Institutional Action - Disciplinary Record Request

[Rolling]

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Hi everyone,

I was wondering if medical schools will at any point in the application request a copy of your disciplinary record like they run a criminal background check. Is this standard practice? I know some medical schools do, like Indiana/Washu, but I wasn't sure if all medical schools request a copy of this. Does anyone know? Do they request it before an interview? Before matriculation? If they don't do request it, is this simply a matter of self-disclosure?

Furthermore can someone what falls under IA?

 

[Local Native]

Isn't the disciplinary record part of the transcript for most undergraduate schools?

 

[aSagacious]

I don't know the answer to your first question (though I'd like to suggest the generic "honesty is the best policy").

To answer you second question, from p. 29 of the AMCAS Instruction Manual

Institutional Action
You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

If you answer Yes, you may use the space provided to explain; this space is 1325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length.

If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record.

Failure to provide accurate information in answering this question or, if applicable, in completing the form provided by the school, will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials.

Applicants who become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application must inform their designated medical school(s) within ten (10) business days of the date of the occurrence.

 

[Rolling]

I am just curious about the policy. I totally agree that honesty is the best policy. I just want to know what is considered to be "IA"

 

[zamzee]

No. They only do it if you put "yes" down on the IA section of the AMCAS. My friend was on the adcom of a top 10 school and he says they very rarely thoroughly check people's university records because they have better things to do with their time, like actually heal people. Also, not all disciplinary actions are visible on your transcript. This varies from school to school, but most of the time only really big breaches of conduct (cheating, etc) are on your transcript.

 

[zamzee]

If you've ever gotten a letter from the university stating that you have breached the code of conduct, that is an IA.

 

[Rolling]

How would I know if I got a letter? If anything is on my "disciplinary record" does that mean I had an IA?

 

[aSagacious]

How would I know if I got a letter? If anything is on my "disciplinary record" does that mean I had an IA?

If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record.

Schools have a disciplinary record discrete from your official transcript, though significant events often make their way onto your transcript. Whether or not the med school will request the disciplinary record is uncertain (but according to Zamzee it is uncommon). In any case, if you contact your registrar and find a formal IA (even if it has been expunged) it would be in your best interest to disclose the event.

 

[Rolling]

Does anyone else have any inputs?

 

[aSagacious]

Does anyone else have any inputs?

Really? What do you want to hear? Yes, they'll never catch you if don't check 'yes' on the IA box, so just cover it up and you'll be fine. Happy now?

 

[Rolling]

I'm just asking if schools will ask for someone to release disciplinary records upon being admitted into a school.

 

[LifeTake2]

I'm just asking if schools will ask for someone to release disciplinary records upon being admitted into a school.

And to repeat:

what are you trying to hide? Tell the truth on your application and it doesn't matter.

Obviously you did something, since you are hellbent on getting us to tell you if you can get away with lying.

Think of it this way: you get in, you borrow $200K in loans and 2 weeks before graduation they find out, you can be expelled and will never attend medical school. Why risk it?

 

[Rolling]

Look, I didn't do anything wrong. I am asking for a friend of mine, I am not trying to get away with lying, I am trying to see if my friend needs to disclose the information or not. She doesn't know if its IA or not, so I'm trying to get some opinions.

 

[sector9]

Look, I didn't do anything wrong. I am asking for a friend of mine, I am not trying to get away with lying, I am trying to see if my friend needs to disclose the information or not. She doesn't know if its IA or not, so I'm trying to get some opinions.

Ah, the famous "The eBay auctions for SDN accounts are way too expensive so I made this thread for my friend" excuse.

Your question has already been answered. He/She/It/You/Your friend probably needs to disclose the IA if you have to ask the question. If, after reading the AMCAS instructions already diligently posted in this thread, you are still confused, then ask the school official in charge of the offense (also posted in this thread).

 

[music2doc]

Look, I didn't do anything wrong. I am asking for a friend of mine, I am not trying to get away with lying, I am trying to see if my friend needs to disclose the information or not. She doesn't know if its IA or not, so I'm trying to get some opinions.

Dude, you'd better work on your lying before interview time or there's no chance in h*ll you'd get away with your IA even if a school didn't verify things. Seriously, just disclose it. You're a terrible liar (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

[UnclePhil]

Look, I didn't do anything wrong. I am asking for a friend of mine, I am not trying to get away with lying, I am trying to see if my friend needs to disclose the information or not. She doesn't know if its IA or not, so I'm trying to get some opinions.

How do you not know if it's an IA or not? Did the school not file any sort of notice against her for whatever she did? If not, then it's not an institutional action... because the institution didn't take any action.

 

[LizzyM]

Some schools pre-med LOR will specifically state in the LOR that the student has not had an IA or that they did. Proceed at your own risk.

And not getting a pre-med advisor/committee LOR when one is available is another red flag.

 

[zamzee]

If you don't know if it's an IA or not you should order your own copy of your official transcript and check that there's nothing on it. You should also request a copy of your own disciplinary record and see what's on there. It's pretty obvious what an IA is because you get written up for it. The administration sends you a formal letter stating that you have breached the code of conduct, it's not like you just get scolded verbally by someone - it's very official.

That said, you can risk not telling schools if you want to. I'm not sure how it'll work out but you can try. If your record is expunged and it is TRULY expunged then there's no disciplinary record at all. The IA is basically erased from the school's memory, and you can technically pretend it never happened if you wanted to. But some schools only kind of expunge it, like they take it off your transcript but there's still a record. You might wanna check with your school. It's still risky, and only viable if you're ABSOLUTELY sure of what's on your record.

 

[Jamie561]

And to repeat:

what are you trying to hide? Tell the truth on your application and it doesn't matter.

Obviously you did something, since you are hellbent on getting us to tell you if you can get away with lying.

Think of it this way: you get in, you borrow $200K in loans and 2 weeks before graduation they find out, you can be expelled and will never attend medical school. Why risk it?

This has never happened and will never happen because student records are protected under FERPA. Gun away, though.

 

[dmf2682]

I was curious to see if I had any ghosts in the closet that I didn't know about so i called the Dean of students office at my undergrad and asked if i had anything negative on my records. They were happy to check for me, and came back with an answer pretty quickly. Perhaps your friend can do something similar.

 

[Rolling]

I will point her in that direction. To be clear, she doesn't know about SDN.

 

[ppappui]

I will point her in that direction. To be clear, she doesn't know about SDN.

Of course she doesn't, but you do. I think that's what matters 👍

 

[Rolling]

Do all schools ask ALL applications for their institutional action records or is this ONLY done when a student discloses that they had an IA?

 

[music2doc]

Do all schools ask ALL applications for their institutional action records or is this ONLY done when a student discloses that they had an IA?

Your question has been answered many times. It depends. You need to report an IA if you have one. Period. End of discussion. Why are you still asking the same question over and over again?

 

[HumbleMD]

Your question has been answered many times. It depends. You need to report an IA if you have one. Period. End of discussion. Why are you still asking the same question over and over again?

👍
The number of cheating little mofos trying to get around reporting it is shocking on SDN.

I suppose it's no surprise that someone who saw nothing wrong with cheating in the first place sees no problem in deceptively not reporting it, or trying to figure out ways of getting around it. Lord knows lying your way out of a lie always works...

 

[Rolling]

I did not cheat in any way. Some of you are hellbent on character assassination.

 

[HumbleMD]

I did not cheat in any way. Some of you are hellbent on character assassination.

Buddy, don't worry about it if you didn't cheat and it truly is your friend (I believe you). But I'd be just as indignant with your cheating friend as the people here. AMCAS says report it if one was caught cheating. Point your friend to that and stop trying to help them. Recall this cheater is now your competition for med school.

 

[sector9]

I did not cheat in any way. Some of you are hellbent on character assassination.

ETA: Shoulda used this one on the thread about the kid who impersonated the PA...

 

[ShockDoctrine]

Read the 2012-2013 MSAR book. Either the schools or AMCAS do a nationwide criminal background check. They'll find out either way.

 

[Rolling]

I don't believe the alleged incident would show up on a criminal background check seeing as how it doesn't involve the "cops"

 

[DCBFan]

I had an institutional action (failing out) that I self-reported on AMCAS. You have to explain it on the primary, and a lot of schools will have you explain it again on the secondary. A small number of schools (3 that I applied to: Boston, MCW, and temple) went on to require a letter from the dean or whatever at my undergrad about the issue. I believe this is standard practice for everyone who checks the box. It's also an enormous pain since I no longer live near that school.

I obviously am not qualified to guess whether any schools do snooping of their own. I'd like to cast another vote for self-reporting, however. I think most med schools don't expect us to be perfect, but they wont tolerate lying.

 

[LifeTake2]

This has never happened and will never happen because student records are protected under FERPA. Gun away, though.

Not gunning, though I love being called out by someone not willing to check their facts first 🙂

FERPA does not hide your records from "School officials with legitimate educational interest" and any medical school you apply to or attend would meet this criteria clearly. And NO you don't have to give consent.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html

 

[LizzyM]

Not gunning, though I love being called out by someone not willing to check their facts first 🙂

FERPA does not hide your records from "School officials with legitimate educational interest" and any medical school you apply to or attend would meet this criteria clearly. And NO you don't have to give consent.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html

Hmmm...no. "School officials with a legitimate educational interest..." would mean officials at your school -- one you currently attend. It doesn't refer to a school you do not yet attend. To release records to those who don't have a legitimate educational interest (including admissions at another school), you must slign a release form. You'll do this every time you ask to have a transcript sent somewhere. You have the right to read letters of recommendation written about you unless you waive that right (almost everyone does).

 

[sector9]

Hmmm...no. "School officials with a legitimate educational interest..." would mean officials at your school -- one you currently attend. It doesn't refer to a school you do not yet attend. To release records to those who don't have a legitimate educational interest (including admissions at another school), you must slign a release form. You'll do this every time you ask to have a transcript sent somewhere. You have the right to read letters of recommendation written about you unless you waive that right (almost everyone does).

Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record. However, FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to the following parties or under the following conditions (34 CFR § 99.31):

• School officials with legitimate educational interest;
  
• Other schools to which a student is transferring;
• Specified officials for audit or evaluation purposes;
• Appropriate parties in connection with financial aid to a student;
• Organizations conducting certain studies for or on behalf of the school;
• Accrediting organizations;
• To comply with a judicial order or lawfully issued subpoena;
• Appropriate officials in cases of health and safety emergencies; and
• State and local authorities, within a juvenile justice system, pursuant to specific State law.

Source: US Dep. of Ed. website http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html

Wouldn't that be considered transferring once the med school accepts you?

ETA: The actual wording of the law below:

(a) An educational agency or institution may disclose personally identifiable information from an education record of a student without the consent required by Sec. 99.30 if the disclosure meets one or more of the following conditions: [Snip] (2) The disclosure is, subject to the requirements of Sec. 99.34, to officials of another school, school system, or institution of postsecondary education where the student seeks or intends to enroll.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/julqtr/34cfr99.31.htm
It sounds like med schools have the right to request such records without student permission even during the application process, since by applying you could say that the student is "seeking to enroll" at the school. Whether they decide to do so on a regular basis is a different story

 

[LizzyM]

I think that transfer of records occurs quite seamlessly thanks to this law for students in public k-12 schools such as transfers between 8th grade and HS.

On the other hand, my own (private) university won't send an undergrad transcript to my grad program without a signed consent from the student or alumnus.

Even if something is permitted by law, it might not happen due to caution on the part of university administration who are loath to risk a violation of federal law.

 

[LifeTake2]

I think that transfer of records occurs quite seamlessly thanks to this law for students in public k-12 schools such as transfers between 8th grade and HS.

On the other hand, my own (private) university won't send an undergrad transcript to my grad program without a signed consent from the student or alumnus.

Even if something is permitted by law, it might not happen due to caution on the part of university administration who are loath to risk a violation of federal law.

Based upon LizzyM's interpretation, I'll revise my opinions of the understanding of FERPA.

 

[sector9]

I think that transfer of records occurs quite seamlessly thanks to this law for students in public k-12 schools such as transfers between 8th grade and HS.

On the other hand, my own (private) university won't send an undergrad transcript to my grad program without a signed consent from the student or alumnus.

Even if something is permitted by law, it might not happen due to caution on the part of university administration who are loath to risk a violation of federal law.

Ah interesting. I guess that makes sense since med schools still have students send their transcripts rather than just requesting the records on their own.

I think Loma Linda's website said that they will automatically get the transcript from students who did their undergraduate work at Loma Linda but all other students needed to send transcripts prior to matriculation.

Anyway, it looks like it may be possible for med schools to do it based on the law but none of them actually request student records without permission

 

[HumbleMD]

Ah interesting. I guess that makes sense since med schools still have students send their transcripts rather than just requesting the records on their own.

I think Loma Linda's website said that they will automatically get the transcript from students who did their undergraduate work at Loma Linda but all other students needed to send transcripts prior to matriculation.

Anyway, it looks like it may be possible for med schools to do it based on the law but none of them actually request student records without permission

This is moot. Matriculation is contingent upon your med school getting your transript/records to assure you actually graduated. Regardless, if you failed to release it, med schools wouldn't allow you to matriculate.

 

[Rolling]

They request transcripts I know that, but do ALL schools specifically request disciplinary personal records in order to matriculate?

 

[music2doc]

They request transcripts I know that, but do ALL schools specifically request disciplinary personal records in order to matriculate?

Your school can include it. Med schools may or may not request it. Just report it and stop trying to work around the system. Stop trying to CHEAT! Haven't you learned ANYTHING from your mistake?!

 

[Rolling]

Stop making assumptions regarding this hypothetical student's behavior. This hypothetical student did not CHEAT as you've put it.

 

[UnclePhil]

Stop making assumptions regarding this hypothetical student's behavior. This hypothetical student did not CHEAT as you've put it.

Um... there are no assumptions, "he" is trying to find away around reporting it which is trying to cheat the system since you are asked (very directly and explicitly) to report all IAs on your application.

 

[HumbleMD]

They request transcripts I know that, but do ALL schools specifically request disciplinary personal records in order to matriculate?

Hopefully just the one that you try to matriculate at.

Dude, whatever the IA is, you need to own up to it and report to schools, as AMCAS told you to. No one here is going to try to help you lie or cover-up.

 

[Rolling]

No one is being asked to be helped to lie. The question simply relates to the procedures by different schools. The fact that you would wish that upon someone is amazing.

 

[shinbeats]

No one is being asked to be helped to lie. The question simply relates to the procedures by different schools. The fact that you would wish that upon someone is amazing.

You're not going to get away with the IA and that is amazing.

 

[FredAstaire]

Rollings, let me give you some experience first hand.

I had run-afoul of a student conduct policy at a new college I was planning on attend even before the matriculation date. I eventually decided to withdraw from that university 1 week before classes even started, but I still have to declare it on AMCAS.

 

[UnclePhil]

No one is being asked to be helped to lie. The question simply relates to the procedures by different schools. The fact that you would wish that upon someone is amazing.

No one is being asked to be helped to lie? Are you dense? If no one is trying to get around this issue, you wouldn't even be starting this process because it doesn't matter.

This is how it goes. Tell your "friend" that she will only need to provide university documentation if needed. WHY does she need to know beforehand whether or not a school will request it or not? If she is just going the full self-disclosure route, then it hardly matters, if they ask her for them, she can provide them when they ask, if not then it's not needed. No need to preemptively provide records them them.

We don't know what every single school's policy is. Stop asking, we can't tell you because no one here knows.

 

[Rolling]

Uncle Phil, to answer your question:

This student is not trying to get away with anything. Everything has and will be declared. However, my question is simply about the request for records, because those actually provide such vague information so as to, in my opinion, inaccurately describe such incidents. Thus this is a VERY important question. People always assume the worst.

 

[LifeTake2]

:troll:

 

[HumbleMD]

Uncle Phil, to answer your question:

This student is not trying to get away with anything. Everything has and will be declared. However, my question is simply about the request for records, because those actually provide such vague information so as to, in my opinion, inaccurately describe such incidents. Thus this is a VERY important question. People always assume the worst.

No one can understand why, if properly declaring an IA, and then explaining it in said declaration or secondaries, why a school then seeing the report would be an issue. That's why schools ask you to explain the IA. Therefore, this is a non-issue and you are wasting your time. (P.S., they're also looking for you to take ownership/responsibility of your actions explain what you've learned - things you clearly need to work on).

The reason why your "friend" seems to want to know which schools request those records is so they may avoid applying or matriculating there, or disclosing to only those schools and not others.

As Dr. Phil said, few people here know or remember, and fewer people here are interested in helping "your friend" not report the IA through AMCAS or in secondaries.

The truth shall set you free. Now friggin' drop it, man up, report the IA, and explain it in your secondaries.