IMG v. AMG once and for all lets end the debate

[Braingames]

Ok this crazy debate gets everyone fired up and in a non-flaming way I would like to clear up some of the views-

Now all I hear is the IMG's saying how they are equal or better than AMG's. Now I am talking about the majority-there are excpetions to every rule but in general this is what is said on these boards. Also I am talking about AMERICAN IMG's that do not hack getting in here and go out of country.

Now an american IMG cannot hack getting into an american school, they do not have the credentials and the foreign schools are well known to have sub-par 3rd year clerkships compared to american schools IN GENERAL. Now when you combine a lesser qualified student in general with a little bit worse training-how does this equate in general to IMG's being superior or equal to us?

I think this is evidenced by IMG's filling the less than desirable, poorer programs out there in a vast higher rate than any AMGs

Now this is my thought-please teach me why I am wrong without flaming me-I think this is the view had by almost every PD I have spoke of and attending etc. They all have quite a negative view of foreign students. Again not talking about people who were born there and trained-for example Indian docs are some of the smartest docs I know. Ok so convince me, poeple like obfan-why you are equal to me?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Solideliquid]

We really don't need this. I'm an IMG, and I refuse to prove anything to you. Just for the record, I think in the end it comes down to how "human" you choose to act, how kind your actions are towards others.

If you want to feel superior to others, that is your choice. I'm a doctor, if I was an AMG I wouldn't feel superior to IMGs, and I wouldn't feel the need to be superior.

I think the figure now is 25% of all physicians are IMGs, I think a large percentage of that figure are americans who couldn't "cut it" in a US Med school. Another interesting fact, I think that about half of all applicants to medical across the US get denied every year, if some of these people choose to enter a foreign medical school how do you know they couldn't "cut it" if they were given the chance. Most of these "denied" have high GPAs and great achievements.

I don't really know what else to say.

 

[maranatha]

Solideliquid, you responded with class. But I hope nobody else gets drawn into this.

Braingames = Analzethis?

 

[i61164]

Hey, while we are at it, let's throw MD vs. DO into the mix. How about Caribbean vs. DO?

I am not trying to flame here, but this sort of debate reeks of "premed."

Do you think that if you use statistics to "prove" that AMGs are better than IMGs, that the IMGs on this board are going to agree with you? That they are going to say that you are better than they are?

Do you think that everyone that beat you on the MCAT is better than you? What if someone beat you by 3 points on the MCAT, but didn't get into a U.S. school? Does it really matter?

People don't really appreciate being stereotyped. We are all individuals.

 

[guarana]

Solideliquid, you responded with class. But I hope nobody else gets drawn into this.

Braingames = Analzethis?

Wondering the same thing. Actually, my thoughts from perusing this forum while studying for the Steps:
Braingames= Analyzethis=DocWall$treet=Ramoray ?

Coming to a psych residency near you!!!

 

[OBfan]

Ok this crazy debate gets everyone fired up and in a non-flaming way I would like to clear up some of the views-

Now all I hear is the IMG's saying how they are equal or better than AMG's. Now I am talking about the majority-there are excpetions to every rule but in general this is what is said on these boards. Also I am talking about AMERICAN IMG's that do not hack getting in here and go out of country.

Now an american IMG cannot hack getting into an american school, they do not have the credentials and the foreign schools are well known to have sub-par 3rd year clerkships compared to american schools IN GENERAL. Now when you combine a lesser qualified student in general with a little bit worse training-how does this equate in general to IMG's being superior or equal to us?

I think this is evidenced by IMG's filling the less than desirable, poorer programs out there in a vast higher rate than any AMGs

Now this is my thought-please teach me why I am wrong without flaming me-I think this is the view had by almost every PD I have spoke of and attending etc. They all have quite a negative view of foreign students. Again not talking about people who were born there and trained-for example Indian docs are some of the smartest docs I know. Ok so convince me, poeple like obfan-why you are equal to me?

I never said that I was equal to you and having this debate with you is such a waste of time. I feel that every applicant is an individual and brings different things to the table come interview time. To say that one applicant is less qualified than another because they went to a foreign medical school is, in my opinion, a pretty closed minded thing to do.

I didnt apply to medical schools in the US because I didnt want to waste any time. I had a 10-10-12 on the MCAT and a 3.2 in Chemical Engineering. I was competitive but I was older and I wanted to get on with my career. Therefore, when you say things like "Can't Hack getting into a US medical school" it makes you sound pretty ignorant of the different reasons people may have that influence there decision to go to a foreign school.

I would never want to compare myself with you or anyone else. I love who I am and I'm extremely excited about my career in Psych. I know I will be a positive force in the lives of those I will treat as a physician. The last thing on my mind is going to be the thought of if I am equal to my my coworkers because I went to a foreign school and they went to a school in the US.

Please drop this topic it really is a waste of time to even attempt to debate about it.

 

[OBfan]

lol... I love SDN. Braingames was banned for trolling as written under the screen name.
lol.

Thanks SDN

 

[Sigma Cronos]

This topic should be totally wiped, is that possible?

 

[whopper]

Let's assume that one group truly is better than another?

The performance of the group as a whole will form bell curves that will overlap to some degree. If you judge the individual, considering if they are AMG or IMG as a strong factor is prejudicial.

I have met AMGs that blow. I've met IMGs that were top of the line. However in general I do think AMGs will at the very least score better as a group on tests. That doesn't mean they'll be better docs in the field. (Remember I am an IMG).

The only real factors I've seen that would make me judge against an IMG are 1) Do they speak fluent English? IF not--that's a strike against 2) Did they score adequately on standardized exams? If not-that's a strike against 3) Did they do their clinical rotations in the US? If not-that's a strike against.

If an IMG were to speak fluent English, do well on USMLE, and do their clinical rotations in a US hospital, I would find no reason to believe that IMG was worse than an American student.

Whether or not you agree with my system, you will have to agree that it is far more thoughtful and probably a more accurate and fair way to judge than to simply just write off an IMG because they are an IMG.

My program kicked out someone last year. She was an AMG and THE WORST resident I had ever seen, and most of our residents are IMGs.

 

[outofhere]

I think people make different choices, because we have different lives. Some choices, like attending a foreign school, may mean that it is more difficult to do certain things, like matching in derm. However, all choices come with a price. For some, it is starting one's training right away, and not wait/waste another year.
For people who are qualified, we all match, and we will all find jobs. Sure, maybe as an IMG, it would be difficult to become chair of psychiatry at Harvard, but then again, that isn't what everyone wants.
I say to all the IMGs out there- keep up the good work. You will all find a place that is your own. And for AMGs, to learn to have empathy is an important trait of a psychiatrist...

 

[psychR1]

I'm an AMG and work with IMG's who show capabilities just as good as any AMG I know. It's silly to worry about this stuff, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and where we studied by no means dictates our individual potential. I say we just talk about how great psychiatry is...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

lol... I love SDN. Braingames was banned for trolling as written under the screen name.
lol.

Thanks SDN

I was having a feeling that Braingames (1st post 10/26) might have been the reincarnation of our old friend AnalyzeThis (banned ~10/18).
Anybody else get that vibe?

 

[maranatha]

I was having a feeling that Braingames (1st post 10/26) might have been the reincarnation of our old friend AnalyzeThis (banned ~10/18).
Anybody else get that vibe?

Absolutely! See my post, 3rd down, on this thread...

 

[DrMuscles]

I am a US IMG and I applied to a highly competitive medical school overseas (on the Indo-Pak Subcontinent) based on my high school performance. (This school was based on the British system in which you don't need an undergrad degree). This was obviously to save time.

I got a 1570 out of 1600 on my SATs, and I was at the top of my high school class. I got accepted to Harvard, MIT, and UC Berkeley. My point is not to show off but to say that not all IMGs are alike (including US IMGs). You don't know the life-story of each and everyone of them, and therefore your judgement is unfair. Yes, a large portion of US IMGs are people who couldn't get into US Medical Schools, but not all of them. I "couldn't" get into a US medical school because I didn't have a pre-med education and I didn't have the money to afford all those years of schooling. So the issue of "not cutting it" doesn't even arise since I didn't try that route.

Not all US IMGs are in the same category of "not being able to cut it" in America. I didn't even try to get into an Americal medical school and chose another route, that's all. I ended up saving loads of money and I have zero debt, and I'm pretty young for being a 4th year med student. I got no complaints.

I have oodles of respect for AMGs, but I will not stand to be demeaned by them because I know that I can cut it, and my USMLE scores will prove that.

If an IMG were to...do their clinical rotations in a US hospital, I would find no reason to believe that IMG was worse than an American student.

There is no reason to say that you must do your clinical rotations in America to be a good doctor. There are plenty of programs outside of America that are great and on par (and some that are even better). I know that your particular post was IMG friendly, so I'm not calling you out on this, but I would like to call out the sheer arrogance of some Americans (other than you) who think the world revolves around them. Come to a super competitive Indo-Pak program and you'll find some of the smartest people ever there.

 

[maranatha]

but I would like to call out the sheer arrogance of some Americans (other than you) who think the world revolves around them. Come to a super competitive Indo-Pak program and you'll find some of the smartest people ever there.

The person who started this thread has already been banned and does not reflect the sentiment of the majority of people on this forum....

 

[raspberry swirl]

I am a US IMG and I applied to a highly competitive medical school overseas (on the Indo-Pak Subcontinent) based on my high school performance. (This school was based on the British system in which you don't need an undergrad degree). This was obviously to save time.

since braingames has been banned, there is no point in continuing this thread, (not that there was ever a point to begin with) but i just wanted to say kudos to dr muscles. i think if i had gone straight from an american high school into medical school in india i probably would have died of shock.

 

[strangeglove]

Ok this crazy debate gets everyone fired up and in a non-flaming way I would like to clear up some of the views-

Now all I hear is the IMG's saying how they are equal or better than AMG's. Now I am talking about the majority-there are excpetions to every rule but in general this is what is said on these boards. Also I am talking about AMERICAN IMG's that do not hack getting in here and go out of country.

Now an american IMG cannot hack getting into an american school, they do not have the credentials and the foreign schools are well known to have sub-par 3rd year clerkships compared to american schools IN GENERAL. Now when you combine a lesser qualified student in general with a little bit worse training-how does this equate in general to IMG's being superior or equal to us?

I think this is evidenced by IMG's filling the less than desirable, poorer programs out there in a vast higher rate than any AMGs

Now this is my thought-please teach me why I am wrong without flaming me-I think this is the view had by almost every PD I have spoke of and attending etc. They all have quite a negative view of foreign students. Again not talking about people who were born there and trained-for example Indian docs are some of the smartest docs I know. Ok so convince me, poeple like obfan-why you are equal to me?

By this logic, MD-PhD's are "better" than AMG MDs, since the requirements to get into MD-PhD programs are more rigorous than the requriements to get into a straight MD program. Also, MD-PhD's tend to match at the top residency programs and most PDs will acknowledge a desire to recruit MD-PhDs. So, if you choose to play the game of mine is bigger than yours, there will always be someone who has a bigger one. Better not to worry too much about this, because there will always be someone with better credentials than you. More important is the fact that there are healthcare needs in this coountry that are still unmet despite a large number of people coming to work here from outside of this country.

 

[whopper]

"There is no reason to say that you must do your clinical rotations in America to be a good doctor. There are plenty of programs outside of America that are great and on par (and some that are even better)."

Point taken.

However several non US programs are structured in a very different manner than the US, and when their students come to the US, that difference shows.

For example UK students-they don't do anywhere near the amount of work American medstudents do while in medical school.

That's not to attack the UK medstudents. Their system is different. Their training is far more years than ours, that that's one of the reasons why their medschool training is more lax. They have residency (house officer) training, just like we do, but then they graduate to become registrars. We do not have that in our system, and as registrars, they get more training. We don't.

However, a UK graduated medstudent, if coming to the US as a resident will still probably lack a lot of clinical skills US medstudents are expected to know.

You are right, I'm sure some countries will have their medstudents actually be far ahead of the US students, but other countries will have them behind.

 

[TheWowEffect]

IMG v. AMG once and for all lets end the debate

I thought this thread was about ending the debate. 🙄