In the valley of doubt

[reluctantoptimism]

---

Members do not see this ad.

How detrimental is failing classes to a medical school application? At present, I mostly have "A"s and "B"s on my transcript but now to the bad part: I have many "W"s due to personal reasons and now I feel like I may fail a course or two this semester due to personal upsets in my life. My current GPA is a 3.5c and a 3.2s but if I take a hit this semester I think I'm sunk. I'm busting my butt and may not fail anything but I won't pass by a wide margin. I have many ECs and have done some unique research but I feel like my application is merely going to end up in the garbage. In addition, I have an IA on my record (which I previously was led to believe had been removed). I'm a URM student who has had to overcome a lot just to get to college (partially due to some poor life decisions). For example, I was very gifted as a child but I let social crap overshadow my ability and technically dropped out of high school.

I know that I want to be a doctor and I know I'm interested in neuroanatomy/neuroscience so I have some idea about my future but I feel like my past is going to impede any forward growth.

Can anyone offer any advice?

 

[libertyyne]

GPA below 3.0 are almost universally lethal for medical schools. You figure it out if failing will place you there.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

GPA below 3.0 are almost universally lethal for medical schools. You figure it out if failing will place you there.

I shouldn't fall below 3.0 in cumulative but I'm not sure about science. I could take more science to raise that GPA. How exactly are GPAs displayed: I used an AMCAS gpa calculator and my all other GPA is like 3.9, cumulative is approx. 3.5 and I think science is 3.2-3.3.

 

[libertyyne]

I shouldn't fall below 3.0 in cumulative but I'm not sure about science. I could take more science to raise that GPA. How exactly are GPAs displayed: I used an AMCAS gpa calculator and my all other GPA is like 3.9, cumulative is approx. 3.5 and I think science is 3.2-3.3.

In order to be competitive greater than 3.5 is needed. I am not talking about semester GPA's only cumulative. Your cumulative total and Science GPA should be greater than 3.5 to be a competitive applicant.

 

[libertyyne]

You realy should avoid failing, go talk to the professor, put in extra effort, rather than accepting you will fail, perhaps you should work to fix that problem before it occurs. Getting into medical school is difficult,It is like climbing a steep mountain, People with 4.0's dont get in some times. Getting into medical school after failing classes becomes like climbing the same mountain with a 200Lb backpack. You tell me what you would prefer to do ?

 

[reluctantoptimism]

In order to be competitive greater than 3.5 is needed. I am not talking about semester GPA's only cumulative. Your cumulative total and Science GPA should be greater than 3.5 to be a competitive applicant.

My cumulative is currently 3.5 but my science is only about 3.2-3.3. I could take about 25 more hours of science (15 before I apply next year) but my GPA after this semester is still very much up in the air. Would it be wise to delay my application until 2018? If I were to get a great MCAT score would this have some compensatory effect as it relates to GPA?

 

[reluctantoptimism]

You realy should avoid failing, go talk to the professor, put in extra effort, rather than accepting you will fail, perhaps you should work to fix that problem before it occurs. Getting into medical school is difficult,It is like climbing a steep mountain, People with 4.0's dont get in some times. Getting into medical school after failing classes becomes like climbing the same mountain with a 200Lb backpack. You tell me what you would prefer to do ?

I may not fail as I've been working extremely diligently as of late but I don't think I'm going to have an excellent semester either. At worst, I'll PROBABLY pass everything but, as we all know, this is basically failure to a premed.

 

[libertyyne]

My cumulative is currently 3.5 but my science is only about 3.2-3.3. I could take about 25 more hours of science (15 before I apply next year) but my GPA after this semester is still very much up in the air. Would it be wise to delay my application until 2018? If I were to get a great MCAT score would this have some compensatory effect as it relates to GPA?

Your current cumulative is 3.5 what will it be after failing a class? Even after taking 25 more hours of straigh 4.0, what will it be?

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Your current cumulative is 3.5 what will it be after failing a class? Even after taking 25 more hours of straigh 4.0, what will it be?

Assuming I pass everything, I'm projecting my new cumulative will be approx. 3.3 but if I get 25 hours of 4.0 I'd be sitting at about 3.45-3.5 depending on the third decimal.

 

[libertyyne]

Assuming I pass everything, I'm projecting my new cumulative will be approx. 3.3 but if I get 25 hours of 4.0 I'd be sitting at about 3.45-3.5 depending on the third decimal.

You have your answer. Do you think it will be easier to raise your grades this semester or maintains 4. O for the next 25 hours?

 

[reluctantoptimism]

You have your answer. Do you think it will be easier to raise your grades this semester or maintains 4. O for the next 25 hours?

I calculated my GPA passed on just PASSING everything but I can still get "B"s and "A"s in some courses so I guess I'll keep grinding this semester and stay as close to 4.0 as possible until I graduate.

If I'm interested in more competitive schools should I consider an SMP (e.g. BU MAMS)? I've noticed that when I take courses which actually interest me I excel; for example, I got the highest score in a physiology course because the material captivated me. If an SMP has medical school coursework and I can excel, how would this affect me getting into competitive schools?

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Not that it makes much difference but my number were off: 3.57c; 3.35s. I guess I need to keep taking science course until I graduate and apply in 2018 as opposed to 2017. If I get the grades I expect, my GPA should be about 3.44c and 3.23s.

How accurate is "application assistant": it says as a black applicant with a 3.57 gpa and a 510 MCAT( proposed), an applicant would have an approx. 87% chance of admittance- this must be off, no?

 

[libertyyne]

Not that it makes much difference but my number were off: 3.57c; 3.35s. I guess I need to keep taking science course until I graduate and apply in 2018 as opposed to 2017. If I get the grades I expect, my GPA should be about 3.44c and 3.23s.

How accurate is "application assistant": it says as a black applicant with a 3.57 gpa and a 510 MCAT( proposed), an applicant would have an approx. 87% chance of admittance- this must be off, no?

Yeah. The application assistant is good, however don't just expect to get a 510 regardless of hoq gifted you are. I'd you are failing classes it may be difficult for you to break 500. On the test. That's why you should keep GPA as high as possible.

 

[candbgirl]

Downward trends are NEVER good! Don't plan on top schools. Just do the best you can and see what happens. You should look into DO medical schools. You should also understand that much of what you take in medical schools is not 'captivating' and just downright hard. What URM community do you represent? Do you have a history of service to said community?
What are your ECs?

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Downward trends are NEVER good! Don't plan on top schools. Just do the best you can and see what happens. You should look into DO medical schools. You should also understand that much of what you take in medical schools is not 'captivating' and just downright hard. What URM community do you represent? Do you have a history of service to said community?
What are your ECs?

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I'm an African American and I have a history of service with this community. What if I'm interested in a competitive specialty (this is not based on conjecture but research and coursework I've taken)? Should I consider an SMP to help my application? In all honesty, I'm not interested in attending an HBCU medical school because I attended an HBCU undergrad and thoroughly hated the experience. I've read about the Boston University MAMS program- is it any good?

I have a wealth of ECs including hospice work, research (at home institution and summer programs), shadowing 2-3 different docs, premed organization leadership, assisting an international cancer organization, etc.

 

[libertyyne]

I'm an African American and I have a history of service with this community. What if I'm interested in a competitive specialty (this is not based on conjecture but research and coursework I've taken)? Should I consider an SMP to help my application? In all honesty, I'm not interested in attending an HBCU medical school because I attended an HBCU undergrad and thoroughly hated the experience. I've read about the Boston University MAMS program- is it any good?

I wouldn't rule out hbcu yet. Get into medical school first and talk about residency later. If you work hard in med school I don't see a reason why you couldn't get what ever residency you wanted.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

I wouldn't rule out hbcu yet. Get into medical school first and talk about residency later. If you work hard in med school I don't see a reason why you couldn't get what ever residency you wanted.

I mean, if I were to be accepted to an HBCU (and had no other option) I would attend, but my experience thus far has shown me that HBCUs are not for those who value organization and properly functioning administration. In addition, if my GPA is as abysmal as everyone says it is, what chance would I even have to be accepted to an HBCU?

 

[libertyyne]

I mean, if I were to be accepted to an HBCU (and had no other option) I would attend, but my experience thus far has shown me that HBCUs are not for those who value organization and properly functioning administration. In addition, if my GPA is as abysmal as everyone says it is, what chance would I even have to be accepted to an HBCU?

Hbcu have wider range of acceptable GPAs, I wanted to dissuade you from performing badly as much as possible. I honestly don't know what it looks like for urm applicants in the application process. I will say that historically speaking due to ses factors urm candidates perform worse then their peers on standardized testing. There is an almost 7 point difference on the old scale between medians in applicants. The average AA matriculant has had a GPA of 3.48 and MCAT of 27.3. But I don't know if those matriculants predominantly went to hbcu.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Hbcu have wider range of acceptable GPAs, I wanted to dissuade you from performing badly as much as possible. I honestly don't know what it looks like for urm applicants in the application process. I will say that historically speaking due to ses factors urm candidates perform worse then their peers on standardized testing. There is an almost 7 point difference on the old scale between medians in applicants. The average AA matriculant has had a GPA of 3.48 and MCAT of 27.3. But I don't know if those matriculants predominantly went to hbcu.

I'm actually one of those rare URMs who is not terrible at standardized testing. For example, I took the ACT without studying and scored a 28 (above my state average)-mind you, I quit attending school early in high school. I just don't feel that my grades reflect my actual ability and intelligence. I've done some unique research (both basic science and clinical) and I know I'm not as stupid as my grades make me seem. I think me dropping out of high school crippled me and time management is my issue. I know I could excel at a top medical school and feel that going to an HBCU would be a bad choice for me. Would an SMP have no compensatory value?

 

[libertyyne]

I'm actually one of those rare URMs who is not terrible at standardized testing. For example, I took the ACT without studying a scored a 28 (above my state average).

I mean if you have a 3.5 and 511+ you could potentially get into many programs. But I don't know what the stats look like for urmapplicants matriculating at top 20 institutions.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

I mean if you have a 3.5 and 511+ you could potentially get into many programs. But I don't know what the stats look like for urmapplicants matriculating at top 20 institutions.

I'm not even shooting for top 20; I had my eyes set on UF. I know my stats are not good enough for UF so I was wondering if a good SMP would be useful?

 

[JustAPhD]

Don't worry about specific medical schools for now. Just focus on your classes and not failing them (ideally getting at least Bs, preferably As). Maintain your GPA, do well on the MCAT and then worry about med school so you can walk through the Valley of Debt instead of Doubt.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

.

 

[NonTrad16]

Plan on applying later (with as many of your courses done as possible, with the best grades you can get) rather than an SMP. Your GPA is not nearly in the territory where that's necessary, as they are basically last resorts (high financial cost, and mediocre performance is viewed very poorly). If you need to take post bac science classes while working, that's likely a less risky route. With a cGPA over 3.5-3.6 and sGPA over 3.3-3.4 and a strong MCAT I think you'd have a reasonable shot... there are a handful of schools with a 10th percentile sGPA in the 3.4 territory. Obviously higher is better...

With that in mind, really focus on the MCAT (when you get there). You mentioned the act... I got a 30 on the act without studying, but it's a whole different ballgame for the MCAT. As a non-trad working and volunteering, I studied 3-4 months with a course and got a score that I needed, but it's better to over prepare if anything. If you need help disciplining yourself, take a course. Be brutally honest with yourself and only take it when you're actually prepared.

 

[candbgirl]

The problems with SMPs are they are really expensive and you have to do really , really well. Like a GPA +3.6. If you can work hard and manage a 3.5 c GPA and +3.3 sGPA along with a >508 you will probably have some success at mid tier private MD schools. What is your state of residency?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

 

[libertyyne]

The problem I have with SMPs is that you are saying you will do better. Being in an SMp will not magically make you more organized or a better student. why do you think your GPA would be any different going to an SmP. That's why it is key just to fix the problem right now rather than say you will perform perfectly on an SmP.

 

[JustAPhD]

The problem I have with SMPs is that you are saying you will do better. Being in an SMp will not magically make you more organized or a better student. why do you think your GPA would be any different going to an SmP. That's why it is key just to fix the problem right now rather than say you will perform perfectly on an SmP.

I agree, but this bothered me:

SMP
SMp
SmP
SmP

 

[libertyyne]

I agree, but this bothered me:

Mobile. My phone kept on fixing it to something else.

 

[Goro]

No med school is doing you any favors by admitting you if you can't handle med school.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

The problems with SMPs are they are really expensive and you have to do really , really well. Like a GPA +3.6. If you can work hard and manage a 3.5 c GPA and +3.3 sGPA along with a >508 you will probably have some success at mid tier private MD schools. What is your state of residency?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

Florida

 

[reluctantoptimism]

The problem I have with SMPs is that you are saying you will do better. Being in an SMp will not magically make you more organized or a better student. why do you think your GPA would be any different going to an SmP. That's why it is key just to fix the problem right now rather than say you will perform perfectly on an SmP.

No med school is doing you any favors by admitting you if you can't handle med school.

I don't think I'm a "bad" student, it's just that I've have some bad time management in the past. In looking at my current GPA (3.57c; 3.35s), I do not believe I'm that far off the mark. Keep in mind that most semesters I've been trying to balance school, ECs, research and family concerns. If I were to be accepted to an SMP or medical school, I'm sure I could excel if I could JUST focus on my studies.I was planning on taking all non-science courses next semester so I could focus on MCAT study, take the MCAT in May and apply next year. According to the application assistant I at least have a decent shot based on historical data.

 

[Shirafune]

I don't think I'm a "bad" student, it's just that I've have some bad time management in the past. In looking at my current GPA (3.57c; 3.35s), I do not believe I'm that far off the mark. Keep in mind that most semesters I've been trying to balance school, ECs, research and family concerns. If I were to be accepted to an SMP or medical school, I'm sure I could excel if I could JUST focus on my studies.I was planning on taking all non-science courses next semester so I could focus on MCAT study, take the MCAT in May and apply next year. According to the application assistant I at least have a decent shot based on historical data.

All applicants have to do this. This won't change during medical school.

Things to focus on: good MCAT score, boosting your GPA, addressing IA (i.e. LORs that speak to your personal development would be helpful). Postbac could help in all regards.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

All applicants have to do this. This won't change during medical school.

Things to focus on: good MCAT score, boosting your GPA, addressing IA (i.e. LORs that speak to your personal development would be helpful). Postbac could help in all regards.

I'm set to graduate next fall so I'm not sure how much my GPA will move. In addition, I don't know if my LOR writers will address anything related to the IA, Any form of postbac which doesn't involve graduate work is out of the question for me (i.e. I cannot afford to pay out of pocket ot take more undergrad courses).

 

[libertyyne]

If you keep your GPA at 3.4 and above. And score 511+ you can make a compelling argument for someone to take a chance on you. Beggers can't be choosers. An SMP carries significant risk as well, you could perform terribly on it and be in a worse situation. It could cost you a lot of money for a degree that isn't worth much. The mcat is the decider if you don't want to go to hbcu.i wouldn't hold up my nose regarding those schools either, Howard has some seller Ortho placements each year.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

If you keep your GPA at 3.4 and above. And score 511+ you can make a compelling argument for someone to take a chance on you. Beggers can't be choosers. An SMP carries significant risk as well, you could perform terribly on it and be in a worse situation. It could cost you a lot of money for a degree that isn't worth much. The mcat is the decider if you don't want to go to hbcu.i wouldn't hold up my nose regarding those schools either, Howard has some seller Ortho placements each year.

I guess that is the game plan- thanks guys!

 

[reluctantoptimism]

If I did a pharmacology PhD, and did well, would this help my application (assuming I get a good MCAT score)?

 

[libertyyne]

If I did a pharmacology PhD, and did well, would this help my application (assuming I get a good MCAT score)?

What on earth are you talking about. Do you realize how long it would take to get that ? It would not help your undergrad GPA.

 

[Shirafune]

If I did a pharmacology PhD, and did well, would this help my application (assuming I get a good MCAT score)?

No, please please please don't get a PhD unless you want research to be a critical and life-long part of your career.

Just focus on your MCAT, get a good score and then reconsider if you need to do GPA repair.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

What on earth are you talking about. Do you realize how long it would take to get that ? It would not help your undergrad GPA.

I was interested in this program before I even considered medicine. You're saying completing a PhD in pharmacology would have a nil effect?

No, please please please don't get a PhD unless you want research to be a critical and life-long part of your career.

Just focus on your MCAT, get a good score and then reconsider if you need to do GPA repair.

What if I was genuinely interested in the PhD?

 

[libertyyne]

I was interested in this program before I even considered medicine. You're saying completing a PhD in pharmacology would have a nil effect?



What if I was genuinely interested in the PhD?

Nil effect to maybe an OK effect on applications. Still won't help your undergradGPA that may screen you out of contention at schools. But the biggest question is: why tho?

 

[Shirafune]

I was interested in this program before I even considered medicine. You're saying completing a PhD in pharmacology would have a nil effect?



What if I was genuinely interested in the PhD?

Completing a PhD is not a stepping stone to get to medical school. People who get PhDs and end up applying to medical school are career changers, not people who decided that 4-5+ years of grueling research will help them get into medical school.

If you're genuinely interested in the PhD, I say go for it, but please talk to some of your basic science professors and get a feeling for what a life in basic sciences academia is like. Do you have research experience? Have you thought about industry after your PhD? There are many questions about career opportunities to consider before pursuing a PhD.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Nil effect to maybe an OK effect on applications. Still won't help your undergradGPA that may screen you out of contention at schools. But the biggest question is: why tho?

I've done research which is closely related and enjoyed every minute of it.

 

[JustAPhD]

I was interested in this program before I even considered medicine. You're saying completing a PhD in pharmacology would have a nil effect?


What if I was genuinely interested in the PhD?

Don't get a PhD for the reason of improving your med application. You could improve your app in those 5ish years in much better ways. If you truly are interested in a PhD then perhaps, but this is coming from left field from our perspective.

 

[libertyyne]

I've done research which is closely related and enjoyed every minute of it.

Go be a PhD then !

 

[Shirafune]

I've done research which is closely related and enjoyed every minute of it.

If you enjoyed every minute of it, the question you have to ask yourself is if you like a career in medicine more, enough to warrant improving your application and applying to medical school. Else, get a PhD.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

Don't get a PhD for the reason of improving your med application. You could improve your app in those 5ish years in much better ways. If you truly are interested in a PhD then perhaps, but this is coming from left field from our perspective.

Say I took 2 years after undergrad and my GPA was subpar but I did well on the MCAT; what would/should I do in these 2 years?

I planned on sitting out next semester and working on my MCAT studying.

 

[NonTrad16]

Say I took 2 years after undergrad and my GPA was subpar but I did well on the MCAT; what would/should I do in these 2 years?

In those two years you'd (a) make sure you actually do well on the MCAT, (b) continue volunteering, (c) work any job to pay bills and (if you want) gain useful experience (in healthcare, peripheral field, research, etc), and (d) sit through an application cycle. 2 gap years means applying after 1, so... it's not really that much time when you consider all the pre-application stuff (primary and secondary applications, shadowing, volunteering, etc).

I applied with ~3.5 GPA/513, and one cycle was basically a waste because I didn't have enough/correct volunteering. Take the time to do things right (which aren't SMP/PhD/etc related)... you don't need some gargantuan accomplishment to rationalize a year or two between undergrad and medical school. Assuming you aren't sitting at home playing video games but instead maintain doing some things to improve your application, you'll be better off for it.

 

[libertyyne]

Say I took 2 years after undergrad and my GPA was subpar but I did well on the MCAT; what would/should I do in these 2 years?

I planned on sitting out next semester and working on my MCAT studying.

Grow. Be passionate about something and commit time to it. You mcat needs to be good though.

 

[reluctantoptimism]

In calculating my cumulative GPAs, I made an error,; in fact my GPAs are both higher and, worse case scenario (unlikely), I could fail all my classes and still be above 3.0 (after this semester my GPA will likely be 3.4c and 3.15s). I would still have approx. 21 hours of science (along with other requirements) I could take which, assuming all As would give me approximately a 3.6c and 3.3s- would I be foolish to still consider an SMP?