implications of quitting residency

[psychalot]

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hey guys, hoping someone could help me out here. if i were to quit residency mid contract, would there be implications in terms of my government funding? for instance, if i were to get into another program would i be unable to get funded?

also, is there some sort of evidence of quitting a residency? some sort of official record that other programs or fellowships see when you apply to them? any insight is welcome.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

1) There's no funding implication, although your funding already used counts.
2) The evidence is you have to tell the next place you were in your first residency and they'll ask you why you left. If you mean "can I hide that I was in another residency," the answer is no.

 

[psychalot]

1) There's no funding implication, although your funding already used counts.
2) The evidence is you have to tell the next place you were in your first residency and they'll ask you why you left. If you mean "can I hide that I was in another residency," the answer is no.

i appreciate the response, but why do i "have" to tell them anything? the only issue i see is that they might be somehow able to figure out that i have a year of funding down, but if there is no way for them to tap this resource i'm not convinced they would ever find out. fortunately for me, my first match affords me many years of funding, so it's not something i'm particularly worried about.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

i appreciate the response, but why do i "have" to tell them anything? the only issue i see is that they might be somehow able to figure out that i have a year of funding down, but if there is no way for them to tap this resource i'm not convinced they would ever find out. fortunately for me, my first match affords me many years of funding, so it's not something i'm particularly worried about.

Because your medical school will provide them your transcript. Hypothetically, let's say you were in school from 2008-2012. Then you have this mysterious block of time from 2012-2013 missing. The next question will be what you did then. You don't have to tell them, I suppose, but the likelihood of them not finding out would be quite slim. I'm pretty sure the NRMP would also have records of you being involved in the Match. It's your call if you want to try to get it past them, but I'm about 99.9% sure that it wouldn't work.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Isn't there a part of ERAS where it asks if you've ever gone through the match before?

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Isn't there a part of ERAS where it asks if you've ever gone through the match before?

I think he's asking if he lied about it, how would anyone find out. At least, that's what I'm getting from the question.

 

[psychalot]

I think he's asking if he lied about it, how would anyone find out. At least, that's what I'm getting from the question.

i'm just trying to understand the process. the process is set up in such a way to give power to program directors, and i'm trying to figure out if the power is real or perceived.

are you a student? attending? program director?

 

[ruralsurg4now]

i'm just trying to understand the process. the process is set up in such a way to give power to program directors, and i'm trying to figure out if the power is real or perceived.

are you a student? attending? program director?

You're right, the process is set up to give power to program directors. It's a real power. It's not fair, but fighting it by lying won't work.

 

[nlax30]

You also presumably have a state training license now at your current spot. I'm only licensed in my present state, but I would assume most if not all states require you to disclose training history and other/prior licenses to them as part of the licensing process.

So even if you weren't completely honest with a training program you would then be effectively lying to a state medical board. No bueno.

 

[Smurfette]

You have to disclose that you completed some medical training previously. You will have to disclose it every time you apply for a residency, fellowship, board certification, attending job, state license, and hospital privileges from now until retirement (and no, I am not exaggerating). Lie on any of these apps, you pretty much screw yourself over (and depending on the state, in the case of licensing apps, this may be an offense that could land you a hefty fine, censure/revocation of your license and/or jail time).

Oh, and when you disclose to a program/PD that you previously had some medical training, assume they will contact your former program or ask for a LOR from your prior PD. People have medical and family issues, or just discover they picked the wrong field or program for this; PDs are aware of this. You would have to explain your circumstances for leaving, especially if you don't complete the year. Most individuals look for a new program but stick out the year, so leaving mid-year is a red flag that needs to be addressed.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

i appreciate the response, but why do i "have" to tell them anything? the only issue i see is that they might be somehow able to figure out that i have a year of funding down, but if there is no way for them to tap this resource i'm not convinced they would ever find out. fortunately for me, my first match affords me many years of funding, so it's not something i'm particularly worried about.

If the actual question you're asking is "Can I lie and get away with it?", I would suggest you take the advice of everyone above.

The odds that you will get through the application process successfully while lying about the gap in your training is very, very slim.

And as Smurfette rightly points out, it's not a one time thing. Even if you successfully matched, you still have to apply for a license. So now you'd have moved from lying to your residency to lying to a state medical board. Not a good plan. Every stage of your training, every time you have to apply for or renew a professional license, this will come up. Lying about it to a state medical board would lead to potential denial or revocation of your license (and subsequent termination of your training/employment). Plus I don't think anyone has mentioned this but you would also be labelled a "Match Violator" by the NRMP and be banned from the match in the future.

Even if you lie, the information is very discoverable. There will be records of your training at your current institution. It may not seem "fair"...but trying to perpetuate a career long lie is hardly a "fair" response.

 

[shopsteward]

If the OP looks, he/she will find plenty of old threads on -

1. How to hold on in a residency which you don't like, or which doesn't like you, and

2. How difficult it is to find a new residency after quitting/resigning/being fired.

 

[psychalot]

If the actual question you're asking is "Can I lie and get away with it?", I would suggest you take the advice of everyone above.

The odds that you will get through the application process successfully while lying about the gap in your training is very, very slim.

And as Smurfette rightly points out, it's not a one time thing. Even if you successfully matched, you still have to apply for a license. So now you'd have moved from lying to your residency to lying to a state medical board. Not a good plan. Every stage of your training, every time you have to apply for or renew a professional license, this will come up. Lying about it to a state medical board would lead to potential denial or revocation of your license (and subsequent termination of your training/employment). Plus I don't think anyone has mentioned this but you would also be labelled a "Match Violator" by the NRMP and be banned from the match in the future.

Even if you lie, the information is very discoverable. There will be records of your training at your current institution. It may not seem "fair"...but trying to perpetuate a career long lie is hardly a "fair" response.

i never mentioned lying or anything about the process being 'fair'. i'm attempting to gain a better understanding of the situation. here are some of my thoughts though:

1) is there communication between the state board and my residency program? if not then i don't see a problem

2) when i apply for a state license i can then give them the residency information, it shouldn't matter to them if i only completed a portion of 1 residency

3) match violator means nothing after residency

 

[smq123]

Because your medical school will provide them your transcript. Hypothetically, let's say you were in school from 2008-2012. Then you have this mysterious block of time from 2012-2013 missing. The next question will be what you did then. You don't have to tell them, I suppose, but the likelihood of them not finding out would be quite slim. I'm pretty sure the NRMP would also have records of you being involved in the Match. It's your call if you want to try to get it past them, but I'm about 99.9% sure that it wouldn't work.

That's technically true, but it'd be a pretty dim-witted PD who didn't notice a 6 month gap in the CV that you upload to ERAS the 2nd time around...

 

[smq123]

i never mentioned lying or anything about the process being 'fair'. i'm attempting to gain a better understanding of the situation. here are some of my thoughts though:

How do you propose getting a new spot after you decide to quit your current residency? Just cold-calling programs and lying about what you've been doing for the past 6 months?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

i never mentioned lying or anything about the process being 'fair'. i'm attempting to gain a better understanding of the situation. here are some of my thoughts though:

You never explicitly mentioned lying, that is true. But how else do you propose to accomplish this?

1) is there communication between the state board and my residency program? if not then i don't see a problem

There is direct communication between YOU and the state board. In which they explicitly ask you to list every hospital you have been employed at, or trained at, as well as to explain any significant gaps in your training.

And your hospital employment paperwork from your new residency program will also ask you to list every hospital you have worked at or trained at.

So again...unless you are planning to lie...it will have to be provided

2) when i apply for a state license i can then give them the residency information, it shouldn't matter to them if i only completed a portion of 1 residency

But that information is not a sealed, confidential record. It will be available to your program as well. And as I and others pointed out, your program will also explicitly ask you for this information.

3) match violator means nothing after residency

How do you propose to find a new program? And my point was that if you were to fudge your record and subsequently lose your spot, you would not only lose that spot but the ability to attain another one after that.

 

[nlax30]

i never mentioned lying or anything about the process being 'fair'. i'm attempting to gain a better understanding of the situation. here are some of my thoughts though:

1) is there communication between the state board and my residency program? if not then i don't see a problem

I would say yes. At least at my program they pretty much do most of the paperwork to apply for your initial "trainee" state medical license and are the ones that send it to the state.

2) when i apply for a state license i can then give them the residency information, it shouldn't matter to them if i only completed a portion of 1 residency

They're probably going to require some sort of documentation/letter or something from each program you were at stating you either completed it or were in good standing or whatever they need to say.

I'm not on a medical board but if they see a gap or something that looks odd I wouldn't put it past them to investigate it a little or bit or start asking the programs what's going on.

3) match violator means nothing after residency

See how that works out for ya.


Not really sure what your end goal/purpose is here. If you're just rhetorically playing devils advocate out of curiosity that's one thing, but I wouldn't suggest you handle this the way you've mentioned unless you're willing to deal with being kicked out of program or worse, losing a state medical license.

 

[michaelrack]

i never mentioned lying or anything about the process being 'fair'. i'm attempting to gain a better understanding of the situation. here are some of my thoughts though:

1) is there communication between the state board and my residency program? if not then i don't see a problem

yes. State medical boards tend to verify everything

 

[drcrispmd]

If you are caught lying on ERAS even if you matched, it is grounds for firing at any point. Most do a background check which can bring up things. Do not know specifically previous jobs. Your NPI will be in the system under your first residency. Like I said, if they discover you lied on your ERAS (or did not disclose previous residency) it is grounds to be fired at any point. It shows a lack of professionalism. Be honest. Most will require a letter from the residency'S PD about your status and of there were any concerns. Sounds like there are concerns with you? Also, programs will google or look applicants up on Facebook occasionally at rank meetings.

 

[shan564]

Most of the time, switching specialties won't really work against you all that much. People understand if you changed your mind. Based on your username, I'm guessing you might be interested in psych - if that's the case, that actually works well for you... a lot of people switch to psych after starting in another specialty, and psych PDs are generally used to that. If you're honest and say something like "here's why I made the wrong decision, and here's what I learned from it," people will generally consider your previous training to be a useful life experience that'll help make you a better resident.

bottom line - the risk of telling the truth is probably way lower than the risk of hiding it. If you hide the truth, you risk getting in big trouble.

 

[gutonc]

bottom line - the risk of telling the truth is probably way lower than the risk of hiding it. If you hide the truth, you risk getting in big trouble.

While all the advice in here is good and the OP should pay attention to it, this right here is the most important one.

And remember, there are lies of commission as well as lies of omission. Either way, you're lying. And I've mentioned many times before that, in medicine, the old adage that "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" absolutely does not apply. There is no forgiveness.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think part of the problem here is that the OP has been somewhat vague on what their plans are.

If you're simply unhappy in your current field and want to switch to something else, as mentioned it's not a huge problem. You will be no more competitive for the field you want to switch into than you were during the last application cycle -- so if you couldn't get a spot in Derm beforehand, you're unlikely to get one now. But if you're looking at a new field that is equally / less competitive that what you're in, you can usually switch. As mentioned, most PD's will want to speak with your current PD to get a sense of how you're doing in your program. Best case scenario is that you're doing fine but are just unhappy and want to switch. Harder is if you are not doing fine -- then any new PD needs to assess whether the problem will be fixed by having you switch fields, or if the problem is you and you have poor insight into that.

If you're happy with your field but want a new location, then the situation basically is the same. If your performance is fine, PD's will simply want to know why you want to move and why a new program would be better. They will also want to compare the curriculum / experiences at your 1st program, to make certain that your training is similar. Some boards (i.e American Board of [insert field here]) have rules about transfers. If your performance is substandard in your current program, then it's much more difficult to transfer -- because you'd need to convince a new PD that either your problems would go away at a new program, or that you've fixed your issues but just need a new start.

Hiding any training is a really bad idea. As mentioned above, most employers will see your CV as a complete list of your training / work experience. Things before medical school don't matter, but everything afterwards needs to be listed.

 

[rokshana]

and medical boards look at ANY unexplained gap and want an answer…i graduated med school in may and started residency in july…they wanted an accounting of THAT gap time…6 months will definitely merit an explanation…and if you don't give the info of your residency, then you will be lying...