importance of a good program director

[ResidentMD]

I have been on a few interviews, and have come across different types of program directors. Some of them really try to connect with the candidates, while others are more aloof. Some try to really show you how you could fit into the program, while others are just ambivalent.

I wanted to know, probably from people who are already further ahead in their careers (especially academia - attendings, fellows, current residents) and even from the current interviewees, how important is the nature of the PD in your selection process?

As long as he/she isnt a weird person, the institution has a good reputation, decent fellowship matches (which I guess means they write good letters for their residents and help them out), good clinical training, residents getting along,etc,etc.....does this play a role in your decision? And more importantly, should it?

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[Frugal Traveler]

Your fellow residents are probably going to make or break the program.. think of a job where your interactions with your co-workers primarily shape your day.

A great program director just like a great boss can really make the program a better place. Some PDs are introverted but behind the scenes they make the program work like clockwork and ensure your voices are heard... so hard to judge at an interview what they are really like. We all know the biggest aholes can put on a great show for half a day and then revert back to what they really are when you are gone.

A bad program director can linger, but they are usually cleared.

The thing you want to watch for in the process is flux... if they have a new program director or have had leadership changes, then explore that some more.

 

[Ariee]

RMD, interesting you bring this up, I had the same concern several weeks ago.

I agree with Frugal above & wanted to add this. I went on a 2nd look already for the one program that I loved but was kinda weary of the PD. On my 2nd look the PD was totally AWESOME! I think the IV is a one-day snap shot & time should be spent really addressing the q: "Will I fit in here?" Personally, IMHO for me that meant: 1. Does this program offer the GME that I need to succeed as an internist 2. Does this program have the commaradarie that will make me not dread going to work. I think item 2 can be broken down to residents and PD. I think residents should outweight the PD, but the PD is still a key. Now with the PD being aloof vs. aggressive is an entirely separate issue, I think. I think this is just a personality issue. I tend to be more of a less aggressive person and like ppl that are not as aggressive. For me aloof, does not mean disinterested, rather humble...so perhaps try taking a look at the PD's behavior from another angle.

What was it exactly about the PD that didn't sit well with you? If in doubt, 2nd look...for me it turned my "I'm not sure about this guy" into a "I really like this guy. He's a cute little sucker". He took me out for lunch and all and we had a great chance to get to know each other better...

 

[dragonfly99]

A great program director just like a great boss can really make the program a better place. Some PDs are introverted but behind the scenes they make the program work like clockwork and ensure your voices are heard... so hard to judge at an interview what they are really like. We all know the biggest aholes can put on a great show for half a day and then revert back to what they really are when you are gone.

The thing you want to watch for in the process is flux... if they have a new program director or have had leadership changes, then explore that some more.

I agree with this. I think the PD can be very important, particularly if you need to go for a fellowship. What he/she says can make or break you. If the person isn't supportive in general, or just doesn't like you in particular, that can really hurt. PD's at some places really go to bat for their people...but not so much so at other places. And I don't think how nice he is to you on interview day really tells you much about what he's going to be like long term...some PD's are smooth operators in an interview type situation, just like some residency candidates are.

 

[ResidentMD]

I agree with this. I think the PD can be very important, particularly if you need to go for a fellowship. What he/she says can make or break you. If the person isn't supportive in general, or just doesn't like you in particular, that can really hurt. PD's at some places really go to bat for their people...but not so much so at other places. And I don't think how nice he is to you on interview day really tells you much about what he's going to be like long term...some PD's are smooth operators in an interview type situation, just like some residency candidates are.

Agreed. So this really brings up the issue regarding other factors in the selection process.

The way I see it - as long as the PD isnt obnoxious and you get along well with him/her - and the matches seem to be good - it should be okay right? The residents' happiness as perceived on the interview day may be a rough indicator of the working of the program.

Also, I guess, a few top tier program PDs dont need to bat for their residents, as the institutional reputation often does the job.

 

[Ariee]

Agreed. So this really brings up the issue regarding other factors in the selection process.

The way I see it - as long as the PD isnt obnoxious and you get along well with him/her - and the matches seem to be good - it should be okay right? The residents' happiness as perceived on the interview day may be a rough indicator of the working of the program.

Also, I guess, a few top tier program PDs dont need to bat for their residents, as the institutional reputation often does the job.

I think fellowship process is a word of mouth game. What the PD says about you I think is weighed quite heavily. The rep would follow, especially in some states where PD's are close and well-connected and like to keep a certain type of physician in their network. I think the PD would always need to bat for their resident...but this is just my 0.02.

Lastly, I think where you belong is a gut feeling. IMHO, a combination of GME & commaradarie for me. For you that recipe may be different. What worked for me was drawing up a list of my needs. When I IV'd I started a working rank list where those needs that weren't met were placed much lower.

G'luck RMD!
A 🙂

 

[Frugal Traveler]

Also, I guess, a few top tier program PDs dont need to bat for their residents, as the institutional reputation often does the job.

The perils of bureaucracy are ubiquitous... so even at top programs, it is good to have someone watching the gears to make sure they don't get clogged or dispelling a malevolent spirit. Top programs perhaps can rest on their laurels for a short period but not for long. You have to keep working and working...

 

[ResidentMD]

The perils of bureaucracy are ubiquitous... so even at top programs, it is good to have someone watching the gears to make sure they don't get clogged or dispelling a malevolent spirit. Top programs perhaps can rest on their laurels for a short period but not for long. You have to keep working and working...

I agree. the best thing is to have a PD at a top program advocate for you. But I do know that this sometimes does not happen; and hence was hypothesizing why 🙂

Ariee, I agree, I too drew up a needs list. However, I was just wondering how much weight should be given to the PD (as per the characteristics mentioned above) in the overall schema of things. Thanks!

 

[Bike on a Trek]

...However, I was just wondering how much weight should be given to the PD ....

I, personally, would not give much weight at all to the charisma (or lack thereof) of the PD at the time of your interview. Interview days are as stressful on them as they are on you. The real character/impact of the PD is reflected in her/his housestaff. If the housestaff are good, you "connect" with the housestaff, and they say nice things about the PD, that's good enough. Remember, PD's can change overnight. If you weight the charm of the PD high, you will be making a big mistake. Let the character of the housestaff speak for the program that the PD has put together, because the character of the housestaff tends to a bit more durable.

 

[Ariee]

I agree. the best thing is to have a PD at a top program advocate for you. But I do know that this sometimes does not happen; and hence was hypothesizing why 🙂

Ariee, I agree, I too drew up a needs list. However, I was just wondering how much weight should be given to the PD (as per the characteristics mentioned above) in the overall schema of things. Thanks!

I agree with Bike a Trek above.

RMD, you're absolutely right, it's difficult to assess how much one should weight the PD. I'll be honest, I don't have a strict answer, but it just seemed to work at the place that is my #1, that's what I meant about gut-feeling. Another thing to look at is the quality of the residents. These residents are selected by the PD and should reflect a little bit about the PD. Also, consider looking at other measurable outcomes of the PD's personality, such as years of accreditation, past violations, board pass rates, etc, etc.

Personally, I was looking for a supprotive PD that would bring the BEST out of the program and the best out of me. My 2nd conversation with my future PD, I was able to really bring this out in him.

I recc 2nd looks at your top 3-5 programs RMD. IV days are difficult on retrospection, b/c not only are you mentally exhausted but so is the PD.

FT (Frugal Traveller) really hit it on the head when he/she stated that the most charismatic PD may be putting on a show and quite possibly be a tyrant.

Lastly, I always asked on the IV pre-dinner from the residents what is the PD like. I got honest, great answers at these IV dinners...so give it a try. Also e-mail the residents and ask diplomatically.

G'luck RMD 😉

 

[jdh71]

Day to day, it will be the resident's who will be the big factor, BUT when it comes to your future career it is invaluable to have an active and interested PD, someone who will write a great letter, got to bat, and make calls for you. You've got to remember when you apply to fellowship there is nothing for residency that is the same as Dean's letter, or med school transcript (yes THESE will be included in your application), and it will be how your program director highlights your job as a resident through your evals, comments, etc. that can make all the difference.

There are many, many factors involved here, but all things being equal by all means consider more strongly a program where the director seems much more interested and involved, and ask about him specifically on the interview trail.

 

[Ariee]

He's back, he's back!!! 😍Lol- welcome back!