Informatics Fellowship

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H0mersimps0n

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Out of all the fellowships that exist the only one I could personally see putting off a year of real salary for is Medical Informatics.

From my googling the only serious one I can find is Mt Sinai which is 2 years (hell no) and some program in Indiana (no thanks).

FRIEDA was usless unless I'm missing something.

Anyone else find anything else out there? Looking for a 1 year program in the mid-atlantic area. Possibly somewhere more south.

Thanks!
 
A brief update on emergency informatics fellowships.

Clinical Informatics was just approved by ABMS as a board-certified sub-specialty. http://www.amia.org/news-and-publications/press-release/ci-is-subspecialty

There are several informatics fellowships out there, several run out of the department of emergency medicine:

Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center
Mount Sinai
University of Arizona

I believe all are 2 years, which is the standard length for informatics fellowships. It would be difficult to design, implement, and study informatics interventions without training of this length.
 
Regenstrief in Indianapolis is fairly strong/respected and Indy is actually a very nice little city with great cost of living. It does seem to hinge on a little more coding ability, which may not be your bag though.
 
I am somewhat curious how this "fellowship" training dovetails in with all the established degree-granting graduate programs out there. I'm getting a Master's degree part-time while still working as attending faculty, and - if for some reason I wasn't tired enough of giving the ABMS money - it ought to be appropriate for me to sit for the informatics boards.
 
I'm curious about this also. I spent 8 years in information systems and hold an MS in that field from my previous career. I have an intense interest in this area and the thought of having to do a fellowship or obtain any additional "training" is a difficult pill to swallow.

Surely they might grandfather me in after residency? One could hope... I just think 2 years of fellowship would be completely unnecessary. I just couldn't do it with the debt that I currently have unless I was able to work plenty of shifts as an EM attending...

Sigh..

Xaelia, if you find out any more information about the grandfathering process, please let me know.
 
I actually just sent SDN a request for a new forum to be created for "Clinical Informatics". I think there are probably enough of us on here among the various specialties to make it an active forum.
 
Ok, here's straight from the horse's mouth:


Dr. Groove:

Thank you for you inquiry regarding Clinical Informatics.

Entrance to the examination via the practice pathway has a number of requirements including the requirement that the clinician submit documentation that, in the preceding 5 years, they have devoted 25% of their practice for at least 36 months to the practice of Clinical Informatics at the subspecialty level.

While your prior training/experience in Management Information Systems will certainly be of benefit, it would not meet the requirement for 36 months of Clinical Informatics Practice at the subspecialty level until after you had completed your Emergency Residency and included a significant portion of your practice to Clinical Informatics for at least 36 months.

Another option would be to complete a 24 month Clinical Informatics fellowship after you complete your EM residency.
 
I'm curious about this also. I spent 8 years in information systems and hold an MS in that field from my previous career. I have an intense interest in this area and the thought of having to do a fellowship or obtain any additional "training" is a difficult pill to swallow.

Surely they might grandfather me in after residency? One could hope... I just think 2 years of fellowship would be completely unnecessary. I just couldn't do it with the debt that I currently have unless I was able to work plenty of shifts as an EM attending...

Sigh..

Xaelia, if you find out any more information about the grandfathering process, please let me know.

Groove,

I come from a similar background and experience in IT as a consultant and systems administrator . I am a PGY1 and have been thinking about the Informatics Fellowship after completing residency; however, I have a loans to pay off and I'm not getting any younger.

Just what are the benefits of Informatics training? Higher Salary? Administrative Position? I'm trying to get a sense of the benefits and risks and make an analysis in the next 3 years.
 
Groove,

I come from a similar background and experience in IT as a consultant and systems administrator . I am a PGY1 and have been thinking about the Informatics Fellowship after completing residency; however, I have a loans to pay off and I'm not getting any younger.

Just what are the benefits of Informatics training? Higher Salary? Administrative Position? I'm trying to get a sense of the benefits and risks and make an analysis in the next 3 years.

I hear you brother... I'm older too and am considering these same dilemmas. The benefits would be that you can gain subspecialty training which would obviously be a boon as the field grows and the health field looks for experts with more formal training and credentialing. The disadvantage in not doing the fellowship is that.... it might be more difficult to break into the informatics field and over time... board certification would be viewed upon favorably. Probably more so in an academic environment, but the training in and of itself would be valuable. I mean, I've designed data centers and network infrastructures, migrated complex internal processing systems to various new technologies, etc.. but I've never, for instance... implemented an EHR system, or any of the multitude of related healthcare specific applications of the field. Would it be any more difficult? Probably not. Would I need 2 years of fellowship to learn the needed skills? No. But with these board sub specialties, you have to learn to play by their rules. Plus, even if the 2 years wasn't needed from a practical standpoint, you would still gain valuable additional training. A hospital would be reticent to let you migrate an EHR system if you couldn't provide experience specific to the healthcare industry.

Ultimately there are a couple main ways you could go...

1)Academic, research oriented informatics track
2)Chief Medical Informations Officer for a hospital or related position within a group, etc..

You could even apply the training in an entrepreuneurial aspect.

Your salary could possibly be higher, but I don't know. I've seen anywhere from 250K to 600K for a CMIO. I would encourage you to do it more if you have an intense interest and intend on being involved in the field for the remainder of your career.

Personally, I always want to do clinical EM as long as I can. I don't think I would ever choose to do something like this full time and neglect my clinical skills as an Emergency Physician, after all, I still love the field. However, it would be a great bridge between your existing IT background and clinical skills as a physician. As you got older, you could theoretically migrate more towards the tech aspect and less from the clinical aspect. I think working in Informatics would be easier to do than EM at 65 but who knows.

Regardless, give it some thought. I'm trying to figure out salary information for the various fellowships and moonlighting abilities, etc.. Just how much time the fellowship requires of you. If it doesn't require all of your time, and you only have minimal clinical duties in the ED, then you could essentially moonlight as much as you could handle to augment your income while you completed the fellowship requirements.

I would be reticent to commit to 2 more years with the standard 75K fellowship pay and no ability/time to moonlight or work outside of the institution. It just wouldn't make financial sense with my debt burden, but my impression so far is that Informatics is not like Critical Care or some of the other time intensive fellowships. Plus, it would be a far easier learning curve for someone with an extensive IT background.
 
I would be reticent to commit to 2 more years with the standard 75K fellowship pay and no ability/time to moonlight or work outside of the institution. It just wouldn't make financial sense with my debt burden, but my impression so far is that Informatics is not like Critical Care or some of the other time intensive fellowships. Plus, it would be a far easier learning curve for someone with an extensive IT background.

I know nothing about the actual time commitment for the informatics fellowship but I imagine it's not far off from what those of us in research fellowships have which leaves plenty of time for moonlighting. I personally work about 4 nights a month but I have colleagues who work as many as 8 shifts a month which, at the rate we get paid, is worth about $100K/yr. I imagine you could do this during an informatics fellowship without any trouble.
 
I know nothing about the actual time commitment for the informatics fellowship but I imagine it's not far off from what those of us in research fellowships have which leaves plenty of time for moonlighting. I personally work about 4 nights a month but I have colleagues who work as many as 8 shifts a month which, at the rate we get paid, is worth about $100K/yr. I imagine you could do this during an informatics fellowship without any trouble.

That's really good information to know as that would significantly influence my decision. I think I'm leaning towards the fellowship at this point... Sigh... I'm never going to be done with some form of "training".
 
I went a different route from a fellowship - I'm enrolling in a Master's in Biomedical Informatics part-time while working as attending faculty. It will take me longer to finish, but at least I'm not sacrificing income while getting the additional educational credentials. More academic than applied, but that's where my area of interest lies. I'd rather choke on my own bile than be a CMIO.

It also helps that there's an AHRQ Training Program grant available to buy off ~$50k of salaried time so I can take more classes - hopefully I'll get it.
 
Ok, I've researched and spoken to some Informatics Fellowship directors about this whole fellowship track, the new board certification and the future of Clinical informatics in general.

Xaelia, I think you've got a great plan with the MS, just keep in mind that to satisfy the requirements for ability to sit for the board, you need a significant percentage of your practice to be actively involved in health informatics and I'm not sure if the MS counts for that. You might want to check and see. I've got some contact information if you need it. The requirements have been 2 yr fellowship, or 3-5 years active involvement. How long that will last is up in the air. The general consensus seems to be that the fellowship will be more important for those interested in academic informatics involvement than for those of us more interested in the practical side of things.

I've also learned that if you're interested in doing this... don't do it for monetary reasons. I had a director tell me verbatim that there's just no way to earn more in a clinical informatics career than by working an ED shift, period. In fact, deciding to do both will "most of the time" he said, lower your annual income, so it's purely for the enjoyment and potential long term flexibility if you reach a point where you want to withdraw more from clinical practice.

There is still a huge amount of "unknown" about the specialty, hashing out a core curriculum, figuring out what the overall value or use of the fellowship will be or if it will even be required for most jobs utilizing the skill set since there are so few people out there doing this sort of thing. My opinion so far is that it's too premature a fellowship right now to have any practical or significant value if you already have prior training or are already involved in a MS with a similar curriculum. You've got plenty of time to get involved, get your hands dirty and satisfy the requirements to sit for the board, at least for the near future. I seriously doubt that if your end goal is to take on a CMIO role later on in life that you would be required to have a fellowship if you had the experience and had stayed actively involved in the field.

For myself... I love IT, but I love EM more, and the practicality of it all is that I have a gigantic amount of loans to pay off, so clinical practice comes first and I simply can't sacrifice a fellowship salary, nor do I need a MS since I already have one in related field and most of it would be redundant, not to mention almost a decade of experience that could easily be applied to healthcare with some additional self learning. Most fellowships are funded through clinical shifts, so you can expect to work 6-8 shifts/mo for the 2yrs while you are a fellow, and that's round about the usual fellowship salary of $75K. I did ask about moonlighting and most directors will allow this if you can meet your requirements, but admitted that you would more than likely be stretched thin.

Anyway, I know there are a few interested in this route, and have received a few PM's so I thought I'd update this thread with what I've learned.

I'm going to maintain my interest and on the side involvement, but primarily will be an EP (which is what I love most, even though IT is a hobby and previous career), probably will aim to be the "IT guy" of the group, slowly get involved on some hospital IT committees and stay involved to some degree but have decided not to pursue it in part time or any major involvement. I'm definitely not interested in the academic side of the field, but for those of you that are, this field and fellowship deserves more of your attention/research.

Hope that helps.
 
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