in a sticky situation

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

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Hi all. I am graduating in May with my B.S. in Psych. I live overseas with my husband who is stationed in Japan with the Navy. I was hoping to get some advice from you guys. I initially was planning to attend medical school for psychiatry. Having just recently moved to Japan for the next 3 years (2015), that dream seems so far gone. I need to do something productive for 3 years besides sit around.

I have decided to focus my time on a masters program in clinical psychology. There is a mental health clinic here that I am hoping to get some volunteering ops. Because I'm overseas, the program will have to be online. Am I going to find a decent job with an online masters? Does anyone know of any good online programs? Anyone been through a similar situation? I'm sure more questions will come, but that's it for now. Thanks in advance.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If you search these forums, you should be able to pull up a couple other threads that have asked this same question; that should get you some decent information. The short version: online degrees, particularly in areas that involve some component of clinical training/supervision and direct patient care, are generally frowned upon. Could you find a job with such a degree? I'm sure there are people who do, but they're at a significant disadvantage when compared with individuals who've graduated from traditional programs.

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

it seems that most are saying an online masters is worthless, so...I AM SCREWED. I have no choice but to be here and because of that, I'm being punished by not being allowed to further my education.

 

[paramour]

If your goal was to ultimately pursue medical school, why change your goal? Are you able to find a clinically-oriented medical opportunity where you can volunteer/work for the next three years? You can continue to be productive and move toward your desire to go to med school without changing tracks to something else entirely... Yes, it may be slow-going in the meantime, but it may be more rewarding when you end up with what you wanted rather than what you settled for because you had no other choice.

Now, if you truly have no other choice for additional reasons other than what you share (i.e., in 3 years it wouldn't matter either for whatever reasons), and you truly must adjust your goals at this time, then so be it. But as already stated here (and on numerous other threads), online degrees in advanced education/training are usually not the recommended path.

G'luck!


(And if this is half garbled, I apologize. I'm running half-kilter at the moment... 😴)

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

I really have no idea what I should do. If I want to become a psychologist, it seems I need an additional 4-7 years of PhD or PsyD training. If I want to become a psychiatrist, I'll need medical school. I don't mind working for it, I'm just not sure what I want to be doing. They both are appealing. Both require additional training. Is there a huge difference in the costs of training? What are the differences in program difficulty?

I'm 27, I'll be 30 when I move back to the U.S. I am so fearful of being a 37 year old student. I want to work on something for these 3 years and have a set plan for when I get back to the U.S. I don't know what to do. I called the mental health clinic to see if I can arrange a meeting with a few of the docs there to get some volunteer or work experience, anything. I'm waiting on a return call.

Do I go for an online masters program and then get back to the U.S. and complete a PhD or PsyD program? Or do I do an online post bacc program while here in Japan and then enroll in medical school when I get back to the U.S.? I'm at such a loss and really need advice and guidance from people who've been in my shoes.

 

[MBellows]

If your goal was to ultimately pursue medical school, why change your goal? Are you able to find a clinically-oriented medical opportunity where you can volunteer/work for the next three years? You can continue to be productive and move toward your desire to go to med school without changing tracks to something else entirely... Yes, it may be slow-going in the meantime, but it may be more rewarding when you end up with what you wanted rather than what you settled for because you had no other choice.

Now, if you truly have no other choice for additional reasons other than what you share (i.e., in 3 years it wouldn't matter either for whatever reasons), and you truly must adjust your goals at this time, then so be it. But as already stated here (and on numerous other threads), online degrees in advanced education/training are usually not the recommended path.

G'luck!


(And if this is half garbled, I apologize. I'm running half-kilter at the moment... 😴)

3 years of possible clinical experience while having time to study for the MCAT, count yourself lucky. 🙂

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

I apologize in advance, I posted this topic on other threads as well. I really need some advice.

Hi all. I am graduating in May with my B.S. in Psych. I live overseas with my husband who is stationed in Japan with the Navy. I was hoping to get some advice from you guys. I initially was planning to attend medical school for psychiatry. Having just recently moved to Japan for the next 3 years (2015), that dream seems so far gone. I need to do something productive for 3 years besides sit around.

I really have no idea what I should do. If I want to become a psychologist, it seems I need an additional 4-7 years of PhD or PsyD training. If I want to become a psychiatrist, I'll need medical school. I don't mind working for it, I'm just not sure what I want to be doing. They both are appealing. Both require additional training. Is there a huge difference in the costs of training? What are the differences in program difficulty? Ideally I want to work in a hospital/clinical setting counseling patients with substance abuse, schizo, PTSD, etc. Prescribing meds isn't important to me, should it be? Honestly, the money is a huge factor in my decision, amongst happiness and sanity.

I'm 27, I'll be 30 when I move back to the U.S. I am so fearful of being a 37 year old student (and possibly having kids IN medical school). I want to work on something for these 3 years and have a set plan for when I get back to the U.S. I don't know what to do. I called the mental health clinic to see if I can arrange a meeting with a few of the docs there to get some volunteer or work experience, anything. I'm waiting on a return call.

Do I go for an online masters program and then get back to the U.S. and complete a PhD or PsyD program? Or do I do an online post bacc program while here in Japan and then enroll in medical school when I get back to the U.S.? I'm at such a loss and really need advice and guidance from people who've been in my shoes.

 

[KillerDiller]

An online masters or postbacc isn't going to be worthwhile unless you don't already meet the pre-reqs for psychology doctoral programs or med school respectively. (Even then, not sure an online masters would get you very far in psychology.) Anyway, programs like these won't cut any time off the 6 years or so needed to receive your degree.

Start by reading the sticky at the top of this forum called "Doctoral Applicants Read Here First." That should provide some basic information about the field. You could also visit the medical forums here and look at masters-level degrees that may better fit in with your lifestyle. Basically, I don't think you will get all of your questions answered on just this one thread.

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

How so? I think being married to the military and having to live in a foreign country is a pretty dang good reason for taking online courses.

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

I completely get where you're coming from IF we're talking about a person who took online classes for convenience. However, I do think consideration should at least be made for graduates who are military family oriented. What I mean is, it isn't by choice I am here in Japan. I'd much rather be in the states completed a traditional degree, but I'm not. I'm here, supporting my husband and our family so...should I be overlooked because I didn't graduate in a traditional setting? Exceptions should be made if the applicant is competent and clearly demonstrates that they understand their training.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I apologize in advance, I posted this topic on other threads as well. I really need some advice.

Hi all. I am graduating in May with my B.S. in Psych. I live overseas with my husband who is stationed in Japan with the Navy. I was hoping to get some advice from you guys. I initially was planning to attend medical school for psychiatry. Having just recently moved to Japan for the next 3 years (2015), that dream seems so far gone. I need to do something productive for 3 years besides sit around.

I really have no idea what I should do. If I want to become a psychologist, it seems I need an additional 4-7 years of PhD or PsyD training. If I want to become a psychiatrist, I'll need medical school. I don't mind working for it, I'm just not sure what I want to be doing. They both are appealing. Both require additional training. Is there a huge difference in the costs of training? What are the differences in program difficulty? Ideally I want to work in a hospital/clinical setting counseling patients with substance abuse, schizo, PTSD, etc. Prescribing meds isn't important to me, should it be? Honestly, the money is a huge factor in my decision, amongst happiness and sanity.

I'm 27, I'll be 30 when I move back to the U.S. I am so fearful of being a 37 year old student (and possibly having kids IN medical school). I want to work on something for these 3 years and have a set plan for when I get back to the U.S. I don't know what to do. I called the mental health clinic to see if I can arrange a meeting with a few of the docs there to get some volunteer or work experience, anything. I'm waiting on a return call.

Do I go for an online masters program and then get back to the U.S. and complete a PhD or PsyD program? Or do I do an online post bacc program while here in Japan and then enroll in medical school when I get back to the U.S.? I'm at such a loss and really need advice and guidance from people who've been in my shoes.

One thing I am curious about is why you have started thinking about becoming a psychologist instead. It is a common transition, but usually earlier in undergrad. If you have made it this far with premed, I worry that you will regret switching to psych. There are very different career paths with different benefits and liabilities. If you have enjoyed the medical stuff, you might really miss it.

Another issue is whether your partner will be able/willing to move around to pursue your career after returning to the US. Both careers will likely require multiple relocations with the possibility of ending up in an undesirable location for a while. As noted above, online work in psychology is likely a waste of time and money.

Do you have the research experience to apply to grad school at this point? Do you have interest in conducting research? This is a big part of doctoral study. If you don't enjoy this aspect, and want to do primarily psychotherapy, a master's is probably a better choice (also time-saving and more flexible with regard to location).

Re: money. When you say money is important, I was unclear if you meant for school or earning potential. Med school is likely more expensive (some PhD programs are funded) but you will much more easily be able to pay back your loans. Private practice psychiatrists are reimbursed at a rate about 3x that of private practice psychologists. If you are interested in working for an employer and getting benefits there are many opportunities in psychiatry due to a huge shortage of providers. Not the same story for psychologists.


Dr. E

 

[Qwerk]

I completely get where you're coming from IF we're talking about a person who took online classes for convenience. However, I do think consideration should at least be made for graduates who are military family oriented. What I mean is, it isn't by choice I am here in Japan. I'd much rather be in the states completed a traditional degree, but I'm not. I'm here, supporting my husband and our family so...should I be overlooked because I didn't graduate in a traditional setting? Exceptions should be made if the applicant is competent and clearly demonstrates that they understand their training.

I'm wondering how you would receive clinical training in Japan. Don't online master's degrees require internships completed wherever you're studying from? (If the one you're considering doesn't, that would certainly raise a red flag.) How would you accomplish this outside the U.S.?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I originally responded to your post in another thread, but this is probably more on topic in this thread....

Can you speak Japanese? Other languages? If not, then consider learning a language while abroad. Clinical training via online classes will be of very limited use to you, but being MULTI-lingual and then taking classes through a quality institution when you relocate back stateside will give you a leg up on your peers.

Additionally, the field is VERY competitive and often unfair, so adjusting you plans and expectations will be required bc the field won't adjust to applicants. Online training is just not a viable option for the field. Are there individual exceptions out there.....probably, but they are very much the exception.

 

[roubs]

Not to mention you'd be dumping a lot of money into an online masters with a "no benefit" --> "possible harm" situation, re: your future career. I'd use the time to get ready for med school, get a high MCAT score so you can get into a good one.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: Merging these threads into the forum that had the greater number of replies.

 

[Ollie123]

This basically. It doesn't matter why you obtain subpar training - the outcome is the same and it will not make you a competitive applicant for doctoral programs.

Thirded.

I'm sure admissions committees will "understand" in the sense they aren't going to hate you for pursuing such a degree. However, the reality is that coming out of such a program you will still most likely be less qualified than other applicants at all but the worst schools. It may be unfortunate for you, but their job is to pick the people with the best qualifications. If you don't have a background they consider sufficient to succeed in their program, they aren't going to admit you on the grounds that under-prepared was the best you could do given the circumstances. I know that sounds harsh, but that is reality. Its a competitive field with high expectations and often requires a fair bit of geographic flexibility. Is your husband prepared to move with YOU for grad school, internship, post-doc, and your first job? While possible to stay in one location for all these things, its certainly uncommon and can be very difficult to do. If he is planning on remaining in the military long-term it may not prove any more feasible when you are back in the US.

If you are in Japan for 3 years, are there master's programs you can do there? Can you get a research job there? I know little about educational opportunities or immigration/work permits there, but there is quite a bit of excellent psychology research being done there, so there may be opportunities to improve your vita.

 

[Goobernut]

Hello fellow military spouse 🙂

I know how it seems, but most of what these people speak here is the truth. I honesty feel that you would be better served by shadowing or volunteering for three years than getting an online degree. I know in the military industrial complex there is the attitude of get it done whatever way you need to, and that lots of officers etc are getting degrees online. In reality, it one of the few workplaces that routinely hires people with an online degree. There are a few other notable exceptions, but that is talked about in other threads.

I know you mentioned that you don't want to be a 37 year old student, but as a 37 year old student, I'd like to say its not so bad. I've done many worthwhile things in the meantime. Oh my, the things I've learned (hahaha)! I made a commitment long ago to get a high quality education. I realized I wanted to go into psych right as we got to Germany 🙂 My time overseas, and the job I was able to get while there is going to be a huge part of why I think my apps will be successful. You have no idea how valuable your time there will be until you are filling it out on your vita and personal statements! Join international groups, find out exactly what you really want to do, not just what will do because that's all you have access to.

Seriously don't short change yourself because you have a unique lifestyle, you are not "behind" because you have to delay it for three years.

To be honest though, I think getting a language as a second bachelors online won't kill you. I know while we were in Germany, the local base had several classes you could take on base through UMUC. We even had several masters and bachelors programs you could get on base. Those might be an option if you are just looking to fill your time. Which base are you at? I know that several bases over there have internship programs for educators, so do you say there are none available because someone told you that, or is it because of competitiveness?

Another thing someone else touched on, but that you may not realize is that your masters will not count for work towards your PhD. You won't cut off 2 years of your doctoral program, you will still likely have an average time of 6-7 years. You will still probably have to move around for an internship.

This might seem elementary, but have you been to the base education office? Some bases have great ones, some have crappy ones. So I get if you have already been there and they weren't much help.

(Edited because I mixed up base names)

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I completely get where you're coming from IF we're talking about a person who took online classes for convenience. However, I do think consideration should at least be made for graduates who are military family oriented. What I mean is, it isn't by choice I am here in Japan. I'd much rather be in the states completed a traditional degree, but I'm not. I'm here, supporting my husband and our family so...should I be overlooked because I didn't graduate in a traditional setting? Exceptions should be made if the applicant is competent and clearly demonstrates that they understand their training.

I don't agree with this line of thinking, but I suspect some profs who are on admission committees for clinical psych would say, "Why do you have to live with your husband? It is only 3 years. You are choosing to live in Japan instead of attending school." It is a cut-throat field and often not very understanding.

Make the most of this time and don't spend it getting a worthless degree. Even students who attend awesome brick and mortar terminal master's programs rarely are able to transfer many credits to doctoral programs where you earn a master's en route to the PhD (which is the case for many programs). If you are serious about the doctorate, don't bother with this type of master's.

You are far from screwed, but these 3 years will be about gaining life experiences and professional experiences, not about getting academic credit.


Dr. E

 

[Mi Chiamo Tiff]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I really do value them and have considered everything you've said. I have been told I can't do this or that while in Japan (get a useful online MS), so I've changed my career plan a few times. I've gone from psychiatry to psychology to PA to NP to CRNA. I don't know what I want to do. When I think about my future, I want to be able to make a high income 80-150k. I don't think that one of these jobs would make me less happy than the other. The only thing on my mind right now is how long I'm going to have to be in school, and...if I kids in a few years...sheesh that's a whole other thing. I'm 27 right now, IDK if I mentioned that.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I really do value them and have considered everything you've said. I have been told I can't do this or that while in Japan (get a useful online MS), so I've changed my career plan a few times. I've gone from psychiatry to psychology to PA to NP to CRNA. I don't know what I want to do. When I think about my future, I want to be able to make a high income 80-150k. I don't think that one of these jobs would make me less happy than the other. The only thing on my mind right now is how long I'm going to have to be in school, and...if I kids in a few years...sheesh that's a whole other thing. I'm 27 right now, IDK if I mentioned that.

Honestly, of the options you've listed, my gut instinct is that the PA/NP/CRNA route might be the most family-friendly. The training is likely going to be somewhat shorter than either med school or grad school for psych (even factoring in if you need to get an accelerated bachelors in nursing), the jobs shouldn't be tough to find, and it's going to be more realistic to make $80-150k while working a reduced number of hours.

If you don't at all care what kind of work you do, then I'd say one of those options would be best. I also believe that many/most/all PA programs require some level of clinical work experience prior to beginning training, so that's something you could look into completing to some extent while in Japan.

 

[wigflip]

I don't agree with this line of thinking, but I suspect some profs who are on admission committees for clinical psych would say, "Why do you have to live with your husband? It is only 3 years. You are choosing to live in Japan instead of attending school." It is a cut-throat field and often not very understanding.

Yup, yup. I'm not a military wife, but this has been the majority response from academics re: both my marriage and my eldercare obligations. Academics seem almost mystified that anything could compete with (much less trump) work/educational training. With regards to caregiving, the expectation seems to be that you should be able to fob it off on someone else. With the relationship, the expectation is that it can wait for a few years. Speaks to the high number of faculty divorces perhaps?

BTW, I see shades of this on these attitudes on these forums, as well (more on the doc forum).

 

[wigflip]

I know you mentioned that you don't want to be a 37 year old student, but as a 37 year old student,

Aha!
Another reason I like you, Goobernut! 😀

 

[MBellows]

Yup, yup. I'm not a military wife, but this has been the majority response from academics re: both my marriage and my eldercare obligations. Academics seem almost mystified that anything could compete with (much less trump) work/educational training. With regards to caregiving, the expectation seems to be that you should be able to fob it off on someone else. With the relationship, the expectation is that it can wait for a few years. Speaks to the high number of faculty divorces perhaps?

BTW, I see shades of this on these attitudes on these forums, as well (more on the doc forum).

I think that this mentality is where people get the (sometimes appropriate) idea that academics are completely detached from reality. Taking care of a family member or doing some other fulfilling activity vs. reading papers only 3 other people have read and publishing papers that only 3 other people will read, then try to either tear down or expand upon. Should be an easy choice, right?

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Thank you everyone for your opinions. I really do value them and have considered everything you've said. I have been told I can't do this or that while in Japan (get a useful online MS), so I've changed my career plan a few times. I've gone from psychiatry to psychology to PA to NP to CRNA. I don't know what I want to do. When I think about my future, I want to be able to make a high income 80-150k. I don't think that one of these jobs would make me less happy than the other. The only thing on my mind right now is how long I'm going to have to be in school, and...if I kids in a few years...sheesh that's a whole other thing. I'm 27 right now, IDK if I mentioned that.

I think your income goals would be easier to meet with a nursing background. I am a licensed psychologist and I have had my degree for over 3 years. I am working in a private practice setting over 40 hrs per week and don't make anywhere near that range yet. I also don't have any benefits. You might not need health benefits if you have an employed spouse, but vacation time, sick time, and maternity leave would sure be nice perks. A nursing career would likely provide a higher salary and benefits. Actually, I have many clients who are hospital nurses with kids and it works out for them very well. They work three 12 hr shifts per week and that leaves them with lots of extra time to attend baseball games, school concerts, help in their kids classrooms, etc. It also seems (at least in my city) that it is quite easy for them to find a job. Psychologists jobs around here are hard to find.

Best,
Dr. E