In serious need of sound advice...please help?

[violincuty]

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Hello all....
My story is presumably a bit unique. I am a 23 year old undergraduate at the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I am a first-generation American and a completely self-supporting student who took 3 years off between high school and college. I am a terrible standardized test taker, but I am a dedicated student and a great candidate for an MSTP program. I have a 3.97 GPA and unfortunately, I only have a 28S on my MCAT. I have extensive research experience at my home institution, Columbia, and UCSF. I have been funded by HHMI, NSF, Amgen and the NIH. I am an author on one publication in J. Bact. and I have presented at over 15 conferences. When I have spoken to advisers at the schools I have conducted summer research at, they tell me I am a very competitive applicant for MSTPs; however, that was pre-MCAT.

I have considered retaking and reapplying next year, but I am not convinced I will perform well enough a second time to justify retaking. I never took the SAT, which is how I ended up at UNLV, but I did take the ACT as a junior in college and performed at the 60% percentile. Standardized exams are just not my thing...

There is more to this story. My boyfriend and I would like to go to the same school. He has a 40Q on his MCAT and a 3.99 GPA, also from UNLV, and he is applying this cycle as well. Although we are applying from the same institution, we bring a lot of diversity to the table in our backgrounds. I am willing to make the necessary compromises to stay together (i.e. start an MD only program and transfer into the MD/PhD program or attend a school in the same city). Do you think we have any shot at making this happen??

I am at a complete loss for what the next step is. I had my AMCAS almost entirely filled out with great LoRs, but now I am not sure if it is even worth submitting with that MCAT score. I am afraid that I will be rejected by the computerized index, and they will never even seen my application. I am currently at UCSF in a summer research program, and I am trying to seek the advice of the MSTP coordinator here. If anyone can offer any guidance or direction, I would very greatly appreciate it!

Thanks for your time 🙂

 

[gstrub]

Hello all....

I have considered retaking and reapplying next year, but I am not convinced I will perform well enough a second time to justify retaking.

Retake it. Do better. If you can't score better than a 28 on the MCAT, you will struggle in medical school.

My boyfriend and I would like to go to the same school. Do you think we have any shot at making this happen??

Extremely doubtful. This isn't the couples match... if you were married my advice might be different. If he has a 40, and you have a 28, well, you see my point.[/QUOTE]

I am at a complete loss for what the next step is. I had my AMCAS almost entirely filled out with great LoRs, but now I am not sure if it is even worth submitting with that MCAT score.

Submit it. You never know...it can't hurt you.
Good luck!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

URM or not?

Consider programs in the same city with differing admissions standards.

 

[violincuty]

My boyfriend is a white male from a middle class family, so he is definitely not an URM. I am a white female from an Israeli family. I left home at 16 and have made all of my own decisions since then; thus I am a self-supporting student. I am the first person in my immediate family to pursue a post-secondary education, and I am a first-generation American. I know these qualities count towards a "disadvantaged background", but I am not sure what constitutes an URM. Does minority specifically refer to race? I know my disadvantaged status, my Goldwater Scholarship, my teaching experience and my enrollment in the McNair Scholars program will all help....but I doubt it will make up for a 28 on my MCAT. It is my understanding that most schools have some sort of computerized index that they form between my MCAT and my GPA, so if I do not make that cut, they will never see the rest of my application. What do you think?

Also, would it be in my best interest to apply to MD/PhD programs at every school? I am under the impression that most programs automatically consider you for their MD program if you are rejected by the MD/PhD committee. Is this really true?

Thanks so much for the help!!!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

See above: Retake.

 

[gstrub]

I don't think you're technically URM. But you are a unique candidate with a wide breadth of experience, good research, grades, just a not-so-hot MCAT. I think you will get interviews if you apply broadly despite your 28, but retake it. Another 3+ points and you are competitive, maybe not top 10 programs, but competitive. Don't give up!

PS applying MD/PhD might actually help you at some programs. I know at our program, we can sneak in some interviews for students whose grades/mcats would normally keep them out of the process, but whose research/other experiences make them desirable for MD/PhD.

 

[gbu730]

What school do you go to, gstrub? I'm also applying this year with a slightly low MCAT, so your program sounds appealing.

 

[gstrub]

pm me if you have specific questions. Also, I don't want people to think that our program specifically looks the other way at poor grades and low mcats (they don't), but I'd like to think we look for well rounded students. I've interviewed people with mcats below 30, but all had outstanding research experience.

 

[Neuronix]

I left home at 16 and have made all of my own decisions since then; thus I am a self-supporting student. I am the first person in my immediate family to pursue a post-secondary education, and I am a first-generation American. I know these qualities count towards a "disadvantaged background", but I am not sure what constitutes an URM. Does minority specifically refer to race?

I also left home at 16 and was self-supporting all through college. I am the first person in my extended family to complete post high school education. This will help you a bit (for the programs that do care, many don't), but does not subsitute for your MCAT score. Unfortunately, URM means certain ethnic groups that as an Israeli immigrant you are not a part of. Disadvantaged doesn't mean a whole lot. I certainly think this is RIDICULOUS, but that's the way it is.

I am under the impression that most programs automatically consider you for their MD program if you are rejected by the MD/PhD committee.

It depends on the program. Some don't, some rarely do, others commonly do or automatically do. Unfortunately, MD schools are even more prone to strict cutoffs than MD/PhD programs! As gstrub alludes to, you may still have a chance at MD/PhD programs with that score, but it's a long shot. A 28 will pass a cut off at in-state MD schools and lower tier private schools though, so you still have a good chance there with that score and the rest of your application. Retake. If you bump that up to say a 34, you will be in good shape for MD/PhD.

This isn't the end of super important, high stress standardized exams in medicine. In this way, the MCAT isn't just some arbitrary hoop to jump through. You will have Step I and Step II coming up in med school. You will have shelf exams for each clinical clerkship that are extreme time crunches, test a ton of material, and come at you every month. You will have in site and board certification exams in residency. I'm sorry, but standardized exams are just a very common and very important part of life in medicine. The MCAT is just a taste of these exams, as they get harder as you go along. Step I will again be extremely important for residency, and if you score low on that it will be difficult for you to obtain a residency that you want. Failing a Step exam in med school really hurts you, and these are harder than the MCAT, and this is why medical schools are hesitant to take "poor test takers". It will be better to identify what's holding you back and work on your standardized test taking skills now. I'd recommend a review course that includes a lot of mock exams.

Programs are not going to look at you and your boyfriend as a package deal in any way. If you were married it MIGHT help you stay together, but it's still a pretty big maybe. Without a MCAT retake it's going to be hard to stay together. It could happen, but it's unlikely. This is again preparation for residency, where even well qualified married couples and families are split up all the time. I have really grown to hate that part of the system. Medicine demands you pretty much give yoru whole life to it, putting everything else second. I think this is RIDICULOUS as well, but that's the way it is. It's much worse within academics as an MD/PhD, as working out family concerns is often impossible until post-residency. Consider that when you're applying.

Anyway, UNLV could happen for both of you. Those cities that have a lot of med schools in a number of tiers that aren't in super competitive locations might work out (like Chicago, NYC, or Philly).

 

[Zepavishnu]

I disagree with the statement that if you can't do better than a 28 on the MCAT, you will struggle in medical school. I personally know several people with very similar scores who have been quite successful both in medical school and on Step I (scoring in the 230-240 range). The material on the MCAT is quite different from either medical school or USMLE exams, especially the physical science section, which is heavily quantitative and mathematical, and the verbal section. I think this person's GPA is evidence that they are perfectly capable of succeeding academically.

In addition, I can't speak directly regarding MSTP programs, but many MD only programs have place on their secondary application to describe if you feel like you come from a disadvantaged background or have faced unique challenges in life. While you certainly will get screened out at some schools, I think actually you have a good chance at other very solid programs.

 

[smq123]

I disagree with the statement that if you can't do better than a 28 on the MCAT, you will struggle in medical school. I personally know several people with very similar scores who have been quite successful both in medical school and on Step I (scoring in the 230-240 range). The material on the MCAT is quite different from either medical school or USMLE exams, especially the physical science section, which is heavily quantitative and mathematical, and the verbal section. I think this person's GPA is evidence that they are perfectly capable of succeeding academically.

The question is not whether or not the OP will struggle in medical school. The point is is that, like it or not, most (if not all) adcoms will make an assumption that you're more likely to struggle in medical school if your MCAT score is subpar.

The number of medical school applications rises dramatically each year. The OP may, in fact, have the potential to do very well in medical school, but if she can't get her application beyond a cursory screen at most medical schools, she may never have the opportunity to prove that. That's the issue here.

Plus, the OP has already admitted that she does not do well on standardized tests. The problem is, almost EVERY test in medical school that counts for anything is a standardized test! So if she's struggling with an important standardized test now (i.e. the MCAT), her exam scores won't reflect her true abilities in the future either. So, in that sense, she will continue to struggle.

 

[Zepavishnu]

To clarify, I do think the original poster should absolutely try to retake the MCAT and improve her score.

Good luck

 

[Neuronix]

My medical school, considered a "top" school, frequently interviews people with this score and lower- IF and only if the person comes from a disadvantaged background and/or has faced unique challenges in life.

Might a mid or even upper tier private med school give the op a chance? It is always possible. I'm just relating the most likely scenarios. You have to advise what you see as most likely, and I think advising this person that they will end up a top MD program is incorrect. Though it's just my opinion and you're welcome to disagree with me. I did make it into a top program, but it's because I had a very high GPA, MCAT score, and a pretty strong amount of research experience. Yet, it is unlikely I would have had near the success I had without the MCAT score I had. I was told this by numerous adcoms. My story was simply the cherry on top that got me into a top-10 school (the only one to accept me--off the waitlist) as I was told I would have never been interviewed or accepted without my unique background. Though I know I would have landed in the top-25 without the story (i.e. my second choice school who told me they don't even read personal statements). The take home story for me after talking to many many people was, some adcoms simply don't care, and some give a small amount of bonus points, but for MD/PhD again it is no substitute for GPA, MCAT score, and other expected research requirements. As for URM MD/PhD admissions, I suspect this would be a very different story, but nobody is willing to give hard data on URM average GPA and MCAT, so it's only suspicion. For MD only admissions, there's always going to be a strong range of opinions on the topic. But I'm much more willing to give people the hard realities (i.e. it is unlikely) than a false hope that I've seen many adcoms give. You know "Oh, apply, I think you have a good chance" quickly turns into "Reject, no interview. Thanks for the $80."

I'm agreed with smq on everything else. Do I think a 28 MCAT signals a potential problem medical student? Of course not, it's not far below average and is above the average for many state medical schools. However, with so many applicants, what I said is the excuse medical schools will give for taking students with high MCAT scores. Similarly, do I think the brightest medical students should be our Dermatologists and Radiologists? Of course not. But competition is what it is. There is btw a moderate correlation between MCAT and Step I score reported in the literature. Anecdotes are what they are, but the reality is there is a reasonable correlation. I do still think that rectifying difficulties with standardized exams will help the op's career far into the future. An unwillingness to address this problem due to just being a "a poor standardized test taker" and not clearly identifying their problems, by contrast, will hinder the op's career and potentially just make their life more difficult far into the future.

 

[smq123]

When I have spoken to advisers at the schools I have conducted summer research at, they tell me I am a very competitive applicant for MSTPs; however, that was pre-MCAT.

I am willing to make the necessary compromises to stay together (i.e. start an MD only program and transfer into the MD/PhD program or attend a school in the same city). Do you think we have any shot at making this happen??

Unfortunately, I think if you apply MD only (even in the hopes of transferring into a combined program later), you're exchanging one set of obstacles for another.

I believe that your advisors were right, and that your credentials (strong research background, high GPA) make you a competitive MSTP applicant, with the one exception of your MCAT score.

To be honest, with the increase in the number of applicants, your MCAT may cause you problems even if you apply MD-only. (At my mid-tier school, the number of MD only applicants has been steadily going up about 10-15% each year.) I applied about 5 years ago, and even back then an MCAT of 28 was considered "borderline safe." It's probably less "safe" nowadays, even at the lower tier schools.

Furthermore, what an adcom wants from an MD-only applicant is different from what they expect from an MSTP applicant. All the research that you've done makes me wonder how much time was left over for shadowing, volunteering, community service, etc. The lower tier medical schools have less research, but will compensate for that by having a stronger clinical focus. If you're applying to as an MD-only applicant, you'll have to prove why they should take you with your strong research background over someone who may have a better understanding of the clinical part of medicine. Not to mention (and don't quote me on this) that some schools may "encourage" the inclusion of an LOR from someone that you have shadowed. How much of that kind of stuff (shadowing, volunteering in a hospital, etc.) have you done?

Standardized exams are just not my thing...

Yeah, I know that some people are just bad test takers. I'm not the best test taker in the world, either.

To be honest, I would echo Neuronix's advice to figure out why standardized exams are "not your thing." If you do make it into med school, you'll be facing a fresh hell every month or so, when you have to face yet ANOTHER standardized exam. That's until you get to 3rd year, when you get to face a standardized exam every month or so....except, this time, you'll have had minimal time to study (because all of your time will be spent reading up on your patients, preparing write-ups and presentations, and running down to the ED while you're on call), and the question stems are about 3x longer than what you had during your first and second year.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I also left home at 16 and was self-supporting all through college. I am the first person in my extended family to complete post high school education. This will help you a bit (for the programs that do care, many don't), but does not subsitute for your MCAT score. Unfortunately, URM means certain ethnic groups that as an Israeli immigrant you are not a part of. Disadvantaged doesn't mean a whole lot. I certainly think this is RIDICULOUS, but that's the way it is.



It depends on the program. Some don't, some rarely do, others commonly do or automatically do. Unfortunately, MD schools are even more prone to strict cutoffs than MD/PhD programs! As gstrub alludes to, you may still have a chance at MD/PhD programs with that score, but it's a long shot. A 28 will pass a cut off at in-state MD schools and lower tier private schools though, so you still have a good chance there with that score and the rest of your application. Retake. If you bump that up to say a 34, you will be in good shape for MD/PhD.

This isn't the end of super important, high stress standardized exams in medicine. In this way, the MCAT isn't just some arbitrary hoop to jump through. You will have Step I and Step II coming up in med school. You will have shelf exams for each clinical clerkship that are extreme time crunches, test a ton of material, and come at you every month. You will have in site and board certification exams in residency. I'm sorry, but standardized exams are just a very common and very important part of life in medicine. The MCAT is just a taste of these exams, as they get harder as you go along. Step I will again be extremely important for residency, and if you score low on that it will be difficult for you to obtain a residency that you want. Failing a Step exam in med school really hurts you, and these are harder than the MCAT, and this is why medical schools are hesitant to take "poor test takers". It will be better to identify what's holding you back and work on your standardized test taking skills now. I'd recommend a review course that includes a lot of mock exams.

Programs are not going to look at you and your boyfriend as a package deal in any way. If you were married it MIGHT help you stay together, but it's still a pretty big maybe. Without a MCAT retake it's going to be hard to stay together. It could happen, but it's unlikely. This is again preparation for residency, where even well qualified married couples and families are split up all the time. I have really grown to hate that part of the system. Medicine demands you pretty much give yoru whole life to it, putting everything else second. I think this is RIDICULOUS as well, but that's the way it is. It's much worse within academics as an MD/PhD, as working out family concerns is often impossible until post-residency. Consider that when you're applying.

Anyway, UNLV could happen for both of you. Those cities that have a lot of med schools in a number of tiers that aren't in super competitive locations might work out (like Chicago, NYC, or Philly).

Unless she's Falasha or Sephardic from the Americas.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

The question is not whether or not the OP will struggle in medical school. The point is is that, like it or not, most (if not all) adcoms will make an assumption that you're more likely to struggle in medical school if your MCAT score is subpar.

The number of medical school applications rises dramatically each year. The OP may, in fact, have the potential to do very well in medical school, but if she can't get her application beyond a cursory screen at most medical schools, she may never have the opportunity to prove that. That's the issue here.

Plus, the OP has already admitted that she does not do well on standardized tests. The problem is, almost EVERY test in medical school that counts for anything is a standardized test! So if she's struggling with an important standardized test now (i.e. the MCAT), her exam scores won't reflect her true abilities in the future either. So, in that sense, she will continue to struggle.

I don't really think "standardized test" is a meaningful concept in this case. Most of the tests the OP has encountered previously are tests that require some basic knowledge but more so reasoning that extends from that knowledge. Some people are not good with this on the spot. You might argue that that would make them a bad doctor but that's a whole different argument. The SAT/ACT/MCAT don't require that much knowledge, really. The math is elementary, although the vocabulary can be tricky sometimes. The verbal section on the MCAT essentially requires no outside knowledge.

The USMLE Step 1 & 2 and the clinical shelf exams are very different. There's vast amounts of information there, and the level of reasoning is not all that sophisticated. I really don't think these exams are all that different from the "in house" exams medical schools or undergraduate universities (in life science courses) administer - the information is (relatively) focused, there's massive regurgitation, and some reasoning. On the whole, while they differ in scale, I think Step 1/2 and the shelf exams are a lot closer to course final exams than they are to the SAT or MCAT.