32 matched/unmatched. Again these are small sample sizes so there is plenty of fluctuance year to year but I think the claim that Irish schools are seen in a "lesser" pool than those in the UK to PDs isn't accurate.

I agree. Perhaps I've worked with a different breed of program directors but I've never heard anything negative about schools or students from the Irish Republic. They are definitely not seen as on par with Caribbean students.

UCD or Trinity aren't as well known as the Royal College but they're all still highly respected IMHO.

 

[bashwell]

I'm actually surprised that so few UK physicians come to the US- they don't even make up a large enough group, per year, to be included in the non-US IMG group.

Anecdotally there are heaps of UK and Irish physicians here in Australia. I suppose it's a Commonwealth thing.

Also anecdotally I know of two U.S. IMGs from Irish med schools who recently matched in EM at top programs.

 

[Goro]

The PDs whom we poll would disagree with you, at least for my students.

Medical school is not a great equalizer. The DOs ... that I rotated with are definitely not as good as the people from my school

 

[Mad Jack]

Medical school is not a great equalizer. The dos and caribs that I rotated with are definitely not as good as the people from my school

This is highly school dependent. My school has an excellent reputation clinically, per what actual precepting physicians have told me in years past.

 

[22031 Alum]

Perhaps I've worked with a different breed of program directors but I've never heard anything negative about schools or students from the Irish Republic. They are definitely not seen as on par with Caribbean students.

My experience in OB has been similar. I've seen programs that will put an application from a Caribbean student with a 260 straight in the "reject" pile, interview/rank/match applicants from Irish schools. Granted, those applicants were all stellar- but at that level, you have to be.

 

[geekozoid]

Well from my point of view, I can see it is definitely possible for IMGs to get into a good/decent/competitive residencies around the country, if they invest the time and energy in distinguishing themselves. I would like to mention factors to consider about IMGs and comparing the statistics and all this information. CAUTION: Some of this information may be obvious. Essentially, there are about 200 countries around the world, all of which have medical schools of some sort. But not all of these schools teach in English, some schools teach in their native language. For example, in Italy, Humanitis University teaches many of their lectures and materials in Italian. So imagine coming from a country where English IS NOT a native language. This puts many IMGs who wish to come to the US at a disadvantage who don't speak English fluently. As the USMLE is all in English, it affects many many IMGs. Secondly, I also believe citizenship has a major influence on residency programs and their ideal choices to fill in the positions. They simply don't want to deal with the hassle of immigration. So yes, the statistics are true, many IMGs are not first choices in addition to the many other factors. BUT it is important to include and recall ALL the factors when talking about statistics and assuming that residency programs view ALL IMGs the same clump regardless of where you come from. Yes, it is required to be better than most US applicants to be accepted into a tough residency, however I don't believe you need to be a "superstar" to be in a residency program. Yes obviously someone from Oxford medicine will get higher chances at getting residency than someone from the Caribbean, at least I hope. But you don't have to go to Oxford to be a good candidate. I feel this is especially true if you are a US citizen, born and raised, and simply went to a foreign medical school. I am confident in my opinion cause, I have collected information from many different resources about this topic. The NRMP-ECFMG also shows similar results. YES I DO AGREE, I will need to prep more thoroughly on your own for the USLME, but realistically, its always an independent study kind of thing. I, in fact, have met an invasive cardiologist, who did his residency at Duke University and then a fellowship in Cleveland Clinic AND he's not a US citizen but graduated in Ireland from NUIG (National University of Ireland in Galway). Again these are my just thoughts, and experiences. Please feel free to share your thoughts, I respect all opinions equally, so don't hesitate to be honest.

 

[geekozoid]

So from the many responses, I need to do research, network a lot, and do very well on my steps and grades? Anything else to suggest?

 

[HughOS]

US clinical experience and letters of recommendation are of great benefit if you can get them. Work on interview skills, put together a great CV that is well written and impressive. Individual module grades aren't as important for IMGs but if you have any distinctions or awards for academic achievement this would be a good thing to include.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Complete as many US rotations early during your last year as possible, getting LOR's from them. Specifically, complete a SubI in the US if possible.

 

[addidas]

Having a quick look through the report it doesn't break down match stats for US IMGs, but for non US IMGs the stats were more favourable for Irish schools than UK ones. 46 vs 20 went matched/unmatched of the Irish applicants as opposed to 37 vs 34 from UK schools. German applicants were 39 vs 32 matched/unmatched. Again these are small sample sizes so there is plenty of fluctuance year to year but I think the claim that Irish schools are seen in a "lesser" pool than those in the UK to PDs isn't accurate.

As a British medical student I find the discrepancy in the matched/unmatched data between Ireland and the UK intriguing; it won't be due to different standards in education. Could it be a case of Irish schools having better links for USCE due to the Atlantic bridge?

 

[bashwell]

Certainly it significantly helps to have USCE, especially with established links between medical schools. Not just because it's required at some programs and for LORs, but also face time and getting the right people to know you and hopefully or ideally go to bat for you to help you get an interview.

 

[HughOS]

As a British medical student I find the discrepancy in the matched/unmatched data between Ireland and the UK intriguing; it won't be due to different standards in education. Could it be a case of Irish schools having better links for USCE due to the Atlantic bridge?

There are some links for USCE but many individuals I know organise their own electives without using school connections as they can be limited in number. I think it could be down to the fact that there is more of a tradition for Irish medical students and doctors in general to emigrate and train abroad than there is for UK ones. Proportionally Ireland does send a lot of docs abroad for training and not just to the US but to the UK/Can/Australia/NZ also. I don't think that same tradition exists in the UK so perhaps the channels aren't as well established.

 

[MS7]

Hi guys. Need a little help here. I'm a medical student currently studying in Pakistan and I want to do my residency (preferably in Psychiatry) somewhere abroad. Right now my preferences are anywhere in the UK, New Zealand, Australia. I'm considering USA too but I've heard it's too competitive over there. I don't know much about how to apply, when to apply,what exams to give, what the requirements are and how are the job prospects for the above-mentioned countries The thing is that I don't have much information on how to go about this, so a little help would be much appreciated. 🙂

 

[bashwell]

Hi guys. Need a little help here. I'm a medical student currently studying in Pakistan and I want to do my residency (preferably in Psychiatry) somewhere abroad. Right now my preferences are anywhere in the UK, New Zealand, Australia. I'm considering USA too but I've heard it's too competitive over there. I don't know much about how to apply, when to apply,what exams to give, what the requirements are and how are the job prospects for the above-mentioned countries The thing is that I don't have much information on how to go about this, so a little help would be much appreciated. 🙂

It sounds like you're casting a very wide net. Might be best to focus. Do you have a passport/residency/citizenship to any of the nations you've listed? If you do, then I'd prioritise the nation(s) where you have citizenship first, then worry about the others later. By the way, UK, Australia and NZ aren't easy! Things are getting very competitive here too.

This is a helpful resource for Australia:

http://www.doctorconnect.gov.au

 

[MassDoc1]

We have had several grads from Irish schools through our program in some competitive specialties (ophtho; orthopedics; urology), and they have done exceptionally well. As you'd expect, they generally just seemed to have done enough of the right things to get there (prior U.S. electives, high step scores and/or research, etc.)--just as an AMG usually needs to do. I believe our PD regards the Irish schools where they've come from as being a good source of high quality, well-trained candidates--comparable to a reputable U.S. school (and now there's a track record here, for those schools). Matching success then still depends on the particular person's specific profile and personal qualities.